emilar
(enthusiast)
08/04/07 11:25 AM
Fraud in excess of $40000

Help guys. After going through the little bit of discovery from my ex, I have found unreported income in excess of 40000 in cash from loans and savings accounts.
I need to know that if he refinanced marital vehicles, etc and received cash above the amount he owed.
Example car loan balance 11,000 refinances for 21000, receives 10,000 in cash. I pretty much think thats fraud upon myself and the child in terms of support, but are there tax ramifications of that?
This income has never been disclosed in our divorce action and we are heading for the all remaining issues next week.
Theres no doubt I can prove it, and it's a dissipation issue,but for that kind of money, is it going to be criminal?
This case is based on domestic violence and I'm really scared. Should I go to the judge with an exparte order of some kind?
I'm afraid it's gonna be 50000 plus when I receive the full disclosure. Thats going to bump it up to criminal court, isn't it?
I know theres something about disputes in excess of $50000.
My daughter and I need that money and if he goes to jail, our chances of recovery are nil.
If his attorney knew of this and didn't report him, could she be held liable?
Should I go to the states attorney?
Any advice would be helpful, I don't want to put my daughter in danger as this man has guns.


Melody
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/04/07 11:54 AM
Refinancing loans is NOT income

He is simply taking out more loans and incurring more debt. it has no effect on child support because support is based on INCOME only....not what can or has been borrowed. It wasn't disclosed to you as income....because it ISN"T income. There are no tax ramifications....because is ISN"T income. I'm not sure what you mean by "dissipation issue", but it certainly isn't criminal to borrow money. I have no idea what the DV background has to do with this. I guess you're concerned over how your ex would react if you brought this to the attention of the courts? What grounds for an ex parte order do you have? Why would your ex go to jail, he's done nothing wrong by refinancing his assets?

I think you are over reacting. Is this a pending divorce? Or a modification for support? Either way, you are way off base in terms of what constitutes income.


emilar
(enthusiast)
08/04/07 12:21 PM
Re: Refinancing loans is NOT income

Marital assets! The man filled out false financial affidavits and has been claiming he could not afford his full statutory CS. Apparently you didn't read the whole thing- the man collected 11000 dollars in cash plus a 21000 debt. This is the second time he's done it. He didn't inform me and is definitely guilty of non support.
How dare you say I have no right to worry, when he tried to break his childs neck to get put out of this marriage.If you are in the least bit interested in finding the truth before you reply, read my other posts. I've been through hell and I know he will harm us for a lot less than this amount of financial misconduct.If you read on the news about a wife and child killed in Illinois in the following week, thank you in advance for your advice.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/04/07 08:38 PM
Re: Refinancing loans is NOT income

Loans are not income. I don't know why you would think it was. Excess loans are not taxed nor are they reported to the IRS, nor does one get a W-2 for taking out a personal loan.

I hope you are in hiding if you fear for your life that much. Have you sought a RO.


emilar
(enthusiast)
08/04/07 09:34 PM
Re: Refinancing loans is NOT income

I understand that. But downward manipulation of his income by incurring more debt to get out of paying support is illegal in illinois. Especially when he lyed to the court under oath that he could not afford more than half of what he is supposed to pay. And yes I do have a restraining order, but when has that ever stopped a pyscho who doesn't want to pay support. Lets just agree to disagree, apparently you have never heard of women and children getting killed for CS. I shouldnt have to hide, but will if I have to. I understand the tax thing, I just wanted to make sure I was covering my bases. Reducing the value of the marital estate without making the other party aware of it is fraud. I hope it never happens to you. I don't appreciate your sarcasm about my fear. Nor do I think it's necessary when there is a battered child in the mix. But good luck to you anyway. I'm at my wits end and not exactly calm. But I love my child and she didn't deserve this.

Renee
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/04/07 10:50 PM
Re: Refinancing loans is NOT income

I don't know where you get Miranda was being sarcastic - it sounded like a legitimate question. You would not believe the number of people who post here about their abusive situations and are too paralyzed by fear to get an RO.

In your first post you seem to be concerned about getting the cash he's pulled by refinancing in the form of cs. Perfectly reasonable to want him to pay cs; he should be contributing to her support. Then in the next post your focus seems to be on the fact that he didn't disclose the additional debt.

So to summarize, its appears that if he isn't going to pay the refinance $ in cs, you want him to pay the consequences for lying. If he handed you whats owed in cs would you be willing to forego pressing the issue in court? If so, has that been brought to his attn? Maybe he would be agreeable, especially seeing as he's already going to look pretty shabby in court with all of the dv issues; adding the lies to the mix will only hurt him worse.

Now before you go off on ME because I don't understand your situation, I understand it more than you realize. My father was a psychopath who abused my mother and me both. He never tried to strangle me, but his favorite method of discipline was to hold a loaded .38 to my head. He also stalked and terrorized both of us during the divorce, played hell with the finances, ruined her credit, and never paid a dime towards my support during the numerous times she left him. It was hell on earth and we got thru it.

You and your D will too. As worrying as your situation is to you, its not a rare one on these boards. I realize you've become accustomed to jumping to the defense and that you're in self-preservation mode, but save that energy for where its really needed.


Melody
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/04/07 11:22 PM
Where did you go to school?

You can't manipulate your income downward by taking on additional debt. All he is doing is increasing his debt. Support is based on gross income, NOT disposable income after debts.

emilar
(enthusiast)
08/05/07 01:45 PM
Re: Where did you go to school?

Thank you for your post and I'm gonna retract what I said about the sarcasm. I don't seem to be explaining the situation well and it's to complicated to write the whole story. All I know is he lyed bigtime, hurt his daughter, physically and mentally, and was allowed to continue the abuse for 2 years. That's just not right. That little girl loves her father and now can't even hear his voice without puking. So thanks for replying, I'm not gonna press the issue anymore- there's no way anyone could judge the full situation on one of these forums. Maybe after next week, I'll feel better. We're still alive and he's still gone that's the main thing.

Melody
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/05/07 03:00 PM
I think you need to focus a bit more

First it's about income fraud. Then it's about tax evasion. Then it's about domestic violence. Then it's about a restraining order. Then it's about messing with the child. Make up your mind. I think your priorities are all screwed up. If you are in danger, then deal with it. If the danger is due to YOUR actions regarding his financial decisions, then perhaps you should take yourself out of that scenario by minding your own business. If the CHILD is having problems, then THAT should be your priority.

emilar
(enthusiast)
08/05/07 04:35 PM
Re: I think you need to focus a bit more

Your right and I am. It still is about all those issues and more. I'm just at the end of a long ordeal and frazzled. Actually I usually am not so scattered. Sorry for yelling at you, Melody. Divorce is nasty business and I for one will never do it again. God Bless.
I still don't see how I can take myself out of his finances when they are not just his, and our financial future is at stake too. But I'm only a wife and mother not a legal expert and probably just don't get it.


Redlegg
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/05/07 10:28 PM
Re: I think you need to focus a bit more

The loans may give him cash, but they are no way considered income.

"I understand that. But downward manipulation of his income by incurring more debt to get out of paying support is illegal in illinois."

"I have found unreported income in excess of 40000 in cash from loans and savings accounts.
I need to know that if he refinanced marital vehicles, etc and received cash above the amount he owed.
Example car loan balance 11,000 refinances for 21000, receives 10,000 in cash. I pretty much think thats fraud upon myself and the child in terms of support, but are there tax ramifications of that?"

You seem to be saying he manipulated his incomeup, and then you say he is manipulating it down. He is not manipulating his income at all, he is manipulating his debt to income ratio, which shouldnot affect his CS requirement. If he is not paying, you need to take action.

The car loan, well he either owes 21000 for a car that is not worth it, or he has decided to pay for it a second time, either way he is borrowing money against a car he owns. What he should do with the money, and what he will do are two very different things. I know its hard, but you have to remain calm, you can handle all of these issues, but you have to handle them, not let them grow and seem unmanageable. Take them one at a time in needed, and set yoru priorities. Its never easy and it takes time, but you will start to see that things can change for the better. Patience and perseverence are the key. Remember not everyone here is trying to sharpshoot your posts, they just want the most complete picture to give you their best opinion.


emilar
(enthusiast)
08/06/07 10:50 AM
Re: I think you need to focus a bit more

I agree and see my post as a hysterical reaction to everything thats happened. But the car thing is, it is not his car, Illinois law regards all property bought after the marriage regardless of title marital property. Am I wrong about that.

(You seem to be saying he manipulated his incomeup, and then you say he is manipulating it down. He is not manipulating his income at all, he is manipulating his debt to income ratio, which shouldnot affect his CS requirement. If he is not paying, you need to take action. )

I agree I had that part messed up. What you are saying is because his debt to income ratio has changed it doesnt affect the amount of CS because his net income will not include these debts. So he will have to pay his support based on his income before the payment of his debts are considered.(right)
If he incurred this debt on marital property, am I going to have to help pay it?
The savings accounts are different story. This is money he said he didn't have and could have been used for support. I have 4 Financial Affidavits that he has amended and corrected and still don't show this income. The deposits were direct deposits from his wages and if I'm not mistaken aren't all wages marital funds.
Soon it will be done and I can get on with my life. I really think I'm lucky in a way even broke. He has and never will have any control over my life again regardless.

Thanks for replying.


Redlegg
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/06/07 12:11 PM
Re: I think you need to focus a bit more

I am sure he has to pay his support requirements based on his income, remove debt from the issue. The savings account will probably have to be decided in court, I would hate to be the guy that told you they are half yours and I was wrong. Things like that are best left to greater minds than mine. Times will get tough and when you think they are over, you will have to interact at some level again, but it sounds like you are preparing and that is a good thing. I hope it gets better and things will look up.

emilar
(enthusiast)
08/09/07 04:06 PM
update

Hi everybody,
Court was today and I am free. You were all right. He has to pay all his debts and his child support is based on his net, which he tried to say was 2397. The judge asked me how I figured it and we went together came up with 5278. He was screaming, he asked to modify his child support downward to $500. The judge came up with 1100 plus maintenance. I told her I would except 35% UNALLOCATED support. Thats 1580. She looked like it was reasonable. We go back Sept 9. I feel so much better, but he is pissed. They are not going to penalize DD for his bills are they. I cant see how that would be fair at all. But I'm done. Yee! Hah!


Melody
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
08/19/07 01:28 AM
Glad to hear

that things went well for you in court. I'm also glad to hear that much of the advice you received was correct. Good luck to you.

emilar
(enthusiast)
08/19/07 10:02 AM
Re: Glad to hear

Thanks Melody. I just think it was nerves. This divorce had taken so long that I was at the end of the roap. Now that I can breathe again, I have more oxygen going to my brain. LOL Sorry Guys for jumping on you.


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