billbrooks50
(recently joined)
01/12/11 04:54 PM
Does my wife deserve spousal support?

We have been married for 10 years. She has a biological child age 15. My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE. An example is a 1200 per month payment on one of her 2 automobiles. We have no common property, meaning no real estate holdings, savings or investments. I have zero debt and want to keep it that way. She is now wanting me to support her following the divorce. I am already volunteering to support my step daughter until she is 18 or beyond but I am wondering if I am required to support my wife's lifestyle/DEBT which she has established AGAINST MY CONSENT.

1966Gal
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/12/11 05:43 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Maybe. What is the difference in your incomes? How much does she make? How much do you make? You have absolutley Zero assets? No home equity? No 401k? No pension? No savings? Nothing??

I hope you've filed for divorce already. 10 years is the magic number in alimony. The longer you let this marriage continue, the more likely you are to pay.

Start documenting everything. You are going to have to prove that her debts didn't involve you at all.


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/12/11 05:53 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Don't pay for her daughter. That's her mother and father's job. If you want to give the kid $$$ directly do so, but by no means agree to anything that gives your soon to be ex the $$$.

Annie7676
(old hand)
01/12/11 08:14 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

I have no idea what the rules are but seek legal counsel and find out if you can put in the divorce settlement that she is responsible for her debt that you legally have nothing to do with it. Not sure if you can do that but a lawyer can tell you.

As for paying for the daughter, I agree with the other post, give her money, the daughter directly. Her support should come from her mother and the bio father. If you wish to give her money for something set up a 529, get the write off and put it in there.

Did your wife work during your marriage? And again 10 yrs seems to be the deadline for support. I would have all of what you will do hammered out in the divorce.

Spousal support is a testy issue. SAHM's usually get it but from what I gather there is a limit on it now, not forever like it used to be.

Good luck.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/13/11 03:32 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

First of all, you don't have zero debt. ANY debt incurred during a marriage is JOINT debt. If you were against it, you should have left BEFORE it got so high.

As for spousal support, that is all going to depend on your state and the disparity in income. If incomes are similar, then spousal support isn't likely. But it may be ordered for a certain time period to cover your portion of the debt since the joint debt is just in her name. You aren't going to get out of paying a share of the joint debt unless your stbx agrees to it.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 11:04 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Anything acquired during the marriage is presumed marital and, usually, the peesumption is for equal division, that includes assets (eg. cars, retirment plans, furniture) and debts. It matters little in whose name they were acquired or incurred.

In most states, there is no ten year threshhold for spousal maintenance. By and large, that is a fiction in most states. Whether any spousal support is paid depends on a great number of factors, not the least of which is the respective earning capacities of the parties, the health of the parties, and the length of marriage. There is far too little information in your post to even begin making an informed opinion related to spousal support.


hanzblinx
(enthusiast)
01/13/11 11:11 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

For the sake of Pete pay your stepdaughter directly. Do not pay CS to the mother.

You need to provide more info before anyone can predict your alimony situation. For all we know you could be Bill Gates or you could be flipping burgers at McDonalds. It makes a difference.

In my case I was married 12 years and pay 1.5 years of alimony payments (actually 2 years if you include temp orders). Of course zero is better, gives the ex wife a chance show off how independent she is lol.

As far as debts go, should have known better than to marry a woman. They love that plastic.


javajunkiee
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 11:44 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

She'll probably get a minimum of short term support. You're also not debt free - assets and debts accumulated during the marriage are usually split during divorce. The step daughter, while its admirable for you to continue supporting her, shouldn't be your responsibility. At the very least make sure her mother and father are taking care of their responsibilities to her BEFORE you start handing out $$.

If your wife has the ability to work, she should get a job and support herself, and her spending habits. Unfortunately however, unless you have a very good attorney, you're likely to end up paying more than you want to (or should).


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 11:57 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"She'll probably get a minimum of short term support."

There is absolutely nothing on which to base that opinion I am afraid.


coco
(recently joined)
01/13/11 12:33 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]"She'll probably get a minimum of short term support."

There is absolutely nothing on which to base that opinion I am afraid. [/quote]

Absolutely correct. In Colorado, he could be ordered LIFETIME alimony for a 10 year marriage.

What state?


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 12:50 PM
Absolute Nonsense

There is no information about income or earning capacity. Regardless of state, there is no information in the post that supports any conclusion about spousal support.

Even in Colorado, there is no 10 year threshhold for permanent maointenance or otherwise. THe statutes state as follows:

"Without regard to marital misconduct, the court will consider all relevant factors when making an award including, but not limited to: (1) The financial status of the party seeking maintenance; (2) The time necessary to gain employment or establish earning capacity (3) The standard of living enjoyed during the marriage; (4) The duration of the marriage; (5) The age and the health condition of the spouse seeking maintenance; and (6) The ability of the spouse from whom maintenance is sought to meet his or her needs while meeting those of the spouse seeking maintenance. (Colorado Statutes - Article 10 - Sections: 14-10-114, 14-10-117)"

No information has been provided regarding the factors listed for Colorado. While it is possible for a court to award permnent spousal support on a 10 year marriage, it is also possible for a court to award no spousal support on a 30 year marriage. Anything is possible depending on the underlying facts.


yregna
(veteran)
01/13/11 12:54 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

If she incurred debt during the marriage without your consent, YOU OWE THE MONEY. Sorry bud, that is what you signed up for when You signed that marriage contract. Get out of this marriage NOW, 10 years is the magic payoff number for the vagina.

Force her out of the home if possible. take all her money if possible, it will make it harder for her to get an attorney. Take any assets you can and get them as far away from her as possible. GET THOSE CREDIT CARD ACCOUNTS CLOSED ASAP. If your income is higher than hers, quit your job ASAP, otherwise you have a target on your back.

If you give that kid ANY MONEY you could be paying for her until she is 21 by law. Don't do it, ever. If you manage to get away from this woman with even 1/3 of your wallet, you'll be lucky. What state are you in, so we can all see how screwed you are...


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 12:58 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

I guess we should have expected an appearance by the clown on this subhject.

gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 02:02 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Well, she ran up debt without his knowledge, which he will now be responsible, but somehow is "clown"ish to suggest he financial damage HER as well? Why is that?

Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 02:25 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Where does it say that anything was done without his knowledge?

english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 04:29 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Gr8 just loves to read what he wants into situations.

gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 04:45 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Right here:

"My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE."

In the first post.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 04:46 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

And you just LOVE to snipe at someone without adding anything to the conversation. Don't you have a vagina to sell, or more to the point RENT, to someone?

elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 04:47 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Actually the poster said "My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE." So it would seem he had some knowledge (though its not certain), but did not have the ability to stop her. Obviously when she showed up with two new cars he knew she had incurred debt - but does that really count as having knowledge?

He's divorcing her - he is taking about the only course of action you can take when you find out a spouse has done that.


coco
(recently joined)
01/13/11 06:02 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]There is no information about income or earning capacity. Regardless of state, there is no information in the post that supports any conclusion about spousal support.

Even in Colorado, there is no 10 year threshhold for permanent maointenance or otherwise. THe statutes state as follows:

"Without regard to marital misconduct, the court will consider all relevant factors when making an award including, but not limited to: (1) The financial status of the party seeking maintenance; (2) The time necessary to gain employment or establish earning capacity (3) The standard of living enjoyed during the marriage; (4) The duration of the marriage; (5) The age and the health condition of the spouse seeking maintenance; and (6) The ability of the spouse from whom maintenance is sought to meet his or her needs while meeting those of the spouse seeking maintenance. (Colorado Statutes - Article 10 - Sections: 14-10-114, 14-10-117)"

No information has been provided regarding the factors listed for Colorado. While it is possible for a court to award permnent spousal support on a 10 year marriage, it is also possible for a court to award no spousal support on a 30 year marriage. Anything is possible depending on the underlying facts. [/quote]

You obviously know nothing about Colorado.

Permanent, Lifetime "Spousal Maintenance" is common here, even for marriages of only 10 years, and it *will* be awarded in marriages over 20 years if the parties cannot come to their own agreement, if the income disparity is greater than about 15%.

You are correct, the statutes say nothing about duration, but decades of case law has made this so. Give a family law attorney in Colorado a call and ask them what the odds are of permanent lifetime alimony being awarded to a WOMAN (not to a man, but a WOMAN) in a marriage of over 10 years where the woman is a SAHM. Ask the same question about 20 years. A very high percentage of 10-20 year marriages result in lifetime alimony, and nearly ALL over 20 years get lifetime. Again, I am only talking about women getting alimony. If the genders are reversed, magically the alimony is short duration, if any at all.

Get back to us after consulting a Colorado Family Law attorney.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 06:07 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Umm, you DO know that Maury IS a family law attorney, right?

coco
(recently joined)
01/13/11 06:08 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]Umm, you DO know that Maury IS a family law attorney, right? [/quote]

Not in Colorado apparently.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 06:13 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Yeah, whatever.

coco
(recently joined)
01/13/11 06:50 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

There seems to be a lack of knowledge that Colorado has the most onerous alimony outcomes in the US. Here is reality:

1) Colorado is a completely no fault state and marital conduct is not considered *at all* in alimony awards.
2) There is *automatic* temporary maintenance awarded using the formula of 40% of higher earner's gross minus 50% of lower earner's gross.
3) While from the statutes it looks like there is something of a "means threshold" above which alimony will not be awarded to a lower earner if they can already support themselves, the fact of the matter is that this is only applied to *men* asking for alimony.
4) The predominant factor is the one in the post above that is number (3) The standard of living enjoyed during the marriage. This one tends to override all other considerations.
5) There is *no* concept of rehabilitative alimony in Colorado. It doesn't exist. The *only* requirement to continue alimony is that the recipient does not sign a marriage license. That is the *only* requirement.
6) Cohabitation means absolutely nothing, even if it begins before the divorce is filed. An alimony recipient can live with someone and be totally supported in a lifestyle far above what she enjoyed during her marriage, but as long as she doesn't sign a marriage license, the alimony continues.
7) Downward modifications to court ordered alimony are almost unheard of. Even if the payor declares bankruptcy, they are expected to liquidate all assets in the quest to cover the ordered alimony. If the payor becomes indigent, they will be jailed in contempt.
8) Alimony is generally 1/2 the length of the marriage up to ten years, and is very often lifetime after ten years. For a twenty year marriage, lifetime is virtually guaranteed if the income discrepancy is more than 15-20%. While there is no *statutory* definition of duration, case law dictates these durations if the recipient is a woman. If the recipient is male (very, very rare), the duration is very limited and rarely exceeds five years.

Of course like any other state with statutes based on the UMDA, there is variation between judges, but Colorado has experienced "Alimony Creep" and the highest awards that can possibly be supported by case law are now generally awarded if the recipient is a woman, both in amount and duration.

Again, talk to any Family Law Attorney in Colorado. The alimony awards are out of hand, and even some judges are beginning to suggest that the legislature needs to step in with some concrete amount and duration guidelines.


finz
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 07:20 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]Right here:
"My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE."
In the first post. [/quote]


*****************************************************

You just scored for the opposing team. If he refused to give his consent, he had to know what he was refusing.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 07:24 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

So if I get a credit card and put YOUR name on it, thus you did NOT consent, you have knowledge of it? You know, it is possible to NOT consent BECAUSE you had no knowledge of it, right? Point removed. He did not say he REFUSED to consent, he said WITHOUT his consent.

english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 07:35 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"Don't you have a vagina to sell, or more to the point RENT, to someone?"

I am tired of your harassment.

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You agree to not use the Service to:

a. upload, post, email or otherwise transmit any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;"


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 07:36 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

So you calling me an "azzhole" is what?

english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 07:40 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"So you calling me an "azzhole" is what?

The truth.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 07:46 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Well, a person who expects $35,000 for a 13 month marriage is a leech, so that is thr truth as well. See YOUR perception is YOUR truth, therefore MY perception is MY truth.

Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/13/11 08:17 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]Right here:

"My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE."

In the first post. [/quote]

Where does it say without his knowledge? All it says is without his consent and against his wishes.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 08:32 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Because it DOESN'T say with a REFUSAL of his consent, it says WITHOUT his consent, there is a difference. If he KNEW, but didn't consent, that would be a REFUSAL.

Of course, the OP could clear this up hen he comes back on.


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 08:38 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Sounds like his wife was proabably just buying a lot of junk on Credit Cards, he said "Yo, WTF are you doing" She responded "Piss off, I'm going to buy that 2k Louis Vuitton whether you like it or not" So he said, screw this, I'm not paying for you to continue being a lazy no good bum, we're divorcing!!!!"

gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 08:40 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

What is REALLY disgusting that women like Goodmom are LOOKING for a reason to defend this scumbag woman and her attempt to bankrupt the guy who supported her.

Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/13/11 09:00 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]Because it DOESN'T say with a REFUSAL of his consent, it says WITHOUT his consent, there is a difference. If he KNEW, but didn't consent, that would be a REFUSAL.

Of course, the OP could clear this up hen he comes back on. [/quote]

Nowhere does it state in ANY of his posts that he did NOT know.

You are reading what you want into what was posted.

And even if it was done without his knowledge (which is doubtful, just how did he think she was paying for everything she was buying?), it is STILL JOINT DEBT.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/13/11 09:07 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]What is REALLY disgusting that women like Goodmom are LOOKING for a reason to defend this scumbag woman and her attempt to bankrupt the guy who supported her. [/quote]

You really like reading what's not there to support your rather warped view, don't you?

I wasn't defending anyone. I was simply pointing out FACTS. Something that you like to ignore when it suits you.

The FACTS are:

The debt IS joint debt.
Nowhere did the original poster state he had no knowledge. Just that he did not consent to it.
There is not enough information given to determine if spousal support is likely at all. Including the state. Because some states do take fault into consideration when determining spousal support.
For all we know, SHE is the higher wage earner and HE cheated.

Either way, you are jumping to conclusions and reading what you want into what is posted rather than what is actually written.


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:08 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

That doesn't mean he's liable for any of it. If the judge finds she was being wanton in her spending, they can assign all the debt to her (which they should)

Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/13/11 09:11 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]That doesn't mean he's liable for any of it. If the judge finds she was being wanton in her spending, they can assign all the debt to her (which they should) [/quote]

For a 10 year marriage? The debt is going to be split. And if it is in a community property state, it will be 50/50. Which it should be.

Now if this was a marriage that was only a coupld of years, the judge may rule the way you would hope.


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:17 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

You have no idea how the judge will rule. You're speculating just like anyone else here.

english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:17 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"Because it DOESN'T say with a REFUSAL of his consent, it says WITHOUT his consent, there is a difference. If he KNEW, but didn't consent, that would be a REFUSAL."

He wrote "against my wishes"!!!! Sounds to me like he must have let her know he wished she would not do it. "without my consent" sounds like he did not tell her "yes."

"My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE."


finz
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:29 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]So if I get a credit card and put YOUR name on it, thus you did NOT consent, you have knowledge of it? You know, it is possible to NOT consent BECAUSE you had no knowledge of it, right? Point removed. He did not say he REFUSED to consent, he said WITHOUT his consent. [/quote]

**********************************************

against his wishes too......

How did he know to wish against it ?

I'm a 'mean what you say and say what you mean' kind of girl. If you are trying to say, she did it without my knowledge....you say THAT. If you say 'without my consent and against my wishes' it means she asked, he said "No" and she did it anyhow.

If he meant to say, "She never asked my permission to do this and I was clear before we even married that I was opposed to buying anything on credit"....then say THAT.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:35 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"And if it is in a community property state, it will be 50/50. Which it should be."

So you think one party SHOULD be allowed to spend the couple into bankruptcy, then SPLIT the debt with the main wage earner? Why is that?


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:37 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Well, hopefully the OP can clear it up when he comes back.

Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:38 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"That doesn't mean he's liable for any of it. If the judge finds she was being wanton in her spending, they can assign all the debt to her (which they should)"

I don't think the creditors have to follow a divorce decree.


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:38 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]"And if it is in a community property state, it will be 50/50. Which it should be."

So you think one party [WOMAN] SHOULD be allowed to spend the couple into bankruptcy, then SPLIT the debt with the main wage earner?[MAN] Why is that? [/quote]

Edited for accuracy....


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:40 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]"That doesn't mean he's liable for any of it. If the judge finds she was being wanton in her spending, they can assign all the debt to her (which they should)"

I don't think the creditors have to follow a divorce decree. [/quote]

If the debt is in her name, then he wouldn't be worrying about creditors. If my wife opened up a cc in her name and spent huge amounts on it, it's not going to affect my credit rating if she doesn't pay it off.


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:41 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

"If the debt is in her name, then he wouldn't be worrying about creditors. If my wife opened up a cc in her name and spent huge amounts on it, it's not going to affect my credit rating if she doesn't pay it off. "

I'd like to hear Maury's take on it, but I think you're wrong.

ETA: it may vary from state to state?


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:49 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Mine was COMPLETELY gender neutral...yet I bet they don't start calling YOU a woman hater.

spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:51 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

If they do, I'll just tell them to get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich.

finz
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 09:58 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

*sigh*

Spinner isn't a woman hater. Men don't have the boobies to keep him interested for long......


DedicatedDad
(veteran)
01/13/11 10:26 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Without knowing your spouse is running up credit cards doesn't matter in most states. My ex took out $30K in cash advances in the year prior to your divorce (unknown to me), and I was "awarded" half the debt. She said she blew it all at a [censored], which I knew wasn't the truth....she hates gambling. As I figured, a couple years later I found where she had parked the money.....with a relative....preparing for divorce.

english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 10:51 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Ouch!

javajunkiee
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/13/11 10:52 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]"She'll probably get a minimum of short term support."

There is absolutely nothing on which to base that opinion I am afraid. [/quote]

You're right - the OP didn't give any kind of income info. My bad. Guess my response is a knee-jerk reaction after years of seeing posts on this board. Although, if she does make less, tells the judge that she couldn't make it without help, and doesn't want to uproot her daughter, well... they cynic in me says she'll get exclusive use of the home and he'll be ordered to pay something until the final hearing.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/14/11 05:59 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]You have no idea how the judge will rule. You're speculating just like anyone else here. [/quote]

Actually, in a community property state, it's pretty much a given how a judge will rule.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/14/11 06:00 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]"And if it is in a community property state, it will be 50/50. Which it should be."

So you think one party SHOULD be allowed to spend the couple into bankruptcy, then SPLIT the debt with the main wage earner? Why is that? [/quote]

Because it is a JOINT debt. And it would be joint regardless of who did the spending. And as stated, he's going to have a hard time saying he didn't consent since there is a very good possibility (please look up the definition of this before you go and say that I am saying he knew for sure about it) that he KNEW about it. At the very least, a judge is going to want to know WHY he didn't question how she was paying for all of the stuff she was paying.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/14/11 06:01 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote][quote]"And if it is in a community property state, it will be 50/50. Which it should be."

So you think one party [WOMAN] SHOULD be allowed to spend the couple into bankruptcy, then SPLIT the debt with the main wage earner?[MAN] Why is that? [/quote]

Edited for accuracy.... [/quote]

To bad your edit for "accuracy" is wrong. The statement was fine just the way it was.

Of course, we don't know who the main wage earner is. It was not posted.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/14/11 06:06 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]So if I get a credit card and put YOUR name on it, thus you did NOT consent, you have knowledge of it? [/quote]

That's called fraud. Where did the original poster say that his stbx got a credit card in his name? From what I read, all of the debt is in her name.


Goodmom
(Pooh-Bah)
01/14/11 06:09 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote][quote]"That doesn't mean he's liable for any of it. If the judge finds she was being wanton in her spending, they can assign all the debt to her (which they should)"

I don't think the creditors have to follow a divorce decree. [/quote]

If the debt is in her name, then he wouldn't be worrying about creditors. If my wife opened up a cc in her name and spent huge amounts on it, it's not going to affect my credit rating if she doesn't pay it off. [/quote]

But if he doesn't pay it, he could very well be ordered to pay spousal support,even if the incomes are similar, until his portion is paid. And THAT will have an impact on his ability to get credit.

And his stbx can also go and get a judgement against him and properly record it. Which will have an impact on his credit. And if the OP lives in a state that allows creditors to garnish, then the stbx can also get a garnishment order. Which will have an impact on his ability to get credit.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/14/11 08:53 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Your post is absurd. First, even if what you say is correct in Colorado and there has been an increase in alimony awards, there is nothing in the post that supports any conclusion about spousal support from a factual basis. None of the criteria that the court is required to look at based on Colorado statutes is included in the post other than length of marriage. Moreover, the court cannot ignore the law although it may use the law to support its judgemennts.

Second, the person does not say they are from Colorado which makes the conversation on that state's particular law in consequential to your conclusion that spousal support may be paid.

Perhaps you should put aside whatever individual agenda you have on the issue and look at the law.

Gr8dad - he said that she ran up debts without his consent. That does not mean he did not know about it. In fact, it implies that he did because he did not agree to it. He also does not relate what thopse debts may have been for.

A Judge may certainly assign debt as they feel is equitable, which does not mean equal. However,the presumption is for an equal division. Overriding that presumption is extremely difficult and almost never occurs. Where I have seen it occur is in instances where a person is taking vacations with a paramore, buying gifts for a paramore, incurring gambling debts unknown to the other party and things of that nature.


coco
(recently joined)
01/14/11 11:24 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

If someone doesn't specify the state, in a question about alimony, they deserve to be warned in case they are in Colorado. People will give advice based on the experiences in their more reasonable states, and if the person happens to be in CO, they are blindsided.

I have looked at and experienced the Colorado law. There are absolutely *no* concrete guidelines for amount or duration of alimony, and absolutely *no* limits. It is left entirely up to the judge.

The only limiting factor for permanent alimony mentioned *anywhere* in Colorado divorce statutes is mentioned under the guidelines for modifications, where it states that a modification is only considered when CHANGED CIRCUMSTANCES make the original award "unfair." BTW, this statute was changed a few years ago because originally instead of "unfair" it said "unconscionable." Unfortunately, the judges still cling to unconscionable, which is why modifications are almost *never* made.

Because there is *nothing* in the statutes defining amount or duration, there are absolutely *no* grounds for appeal of an alimony award in Colorado. There is case law covering literally any award a judge can conjure up. Any appeal can be denied based on existing case law showing a similar award.

People who don't live hear can't imagine the reality. Here is a great example: There was a story on the AP wires that went nationwide about a woman who died in childbirth, and whose baby was born without a heartbeat. Both miraculously survived.

In the story it says the father lost his job because he had to stay home to tend to the mother, the baby, and their two other children.

Now, get this, it also says that during the ordeal, HE WAS JAILED for failing to pay alimony to his ex-wife. What judicial system would remove the caretaker and father from a family during a time of dire need, to put him in jail for failure to pay alimony to an ex-wife, when the reason he couldn't pay was that he was tending to his sick wife and newborn? What SOCIETAL purpose was there to do this? Taxpayers had to pay to have him processed and incarcerated, while his family sat at home and suffered? WTF? Someone please tell me how this could happen? Given the financial situation, was the guy supposed to sell one of his kids to get money for the alimony or what?

Oh, of course, this situation took place in COLORADO, the most forked up state for alimony anywhere.

Now, here is an absolutely fascinating element to this story: the original AP story mentions that Mr. Hermanstorfer was jailed for non-payment of alimony during this ordeal. Some of the news outlets reporting this story REMOVED that sentence from the story when they published it. Why do you think this was done?

[censored]://[censored].boston.com/community/stories_to_inspire/articles/2010/12/22/colo_family_still_in_awe_of_mom_babys_recovery/

[censored]://[censored].foxnews.com/health/2010/12/22/colo-family-awe-mom-babys-miracle-recovery/


elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/14/11 11:39 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

I don't know why you seem to think that Colorado is special. The only state I am aware of that it is unlikely to get alimony is Texas. Everywhere else is almost as you described. The law is vague, giving judges leeway.

I also don't know why you feel it necessary to "warn" anyone. Everyone said yes, you will probably pay alimony - consult an attorney. What else would you have them warned of? ONE person said at a MINIMUM temp support - the obvious maximum being left unsaid (lifetime support). Someone argued that there was not enough info to make that call, which was technically true but what was said is TYPICALLY true. Unless the female was the breadwinner it is unlikely the male won't owe alimony on a 10 year marriage. I don't like that truth, but it is what it is. I don't think anything was missing from that advice.


coco
(recently joined)
01/14/11 11:50 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]I don't know why you seem to think that Colorado is special. The only state I am aware of that it is unlikely to get alimony is Texas. Everywhere else is almost as you described. The law is vague, giving judges leeway.

I also don't know why you feel it necessary to "warn" anyone. Everyone said yes, you will probably pay alimony - consult an attorney. What else would you have them warned of? ONE person said at a MINIMUM temp support - the obvious maximum being left unsaid (lifetime support). Someone argued that there was not enough info to make that call, which was technically true but what was said is TYPICALLY true. Unless the female was the breadwinner it is unlikely the male won't owe alimony on a 10 year marriage. I don't like that truth, but it is what it is. I don't think anything was missing from that advice. [/quote]

Did you even read my posts? In the first sentence you say you don't know why I think Colorado is "special". What is "special" is that in Colorado, a 10 year marriage very often results in lifetime alimony, which is not the case in any other state other than Massachusetts, and they have a law being introduced in the legislature to end that.

The Colorado statutes don't specify this injustice, but this is what the judges award. You can't go by a reading of the statutes because the statutes do not specify *anywhere* what the award should be. It is *entirely* up to the judge. This is *why* I am posting this warning. If the OP is in Colorado, he has been warned, and if anyone else stumbling on to this later sees it, they have been warned, too. Don't go perusing internet forums for alimony numbers if you live in Colorado, unless the cases you read about are specifically in Colorado, because things are much worse here than any other state.


elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/14/11 12:01 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

I don't know how you can make such a statement. As familiar as you are with Colorado - you are equally unfamiliar with 49 other states.

One state in particular that comes to mind is Georgia, where to my knowledge spousal support for ANY length of marriage is all but guaranteed (unless the person committed adultery - and even then in my DH's case the judge made up for her ineligibility by awarding all the assets and 0 debt she racked up). I am personally only familiar with a few states but a lifetime alimony award for a 10 year marriage is not exactly COMPLETELY unheard of anywhere. Unlikely in some states that I am familiar with. More likely in the south.


Avaya
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/14/11 12:22 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]Don't pay for her daughter. That's her mother and father's job. If you want to give the kid $$$ directly do so, but by no means agree to anything that gives your soon to be ex the $$$. [/quote]

Amen!


Avaya
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/14/11 12:23 PM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

[quote]Right here:

"My wife has incurred a significant amount of debt without my consent, against my wishes and in HER NAME ALONE."

In the first post. [/quote]

But that doesn't mean without his knowledge.....


coco
(recently joined)
01/14/11 12:36 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]I don't know how you can make such a statement. As familiar as you are with Colorado - you are equally unfamiliar with 49 other states.

One state in particular that comes to mind is Georgia, where to my knowledge spousal support for ANY length of marriage is all but guaranteed (unless the person committed adultery - and even then in my DH's case the judge made up for her ineligibility by awarding all the assets and 0 debt she racked up). I am personally only familiar with a few states but a lifetime alimony award for a 10 year marriage is not exactly COMPLETELY unheard of anywhere. Unlikely in some states that I am familiar with. More likely in the south. [/quote]

I have done considerable research on alimony in other states, because I want the laws in Colorado to change.

Colorado is the state more likely than any other to award lifetime alimony, excluding Massachusetts. However, Massachusetts is nearing the end of a decade-long effort to reform their laws to make lifetime alimony much less likely.

What makes Colorado so bad is the combination of completely no fault divorce in every case, automatic temporary alimony in an outrageous amount that ignores reality, absolutely no penalty for *any* marital conduct including outright cohabitation with another during the marriage, no provision for ending alimony for any reason other than remarriage of the recipient, absolutely no concept of rehabilitative alimony whatsoever, absolute jail time for anyone falling behind on their alimony for any reason, the completely out of hand amounts and durations of alimony awards, and the totally accepted and transparent gender bias in the alimony awards. There have been hundreds of thousands of men ordered to pay lifetime alimony in this state, and not a *single* woman. Ever.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/14/11 06:49 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

I posted the statute in Coloradio which includes the guidelines. It requires a court to consider, among other things:

(1) The financial status of the party seeking maintenance; (2) The time necessary to gain employment or establish earning capacity (3) The standard of living enjoyed during the marriage; (4) The duration of the marriage; (5) The age and the health condition of the spouse seeking maintenance; and (6) The ability of the spouse from whom maintenance is sought to meet his or her needs while meeting those of the spouse seeking maintenance. (Colorado Statutes - Article 10 - Sections: 14-10-114, 14-10-117)"

Suggesting that there is no limitation would be inaccurate and suggesting that there are no guidelines is as well. Further suggesting that there was sufficient information in this particular post with which to make any assesment of spousal support is, well, puzzling, since little was provided. nonetheless, you are entitled to your opinion.


coco
(recently joined)
01/14/11 08:46 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Right. Please point out the limitations or guidelines in those statutes. Where does it say 40% of gross for life after a 10 year marriage is unreasonable? It doesn't, and that is a common award in CO where the lower earner is a SAHM. As I said, the only place in Colorado divorce statues that set limits are in the section about modifications where it says the modification will *only* be considered if changed circumstances have made the original award "unfair", and in the section about temporary maintenance which absolutely specifies temporary maintenance to be the 40%-50% formula. In no statute concerning permanent maintenance are *any* duration or amount factors specified. Given this leeway, Colorado judges have inflated awards to the point the the general permanent award uses the 40%-50% formula *regardless* of the distribution of the marital assets, *and* lifetime alimony is on the table in any marriage over 10 years, and it is virtually guaranteed for any marriage over 20 years, even if the lower earner is only 40 years old and professionally employed at a great career.

Again, it appears that you are in either WI or MN. Call a Colorado attorney and ask them if anything I have posted is wrong. It is all true.

Until the OP weighs in with a state, I am dropping off. Mission accomplished, awareness raised. Colorado awards the most ridiculous alimony in the US, under the most liberal (for the recipient)rules in the US. A double whammy.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 09:21 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Very few states have "limitations" set in statute. The court reviews the factors set out to analyze whether spousal suport is necessary, and the duration as well as amount. It is discretionary. They may award temporary maintenance, rehabilitative maintenance, no maintenance or permantent maintenance. Colorado appears to be no different.

If you have some authoritative studies that indicate spousal suport awards in that particular state are increasing in duration, please include them. An opinion based on liettle more than a personal perspective really is not much of a study.

Regardless, as has been repeatedly noted, there is nothing in this particular post that would present enough information to make any assesment on support. As a result , your original assesment that it is likely is misplaced.


coco
(recently joined)
01/17/11 11:39 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

I'm sure you've helped some people through your responses, but PLEASE quit "helping" anyone from Colorado. You clearly have no experience or knowledge whatsoever in the family courts here.

For example, you mentioned rehabilitative alimony in your response again. There is *no*, and I mean *no* concept of rehabilitative alimony in Colorado. Of course, two couples can write whatever they want into their agreement, but in a court-adjudicated case, there is *no* *never* *ever* rehabilitative alimony in Colorado. Ever. Period. IT DOESN'T EXIST. The *only* grounds for termination of alimony here are death or remarriage. The courts can not and will not require an alimony recipient to get a job or earn money, or order alimony based on any such factors. Furthermore, there is no concept here of a declining alimony payment to try to urge someone to get a job or "wean" them off of alimony. It is ordered for a specific amount, for either a set length of time or for life, and the payments *will* continue at that level until the term has ended, someone dies, the recipient remarries, or there is a petition to the court to modify. Modifications are almost NEVER granted, and as I posted above, even indigence on the part of the payor is not grounds for ending alimony. They will throw you in jail first, as they did to the father of the sick wife and child who stayed home to take care of them.

You mentioned the court "may" award temporary maintenance. In Colorado, the court *will by law* award temporary maintenance if there is *any* income discrepancy whatsoever, and the lower earner asks for it. It is mandated by law.

I would love to give you a "study" about permanent awards, but guess what? All divorce records in Colorado are now sealed. You cannot get ANY information about a divorce here unless you are a party to the divorce, or you have a subpoena. Given that, there is no way to have a "study" is there? So all we have to go on is individual anecdotes, and believe me, they are legion, and they will make you hair stand on end.

As I said, until the OP weighs in with a state, further conjecture is unnecessary.

In the future please decline to give any alimony advice to people posting from Colorado.


spinnerdegrassi
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 11:58 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

That is a perfect reason never.....eveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrr live in Colorado.

elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 11:58 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

OK, so you can't produce a study that somehow Colorado is worse than any other state?

I mean anecdotedly - THIS site which does not pull disproportionately from any geographic location does not have a disproportionate number of gentlemen from Colorado.

And yes, divorce records are private, but yet studies on custody awards are done. Perhaps you can research their methods for ways to do one of your own.

Lastly - even if everything you say is true, no one has given anyone bad advice even if they are from Colorado. Presumably - no one is going to stop a divorce due to spousal support. Its not like waiting will make it better. So while they may face something harsher than they expected - it doesn't change the outcome.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 12:00 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Thank you for your concerns. However, bitterness because of a result in your proceeeding certainly does not provide a basis to make broader statements about law that are unsupported by statutes or other evidence. It also does not make you an accurate barometer of the legal landscape with regard to spousal support. And your "inablity" to access records to form a study really does not support your contention.


While there is no statute providing for rehabilitative maintenance (few states have one) it is an argument that can be made as part of a case. Here are some attorneys in Colorado for your review.

h t t p ://w w w .ccdlawyers.com/divorce.asp

Please note the section on Spousal support which indicates that a court may award rehabilitative maintenance. Are they incorrect too?

Here is a second Colorado law [censored]. h t t p :// w w w .colorado--attorney.com/Family-Law.shtml

It's web site lists:

"DIVORCE ("Dissolution of Marriage") AND CHILD CUSTODY IN COLORADO"

Maintenance ("Alimony"): temporary maintenance, permanent maintenance, rehabilitative maintenance"

Are they incorrect as well?

Here is a third Colorado lawyer.

h t t p ://w w w .thodelaw.com/practice-areas/maintenance/

Please read "Maintenance is not automatic" and pay particular to the sections on Temporary Maintenance and Rehabilitative Maintenance.

Here is information that suggests that "The trend in Colorado has been towards a "rehabilitative" award that ends after a few years."

h t t p ://w w w .usafa.edu/superintendent/ja/colorado_divorce_law.cfm?catname=JA

This Colorado lawyer also suggests that Maintenance trend in Colorado is for rehabilitative.

h t t p :// w w w .kurtzpeckham.com/FamilyLaw-%20Maintenance.html

I would suggest that you reconsider whether you should be providing bad information.



elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 12:07 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Touche

english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 12:24 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

:)

coco
(recently joined)
01/17/11 02:20 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Touche, my a z z.

What is the commonly accepted definition of "rehabilitative alimony?" It is TEMPORARY alimony that continues UNTIL the recipient becomes able to support themselves.

This is right off of this website:

""Rehabilitative alimony is intended to rehabilitate the payee spouse and bring that spouse to a point where she or he is able to achieve financial independence. To be awarded rehabilitative alimony, the payee spouse must put forth a plan for his or her rehabilitation. Such a plan must include the following: the steps which will be taken to achieve rehabilitation; and the time frame which shall include a period of employment during which the rehabilitation occurs. Rehabilitative alimony can be modified upon a showing of a change in circumstances. Generally, rehabilitative alimony will continue until the payee spouse is rehabilitated. Remarriage does not terminate rehabilitative alimony."



There is *no* rehabilitative alimony in Colorado. Period. There is *no* provision in the law for any types of alimony other than temporary (prior to final orders) and permanent (after final orders.) There is *no* provision in the law for review of the recipient's living standard or progress after a certain period with an eye toward reducing or eliminating alimony. It just doesn't exist, and it just doesn't happen. Because someone calls an award rehabilitative doesn't make it so. If the alimony is for a predetermined length of time, and has no provision for a review, it is *not* rehabilitative alimony, it is PERMANENT alimony with a fixed term. Someone may say the award was of the amount and term that it was so that the recipient may "rehabilitate" themselves, but in Colorado, the alimony *will* continue for the *entire* term of the award in the *entire* amount of the award, because there is not, and never is a rehearing unless either party petitions for a modification. In other states, the judge will set a term and review the case automatically. If the recipient has not taken action to become self-supporting, the alimony may be terminated or reduced as punishment. This *does* *not* *happen* in Colorado. As I posted earlier, the *only* grounds for termination of alimony are death, remarriage or petition to modify. There are *no* other grounds for termination. If the recipient remarries, the alimony ENDS. This is not rehabilitative alimony.

Temporary maintenance *is* automatic but only if the recipient *asks* for it. If one party makes $45K and the other makes $25K, if temporary maintenance is asked for, it *will* be awarded in the amount of .40($45K) - .50($25K) or in this case about $450/mo. AUTOMATICALLY. EVERY TIME. The law *requires* this award, since 2000.

As I said before, you are not licensed to practice in Colorado, and you have no knowledge of the reality of Colorado family law.

Do us a favor, CALL an attorney in Colorado and ask them if what I have said is true. Then come back and fill us in on what you find.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 02:35 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Your posts are become more absurd. First, rehabilitative maintnance did not exist. Now, your issue is with the definition. How you consider maintenance for a predetermined term to be permanent is really quite a feat of mental gymnastics.

The nonsensical rambligs nothwithstanding, rehabilitative maintenance can be temporary as well. It can be in place for a defined period or until defined events occur (such as completion of schooling).

You suggest referencing a Colorado lawyer. I referenced numerous articles from those sites. Yet, you persist in seeking some other reading of plain language. By contrast, you provide little than your opinion guided by bitterness related to your court order which you acknowledged in your first post on thse forums.

The irony of it all of this is that nothing in Colorado's statute (or others) support the simple response made to the original post that maintenance is likely when no facts were provided to support the contention.

You may continue to tilt at wndmills and twist in some misguided feffort to be in some way right, but I think you would be wise to move along at this point.

Incidentally, here is yet ANOTHER Colorado lawyer that disagress with your assertions:

" Limited-term support sometimes is called "rehabilitative maintenance," as it is designed to maintain a supported spouse's financial stability for the time it takes him or her to be rehabilitated. This sort of maintenance often is awarded during times in marriage where one spouse has deferred career and/or education for the family's welfare.


Temporary spousal support can be defined for a specific period of time, and a specific date usually is identified for the court's approval."

h t t p ://w w w .lklincoln.com/Publications/DivorceNewsletter.aspx?NewsItemid=2

Here is yet another:

"Rehabilitative maintenance: often awarded in marriages of medium or short duration, in which one spouse was at home with the children and is now reentering the job market. Rehabilitative support has a specific time limit."

jamesenglish.com/Practice-Areas/Spousal-Maintenance.shtml


coco
(recently joined)
01/17/11 03:12 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

So at first you are all about making a literal reading of the law, now you are all about Googling up lawyer's websites.

Again, the term "rehabilitative" does not appear anywhere in Colorado Family Law. The standard definition of "rehabilitative alimony" includes specific goals and specific reviews. These *never* occur in Colorado in a court-ordered award. Ever. ALL alimony awards after final orders are *permanent*. They may have a fixed length of time, but there is *no* requirement for the recipient to do *anything* in order to continue receiving the alimony, as long as they don't sign a marriage license. Furthermore, ALL court ordered alimony in Colorado ends upon the remarriage of the recipient. One of the primary definitions of rehabilitative alimony is that it does *not* end upon remarriage.

You obviously just Googled up some Colorado lawyer's websites and cut and pasted. Guess what? At least one of your links is to a boilerplate the lawyer obviously bought and never even bothered to read. Go back to lklincoln.com and actually read the link you provided. It is total boilerplate, with nothing specific to Colorado AT ALL. The clue is at the bottom:

Copyright 2011 LexisNexis, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc.

Again, there are *only* two types of alimony in Colorado: Temporary, which is what is awarded prior to final orders, and Permanent, which is ordered at the time of final orders. There is *no such thing* as Temporary alimony that continues beyond final orders. Period.

There is *no such thing* as "rehabilitative alimony" in Colorado as there is in other states. Again, the court can come up with *any* award they feel like and be supported by case law, and they may say the reason for the award is *rehabilitation*, but the final order is for PERMANENT SPOUSAL MAINTENANCE, with fixed terms, ends upon death or remarriage, *no* provision for a rehearing other than a request for modification, and *no* obligations on the part of the recipient other than that they don't sign a marriage license. It may be term limited, but it is still PERMANENT, and ends only on death, remarriage, modification, or reaching the end of the term.

Again, let us know what that Colorado Attorney you ACTUALLY TALK TO says about these issues.


Maury
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 03:14 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

LOL

There is ample evidence out there to read that indicates the absurdity of your continuing argument. Nonethless, you are certainly free to rant onward.

I wish you luck.


english7
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/17/11 03:20 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

"It may be term limited, but it is still PERMANENT, and ends only on death, remarriage, modification, or reaching the end of the term."

I don't understand this. If it is permanent, how can it also end upon reaching the end of the term? You used the word "or" here, so I don't know what circumstance would cause the ending of the term, other than death, remarriage, or modification.


M5M5
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/18/11 07:33 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

English, you should stop needling gr8dad. You can't claim he is harassing you if you constantly post after him needling him into a response (not that I would call that harassment anyway...just vulgarity).

M5M5
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/18/11 07:35 AM
Re: Does my wife deserve spousal support?

Not entirely true. My DH and his ex were married for 11 years...they each went away with their own debts (she got stuck with the majority..about 85% since the majority was in her name).

coco
(recently joined)
01/18/11 09:41 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]OK, so you can't produce a study that somehow Colorado is worse than any other state?

I mean anecdotedly - THIS site which does not pull disproportionately from any geographic location does not have a disproportionate number of gentlemen from Colorado.

And yes, divorce records are private, but yet studies on custody awards are done. Perhaps you can research their methods for ways to do one of your own.

Lastly - even if everything you say is true, no one has given anyone bad advice even if they are from Colorado. Presumably - no one is going to stop a divorce due to spousal support. Its not like waiting will make it better. So while they may face something harsher than they expected - it doesn't change the outcome. [/quote]

1) How exactly do you propose a private citizen conduct a study on alimony awards in Colorado other than talking to people who have been through divorce here? Which is exactly what I have done.

2) Are you kidding? When you say "no one is going to stop a divorce because of spousal support", you are obviously living on a planet where *you* would never be forced to pay spousal support. Put yourself in this position: 40% of gross for the rest of your life, PLUS you are forced by law to carry, at your expense, a life insurance policy for five times your gross income, with the beneficiary being your ex.

Trust me, there are thousands of men here who stay in dead marriages solely because of the onerous alimony laws. This is not a game. If you are ordered to pay alimony and you lose your job (not like *that* ever happens, right?), in Colorado, you STILL must pay the full amount using ALL of your financial resources, selling everything your own, declaring bankruptcy(which does nothing to erase alimony obligations), and then, if you still can't pay, you go to jail. I know two men who have been in this position. The courts *refuse* to lower alimony in Colorado until the payor is completely destitute and has been to jail.

BTW, women in this state know all about alimony. As soon as they find out a guy is paying, they turn and run. They know he is a marked man, and will never get ahead, because if he does, the ex will haul him into court and ask for a modifications. Upward modifications are easily granted here. Downward, never, until the life of the payor has been destroyed.


finz
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/18/11 09:44 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

*sigh*

How about we'll pm you if we desperately need info about SS in CO and until then you go bye bye ?


elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/18/11 10:22 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

I have a hard time believing that somone on the receiving end of a "dead marriage" who could win the alimony lottery would not continue to do so - if such a thing existed. So yeah, I don't think you could stop a divorce based on what you will have to pay. Because the other person would likely have an "F you" attitude and take what they can get.

I don't know how you think you will change the laws in CO without some evidence that the laws are enforced in a punitive fashion compared to other states. Perhaps again - you can pursue places that have performed child custody studies and see how theirs were funded and done. Usually child custody studies are done to support fathers rights - and alimony might fall under that purview since almost all alimony payors are men.


elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
01/18/11 10:24 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

I would also like to add that we have a fairly active member of this board that IS from Colorado (I believe) she divorced after a long marriage, SAHM, etc. And did not receive lifetime alimony. It was "term" alimony which is like rehabilitative alimony in other states.

coco
(recently joined)
01/18/11 11:04 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]I would also like to add that we have a fairly active member of this board that IS from Colorado (I believe) she divorced after a long marriage, SAHM, etc. And did not receive lifetime alimony. It was "term" alimony which is like rehabilitative alimony in other states. [/quote]

Then she settled out of court. People are free to make any agreement they would like out of court. If she was a SAHM, and her husband made enough to cover child support and then some, married at least 10 years, she probably could have gotten lifetime, married 20 or more, she WOULD HAVE received lifetime.


coco
(recently joined)
01/18/11 11:17 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

[quote]I have a hard time believing that somone on the receiving end of a "dead marriage" who could win the alimony lottery would not continue to do so - if such a thing existed. So yeah, I don't think you could stop a divorce based on what you will have to pay. Because the other person would likely have an "F you" attitude and take what they can get.

I don't know how you think you will change the laws in CO without some evidence that the laws are enforced in a punitive fashion compared to other states. Perhaps again - you can pursue places that have performed child custody studies and see how theirs were funded and done. Usually child custody studies are done to support fathers rights - and alimony might fall under that purview since almost all alimony payors are men. [/quote]

Sealing all divorce records made any reform in Colorado much more difficult. This is exactly what the Colorado Bar wants. They know if a fair system with concrete guidelines were to be established, they would lose half of their business. They already are in crisis mode because people are giving up on marriage here, especially second marriages, and when there are fewer marriages, there are fewer divorces. I know many people who have divorced in the past ten years, I know exactly ONE who has remarried. Everyone else just lives together to avoid being put through the hell that is the Colorado Family Law system. The airwaves are filled with ads from divorce lawyers, and you can call one up and get an appointment literally within hours, because their business has dropped off and they are desperate.

The only way reform is going to happen is if there is a ballot initiative. These are common in Colorado, and I truly believe if people were given the truth about the situation here, it would pass easily. The *only* opposition would come from the Colorado Bar, which would certainly spend millions on tear jerking, fear mongering TV ads. I would counter with ads showing women tossing wads of cash in the air and proclaiming that they just won the Colorado Alimony Lottery, isn't it great? In fact, I believe one strategy would be to start nationally advertising for women to move to Colorado, establish 90 day residency, and then file for divorce under Colorado laws. This would be totally legal. If your wife establishes residency here, which only takes 90 days, she can file for divorce and you are now stuck defending in Colorado, even if you have never set foot here. The problem is that ballot initiatives cost a minimum of half a million to get on the ballot. No one paying alimony has that kind of cash to front an effort.


erika23
(recently joined)
01/19/11 06:44 AM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

My ex-husband had a similar situation. His wife got many credit cards without his knowledge or permission but using his good income and credit history. When they divorced, he was responsible for all of her debts. This amounted to over $30,000. He also paid her child support/alimony in the amount of $74,000. She was completely capable of working. They were married for 13 years. Although this is now behind us as his 2 sons are now adults, the whole situation completely destroyed us financially. He ended up having to declare bankruptcy and we are now struggling to improve our credit. I feel for you!

yregna
(veteran)
01/20/11 06:08 PM
Re: Absolute Nonsense

Erika,
The only reason you are saying that is because you are 2nd in line for this man's income.

If YOU were the receiver of the $74k of alimony, and benefitted from $30k in CC purchases, you'd be telling all your girlfriends and everyone on this board what an A$$ hole your ex is and how he deserves to pay you big $$...

You see, its all about in your place in line...



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