| Melanie1 |
| (addict) |
| 12/23/06 07:17 AM |
How much do you tell the kids?
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Hi All,
Boy, I'm posting up a storm, when I really should be cleaning, doing last minute Christmas shopping, preparing for the holiday, wrapping presents, etc. But nope, I'm here on the board cause I'm so wound up and stressed, I can't focus on anything else. At least not right now. Maybe after I hang out online for a bit and the morning progresses, I'll get my rear in gear and do what I need to do!
Anyway, my question and thoughts are about how much do you tell your kids about the divorce, the true nature of the STBX or X, vs just keeping it all to yourself when you know the STBX or X is truly a nasty piece of work or has major problems?
I'll be interested in reading all perspectives. I know with me, I've covered for the X pretty much up till just this year. I made excuses for his behavior, and told the kids regardless of his actions, that he loves them (and I believe he does in his own warped way), etc.
But for the first time I opened up to the YS about the X and I'm wondering whether I should have. A while back in September when the X called and basically fired the first shot of a legal battle, YS was there and saw that I was visably shaken up and about to start crying. He asked what was wrong and I spilled forth. He thanked me for telling him and when I spoke with his counselor and told him what happened, he said it was a good thing.
But how much do you tell the kids about the marriage, the divorce, and/or about the true nature of their mother or father? Shouldn't they find out stuff on their own? Won't they shoot the messenger down the road? Or do they need to be clued in on what really goes on? And if so, how much do you tell?
If the X didn't push me or play games, I would NEVER say anything negative about him or try and explain that his behavior was not appropriate and damaging. But the past year he's pushed, and pushed, and pushed and I'm at the point where I feel that maybe the kids need an explanation of what's happening so they have an understanding.
I don't know. I'm so confused.
Melanie
| Runswithscissors |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 12/23/06 07:45 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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My ex husband is a wonderful father, so I have never had to make excuses for his behavior with our daughter.....
In the past year, she has started asking why we divorced... I didn't go into the control, the manipulation....instead I just said "he wasn't a good husband and I wasn't a good wife". THEN she's asked me why HE has custody..... (that one is harder to answer). I told her that I had custody several times, and that he kept going back for custody.... I said that the last time I gave him custody because I was tired of fighting and I was pregnant with twins and lost one of the twins. She said "you gave up on me?". OUCH! I said.. no, not at all..... I said when your father and I were fighting for custody... we were mean people... I said we fought, we didn't speak to each other... and we didn't like each other... I said when I decided to stop the fight... we became friends....I asked "is that a bad thing?".... and she said "no". I said it would be different if I never saw you, but I see you as much, sometimes more than you dad...
I don't know if she ever asks her father... but I always wonder what he would say.
| BB1 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 12/23/06 07:57 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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I think it is age dependant. Your kids are old enough to know the truth. I wouldn't just call a meeting a say here is how it is but when your ex pulls something like this past ski trip, you can say I'm sick of this shi+ and boys you need to know how it really is. I think for toddlers and kids they need a certain level of protection while they grow, work on an identity for themselves and their confidence level. Once a child has that, they should be prepared to hear it as it is and make an informed, objective decision.
In my case, my ex was horrible...you know that but I wasn't wife of the year either. My ex talked a great deal of trash to my daughter about me and not once took accountability for his failures in our marriage. During the first few years I would cover by saying he's so angry or I wish he wouldn't say bad things about me. So, when my daughter said [I think she was around 15yo then. The years have all blended together now.] "daddy called you a slu+ again", I said, listen A, it went like this...yes, I did something very wrong and I shouldn't have did it but daddy was no angel either during our marriage. I told her a few things like how he would stay out all night and not call. Then I said if you want to know anything else just ask. And she did...Did daddy ever cheat? Yes. With who? I don't know. Did daddy ever do drugs? Yes. What kind? Weed and Meth. Does he still? No. Is that why you cheated? No. That was my bad choice. I'm sorry I did it and I hope you never do.
So, you see, I told her what she needed to know - he did, I did - then opened it up for her to get the details SHE wanted not what I wanted to give her...make sense? Then I gave her short answers and didn't go into how many times daddy stayed out, or smoked weed, or cheated. I just told her he did. It wasn't a formal sit down discussion and it didn't all happen at once. Sometimes she'd inquire during dinner or while I was driving or cooking. Sometimes she'd just ring my cell phone but I always gave her an honest answer when she asked.
Wrapping up my babble now...
I do think your kids are old enough to know the truth because they have managed through the crazy teen years. Your YS might have trouble hearing it since he's so close to your ex and has issues of his own but since he's been in that school and is seemingly better, he should be mentally/emotionally strong enough to hear the truth.
| LadyBugRN |
| (veteran) |
| 12/23/06 08:14 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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This is a tough one Melanie... I know I may get criticized for this maybe, but I did what I thought was best. For me, I've only really shared anything with my oldest son, who is old enough to understand (will be 22 in January) and who out right asked. It happened just within the last few weeks, before his dad came to visit. I did not go into any nitty gritty details ever. He wanted my prospective, he needed to understand and in a very general way I explained it to him. It was directed as in why the divorce happened and of course, he was fully aware it was only my side of things. I never once gave him specific details. It was not about slamming and tearing apart his dad, it was about explaining how for me, the marriage fell apart.
This came about because my OS was very confused as to why his dad acts the way he does and treats him the way he does. I explained that it has everything to do with something deep inside his dad, that was not our fault, or could any of us ever have done something to deserve all that's happened. It actually brought my son and I much closer together, I think he really started to understand me for the first time, my hurt, my pain, and in it my son could relate it to his own confused feelings and hurt. We've been much closer since. It is almost as if he trusts me more with his own feelings now because he knows I can relate and he knows I was honest with him. I somehow validated his own confusion and hurt, letting him know I've been there to and I do understand.
Hope this maybe helps?
Lori
| Melanie1 |
| (addict) |
| 12/23/06 08:42 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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Hi Guys,
I gotta get my rear in gear and moving or else I'll never get anything done. But I wanted to thank each and everyone of you who responded. It's helping and giving me food for thought.
Meanwhile, keep those responses coming as I think we all can learn something from each one. I'll check back later in the day if I get a few free moments.
Thanks again!
Melanie
| Curmudgeon |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 12/23/06 08:54 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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If the children will be placed in any form of peril or harm in company with the ex I would certainly discuss that with them.
Beyond that, I subscribe to the approach my wife took with her ex whom she's always classified as a "sorry SOB." She warned their daughters about his drinking telling them that if he'd been drinking they were to call her to come get them (as per court order prohibiting his use of alcohol around them). Beyond that, she kept silent to let the girls have their own, uninfluenced relationships with their father and know him on their terms, not hers or anyone elses.
In my case, while I may have slipped on occasion I tried my level best to never say anything negative about the ex or our 25-year marriage. I didn't have to. Children are very perceptive and three of the five now want nothing to do with her while two are rather ambivalent towards her. She moved away and sees none of them.
Over the years, three of the four of them, separately and on their own have approached me and complained about how she treated them and how they remember me stepping in as a buffer on many occasions. I just listen. I don't have to comment. They're all glad for me that I'm no longer married to her and have found happiness with someone else.
| Karen1 |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 12/23/06 11:45 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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My son was 23 when my EX chose to leave our 30 year marriage. Other than speaking of how shocked I was... and bemoan that I could not convince EX to go to counseling, I did not share much info with son. EX and I went to an attorney a few weeks after he left. We got info on dissolution process and the attorney advised us on what he felt a judge would order as temp arrangements if I one of us would file. We split the expenses in a 1/3 me, 2/3 ex and he made 3 times my salary, and agreed to work toward dissolution. I gave that a 20 month try, and finally filed for divorce. Interestingly enough, the judge's order for temp spousal was more each month than Ex's 2/3 of expense had been as we just did that for house related stuff, utilities, taxes, insurance and repairs. I paid my own medical, car insurance, payment etc. The judge calcualted our income and all expenses and I was further ahead.
Sorry for the history, but thought it might relate. Once I filed for divorce, my son became frustrated over why it was all taking so long (perhaps EX had blamed me for that?) and so I told him the above, and of the difficulties I had had, and the extra attorney fees invovled for me, in getting the information I needed to come to settlement. There was no way to sugar coat the fact that EX had not cooperated in answering my attorney's requests for financial info. That is why I filed, so that I could use the court to get that info, and I was fed up with getting no where for 20 months. My son was shocked to know that once I filed my attorney estimated it would take 1.5 years unless EX saw the light on equitable distribution and we could reach a settlement agreement. From that point, as my son said he wanted to hear the legal update, and when he would ask me, I did so. Did not take long for him to reach to "divorce burn out" stage. His decision then was to distance himself from both of us and that period was the worst of my life.
As I type this, I think of how 5 days before our sons wedding, and just 8 days before our final hearing, after both signing a settlment agreement a month prior... EX fired his attorney, got a new one and petitioned to have the signed agreement set aside and go back. His new attorney used outright lies in his attempt to convince the judge. I had my witness there who could testify that those were lies. My attorney did a good job, and the judge also IMO because he said it was going forth with the agreement and told EX and his attorney to leave the court room.
To this day I can't remember if my son knows this or not. I do know I did not, would not, drop that bomb shell on him prior to his wedding and just can't remember any conversation with son regarding this so I have to assume I did not. I also do not think my son knows that EX petitioned the court in early Jan. of 2006 that I was in comtempt of the CO regarding sale of house. This was after the dead period between Thanksgiving and New Year for showings. During that time there was one request and I was home from work ill... running from both ends. I told the realtor they were welcome to come but I would not be leaving the house. The lookers opted out, did not want exposed to what Ihad. One other request for showing, and they asked to come in 1/2 hour. Was a SUnday morning, I was not even dressed yet and needed to do a quick pick up cleaning. I advised could be ready in an hour and they opted out as they were trying tuy squeeze the showing in between 2 others they had. And for that EX decided I was deliberating trying to delay selling of our home and took me to court. I countered with claim for my attorney fees on it as both my attorney and myself felt it was a bogus claim and that he was doing it do harass me.We proceeded and had a court date scheduled. Ironically that ended up being the day we had the closing for sale of our home. I could have pressed it for my attorney fees, but they were minimal at that point so instead she sent EX a letter saying I would drop my counter claim if he would drop his and reminded him it was a moot point as the house had sold. EX bit at that in a heartbeat because he has seen the court order him to pay on my attorney fees during the divorce.
I think this is something you just have to follow your instincts on. My feeling on the 2 court things mentioned above was.... my son had obviously gotten to the point that he did not want to hear the legal details (even though he would ask for updates every time we talked) and I did not want to risk his going through that again.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Part of me thinks that our adult kids need to know some of the things our EX's have put us through... and part of me thinks not.
Karen
| Melanie1 |
| (addict) |
| 12/24/06 04:52 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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Hi Karen,
I'm glad you posted about all the legal stuff as I can relate. Same sort of stuff happened with the X while we were divorcing. And now more ugly stuff, legally, is going on which the X started, that YS has no clue about. And I think I'll keep it that way unless circumstances dictate otherwise.
However, to be honest, there's a part of me that wants to tell YS everything; every dirty little deed the X has done; all the nasty maneuverings; all the lies and self serving actions he's taken over the years. It seems so unfair that YS only sees the 'nice' side of X and believes he's a upstanding citizen and good guy, when I know different. Though I think cracks in the X's teflon coating are starting to show and YS is getting glimpses of what he's really like deep, down underneath. Or maybe he knows but doesn't care and loves the X anyway.
Bottom line is that for now, I'll keep all legal stuff under raps, as well as all the ugliness for as long as I can. But it's hard and sometimes I just want to blurt it all out...
Melanie
| Curmudgeon |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 12/24/06 10:19 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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Fight the urge to tell all, Melanie. That could backfire and end up with you being the one resented. Children can be doggedly loyal where their parents are concerned, even the bad ones, and don't want to hear it. Children are also very perceptive. YS will figure it out all in good time. He doesn't need your help to do so.
Noone ever said sticking to the high road was easy!
| Karen1 |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 12/24/06 07:16 PM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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You are welcome Melanie. I know it was a long post but felt the need to get the legal BS stuff in there.
I have had to fight that urge also... but I do it. ALthough whenever my son of d-i-l tell me of something the EX did that ticked them off or they thought was stupid... inwardly I laugh like heck. He and his GF (was OW before he left our marriage) were there on Friday. They were supposed to get there at 5 pm and instead called at 1 and said they were 15 minutes away. D-i-l was at work and son was to spiff up their place. He had not done so yet as he thought he had plenty of time. Plus they brought one of her daughters along and they just flat out do not like her or her lifestyle. They were venting a bit about EX... and then my son told me about a lot of things I did with him growing up and how much he appreciated that.
I spend the day and evening with my son and daughter in law in Cincinnati, about 1.5 to 2 hours drive time. ALthough today it went much quicker as traffic was moving at 75 - 80 plus (is legally 65) and so of course I was forced to keep up. Not that I minded!. Was the first I had been their new place since they moved there. It is a really cute apartment in the upstairs of a house. Neighborhood is just beautiful, with well kept houses that were probably built in the 40's - 60's... the kind of city neighborhood I love. It was so great to spend that time with them.. and my christmas spirit kicked in the morning. I am sure the reason for that is that I was going to see my baby and his wife!
It is not fair that your EX can provide all the bait... on the other hand, maybe deep down he knows that is the only way he is going to see them? I think that often our kids know more than they let on... and one day they get older and actually tell us that.
I hope you sons get there when they advised they would and that you have a great Christmas and time with them.
Karen
| KiwiGirl |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 12/25/06 08:58 AM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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As you know my ex walked out on me and the kids on 2 Jan 2000. A week later he left the country for his homeland (next country). How do you explain to kids who worship their dad that he is not coming back and why did he leave?
My ex lost his parents 9 yrs apart and he never really got over their deaths or put them into perspective. He refused counselling and any kind of help. In fact he put it all down to work stress. So this is what I told the kids. Dad has problems dealing with things and feels he has to leave. HE told the kids I didn't keep the house tidy enough for him.
They still probed more and I was at a loss what to tell them. They needed to truth and as I was not the one who left I felt it was dreadfully unfair to dump this stuff on me. In the end I told them the truth as I saw it "I have no idea. But dad got grandma's house and money in Australia and I guess he doesn't want me to have any of it." And that was pretty much the truth.
Would I do it differently? Yes I would. Well maybe. We hide so much of what we consider 'adult' stuff from our kids to protect them. But why lie or omit the truth? Is it ideal to promote this magic wonderland of childhood that is just not real? Small doses of reality lets the kids learn you will not lie but nor will you deliberately hurt them beyond their understanding. "I am sorry, daddy is living somewhere else now." rather than "Your father has moved in with the town bike! Bastard!"
Nowdays my ex is living off his credit card (deja vu moment there) and has a mortgage on a home he inherited freehold with enough money to renovate.
The kids see his faults as well as mine. I tend to get neutral now when the kids complain about him "Oh well, thats your dad for you."
| Karen1 |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 12/25/06 12:25 PM |
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Re: How much do you tell the kids?
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Dot.. my EX also had a hard time with his parents loss.
His Mom died in 94 and along with the grief, we were concerned about Pop. He was like a little lost soul and so lonely. (I came to know what he was going thru) They lived 3 hours north of us but we were off week ends from our jobs and made many trips up there. 2 years later Pop married and was happy. He died in 99. Once both parents were gone my EX started into a decline and he too could have benefitted from counseling. We loved the step mom, but EX put her out of his life because she opted to take her 1/3 of the value of the house. IMO she earned that and more. He has one sib, a brother and he also put him out of his life and they just recently, almost 7 years later, reconciled.
Another similarity is that my EX has run up credit to the max, bought more house than he can afford. The bank mistakenly sent his loan app as he needed to sign it, to me at our marital home... I opened it without even seeing it was not to me. Of course I read it adn it was full of lies. Said he was sole owner of our home and would get all of the money for the sale of the house, put down his employers address as that of OW, whom he was living with. Lied about no court ordered support also. I guess he wanted anything that might be sent to his employer to be sent to him so that he could answer it. Judging from his debt column total, I imagine he felt in order to get the loan he had to lie. I was in a bit of a dilema as to what to do... since I knew he was lying. I chose to just ignore it, deciding if he was dumb enough to have obviously let the bank think he lived in our home, then he could just contact them when he did not recieve it.
So many of take the high road with our kids in how we answer their questions. I think the do see things for what they are eventually and will appreciate that we did so.
The house was not tidy enough? Give me a break.. that is a dumb an answer as to why he split up your family as my EX's was to our son... he said he decided he was never going to be unhappy again. Not too realistic IMO.
Other than being so far from your kids, your life is better now and you have your DH. Maybe one day your kids will decide to mover close to you. We can always hope for stuff like that to happen!
Merry Christmas to you.
Karen