| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 04:04 PM |
When should our kids leave home?
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I am wondering what others' opinions are on this topic. More and more, it seems that it is more acceptable to allow your children to live with you long past the age of 18.
In my day, we were all but kicked out after we graduated high school, so that's what I am used to. I am grateful for that shove, because I am very independant and have learned many survival skills.
I think allowing our kids to live at "home" while they pursue a career (whether it be college or otherwise) restricts that child's opportunity for growth. For instance, if a young adult never experiences that too-small apartment with roommates that fight over who bought toilet paper last, never experiences lugging laundry to the laundrymat, never learns how to deal with a crummy car that breaks down all the time.....won't they be missing out on important life experiences/lessons???
What do you think???
| Debi |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:06 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Right at this moment I'm thinking 2 of them are leaving today at ages 9 and 11!
| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 04:08 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I hear you! Take a deep breath! Then take several more! I have a 7yo and a 10yo. AND a 21yo SD. ;)
| Susanf31 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:09 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Yep, that's how I was raised. I remember my 1st apartment. I needed Brillo. I reached under the sink and there was NO BRILLO! WTF!?! What did I think...that God just put Brillo under every sink?? LOL Yes, that must be what I thought. I was soooo torked that I had to take my fun money and go buy Brillo! Grrrr
But, these are different times. Sometimes kids so need to live at home to save up for their first place or to get through college. As long as my kids are attending college full-time, I will suppliment their living arrangements. If they aren't in school fulltime, they can support themselves.
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 04:10 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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My husband and I don't plan on kicking my son out once he turns 18. We want him to be able to concentrate on college. Also, he plans to go to law school. We want him to be able to succeed without the added stress of supporting himself. It is a small price to pay to help him have that kind of advantage in life.
To be honest with you, we enjoy his company. Our home isn't the same when he is gone. If he wanted to leave earlier, that would be up to him.
| Debi |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:11 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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On a more serious note I lived at home until I was 20. If my kids are willing to follow my rules they can live at home while attending college if they choose (and providing that by that time I don't have a husband who feels differently) If they don't go to college and choose to enter the work force they can have one year while paying minimal rent to save enough to move out. Unless they really DO leave today. It's getting closer!
| Susanf31 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:12 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I'd like to add that if the parents can afford it, I think kids *should* of *off* to college and experience all that entails.
But if they can't afford it, I'd rather see a kid live at home and go to college than not go to college because they are working to support an apartment.
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 04:16 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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The area we live in is within driving distance to some of the best schools in the country (UCLA, USC). I can afford to pay for those on my own provided he doesn't live there.
Law school is another matter. The best schools are out of state. I would rather put the big money into one of those. I would have a hard time being able to pay for him to go away to school for all 7 years.
| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 04:24 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I don't know....I am just of the mindset that we are just giving our children too much these days. Whatever happened to student loans, working yourself through college, rooming with 3 other girls to split costs? Buying your own used car?
So many people want to give their kids what they never had....when will it end?
I know...probably not the popular opinion, but I feel strongly about this.
| Dee78 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:31 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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As long as they follow the rules, contribute to the household, and are in school or working fulltime then I don't have a problem with them living at home. It's their choice to make. We are only 5 miles from a private college, 20 or so miles from Univ of TN. And there are about a half dozen other colleges in this area that they could attend while living at home. Why shouldn't they stay home and go to college...focus on their studies instead of whether they can pay the water bill?
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 04:33 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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SM, I am going to be 50 this month, and at some point in the next 30-40 years, I want to be able to die in peace. :)
A large part of that will be knowing that my son is well educated, and has a good job. If I can stack the deck in his favor, then I will.
He is a year ahead in school, so by the time he finishes law school, he will only be 24. That is plenty of time to experience all the struggles of life.
If I can let him have a start without all the debt, then I will.
| RJ1 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:34 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I believe there is no right answer and it just depends on your own specific family. I also believe lots of these "children" grow up way too quickly and have seen enough trials and tribulations before age 18 that would make all of us adults shudder. I do not believe one must "suffer" to learn. Parents should teach their children "life lessons" the best way they can...then once the children live out in the real world they will be better equipped to deal with negatives in life. And everyone grows up at different rates. And sooner or later EVERYONE learns the hard truths about life.
My parents paid for college and my car. I'm successful and happy and know ALL about life. My cousin got student loans and borrowed cars...she's an unhappy alcoholic still paying the loans and will probably never see daylight. So you can't make broad statements that are all inclusive to everyone.
Everyone's different.
My son is welcome in my home as long as he wants to be there...as long as he follows the rules. I was 23 when I left home and I never went back and never asked for anything from my parents. My college education was the best thing my parents ever did for me and I am doing the same for my son.
RJ
| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 04:38 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I hear you......
I can see where you are coming from. Like I said, I wanted to know what others thought. I completely respect your opinion!
| Susanf31 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:46 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I totally agree with you, Nrvs!
No matter if our parents bought our first car or paid for our college or not, we all learned how to scrub a floor and buy toilet paper.
Some of us started buying our own toilet paper at 18, some at 22. But in the bigger picture, we all learned it.
I don't think someone needs to owe $50,000, $100,000 in student loans to "understand" the world.
I don't think a 19 year old needs to make a $300 car payment to be successful in life.
There's PLENTY of time to pay bills in our lifetime. I don't think the difference between starting at 18 or starting at 22 really matters at all!
| youngatheart |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:46 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I agree with you to a degree. I've never intended on paying 100% for my kids to go to college. However, they WILL have a home here if they need it while going to school. I would prefer that to them living on campus (and MUCH less expensive). And, at the local universities here, you cannot live off campus your Freshman year unless you are living at home with your parents.
| PhoenixRising |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:46 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I moved out at 17 but was one of those that moved back several times..
I have to sell the family home after the youngest turns 21..
I am 50. The last will be out after I turn 60.
I have no plans of buying another big house in my old age. A condo in a retirement community will be more my speed. It will have a guest room or two and they will always be welcome but they will be guests. The house will no longer be as "child friendly".
I want to have grown-up nice looking furniture that stays nice-looking. Oh well, I can always day-dream...
| matart1 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:47 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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hehe - my husband's ex is living the american dream right now, her uneducated butt has decided that educatio really is not important but love is - their soon to be 18 yr will turn 19 in Sept, will be without our medical insurance, has no job, has about a 9th grade education when it stopped and she pulled him out of the Job Corp program before he could even complete 2 weeks and to top it off - he sits at home all day playing the Xbox 360 she felt he should have......hope she has lots of love for that one....
their 15/soon to be 16 year is following the footsteps to greatness also.
they did not have grades like that while they lived with us.
for our children.
our oldest is in the 3rd grade and made straight A's the entire year and will finish it out with A's. our youngest is in Pre-K.
they both have the same academic aptitude.
our youngest does a lot of the same things that our oldest does.
we will encourage college. we have encouraged and they have large ideas of big dreams and know that education and college can see that through.
but at the moment we will cross that hurdle when it gets here.
| Susanf31 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:52 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Reminds me...I didn't have many chores growning up. Someone said to my mother "How is she going to know how to clean floors or scrub toilets if you don't make her do it when she's young?"
Fast forward...
My mom asked me once I was grown up and we were discussing chores..... "how long did it take you to learn how to scrub the floor or clean the toilet once you had a place of your own?" I said "It took me two tries." The first time I tried to scrub the floor without vacuuming it first. The second time, I had it figured out!"
I don't think we need to make our kids work full time, go to school full time, pay their own tuition, make their own carpayment at 19. They don't have to carry all of that on their shoulders immediately after highschool to be successful adults.
On the radio today they were having call-in's about how much you owed on your student loans. Many, many of them were FRESH out of college making UNDER $30k a year, OWING OVER $50k. They'll be paying it off until they are 50!
I dont want that for my kids.
| rocketgirl |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 04:57 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I agree 100%!!!!!
Our country is going to be in VERY sad shape when all these children with all these entitlement issues start running it. Hopefully I'm dead or so old by that time, I just won't care....
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 05:00 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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My husband grew up with maids! He would take off his clothes, drop them on the floor, and somehow or another, they would end up washed and folded in his dresser. It wasn't until he came to this country that he learned there was actually a process involed here. Still he figured it out. It is not rocket science.
I don't want my kid to struggle like I did. He got to experience that early on in my divorce.
He has a taste for the finer things in life. He knows that if he wants to maintain the lifestyle he is use to, then he has to do his time in college. If he works/studies like a bum, then he will be living like a bum...
| Susanf31 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 05:04 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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My husband grew up with maids! He would take off his clothes, drop them on the floor, and somehow or another, they would end up washed and folded in his dresser. It wasn't until he came to this country that he learned there was actually a process involed here. Still he figured it out. It is not rocket science.
++++++++
Yep, exactly. Except it was my grandmother. She'd come over every day and do our laundry, clean the house, make our beds...EVERYTHING.
Yet, somehow as an adult, I DID figure out how to run my own household even though I never had to do a lick of chores as a child.
Paying bills, cleaning the house, buying your first car...isn't rocket science and you don't have to be 18 or 19 when you start doing those things. If you start them at 22 won't make you a less successful adult.
| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 05:09 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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That is my thinking, also.
People say times are different now. Anyone stop to wonder why?
There is a show called "Worlds Apart" where an American family lives with a 3rd world community for 2 weeks and learns their daily life and culture. I wish I could take my family to do that. The families all say it was a life-changing experience for them, and they now view the world differently.
I know I had many chores as a child. I had to plan breafast/lunch menus and make the meals, do laundrt, clean the bathroom, etc. Chores rotated between siblings.
Not only did I learn how to plan, cook, and clean, but I gained respect for my parents and learned a certain work ethic.
It is hard to "teach" life lessons. You have to experience them.
| Gecko |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 05:14 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I am wondering what others' opinions are on this topic. More and more, it seems that it is more acceptable to allow your children to live with you long past the age of 18.
---> Actually, we're just going back to basics. Prior to the big divorce boom and having children out of wedlock became so popular (within the last 25 years)...parents didn't kick their kids to curb when they graduated from high school. Until the 60s...it was NOT unusal for "children" to live at home until they got married.
---> The fact is...our children are LESS prepared these days to enter the REAL world than they were just thirty years ago...which explains why so many "kids" move back home. For the last 20 - 25 years, we've handed our children life on a silver platter (whether sterling or plated). They have no conception of reality...of responsibility...of accountability. They've got credit card debt, they have expensive cars and student loans.
---> I look at our oldest daughter...she's 21 and lives at home and will probably be there for awhile yet because she can't afford to live on her own even though she's got a good job. Instead of paying her school debt and legal fines...she bought a PSP thingy with accessories and Gawd knows how many games. Instead of saving money, she's out partying and is constantly "broke". Mind you...she has NO "living expenses"...Dad doesn't charge her "room and board".
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 05:17 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Not so SM...My son has a very strong work ethic and has respect. He doesn't have to suffer in order to have gained that.
It isn't only the poor and struggling who have a monopoly on those traits.
| changes |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 05:19 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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[quote]Right at this moment I'm thinking 2 of them are leaving today at ages 9 and 11! [/quote]
Tell'em to stick together and between them they got 20 years of experience to fall back on.
| Gecko |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 05:20 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I don't know....I am just of the mindset that we are just giving our children too much these days.
---> I agree. I went through a recent CS mod...technically and legally, it should have been backdated and oldest daughter ordered to pay me back monies, but golly gee...that would have been just so wrong you know; let's take away HER responsibility and HER choice and NOT hold her accountable.
| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 05:21 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Nervous,
True.
Every child is different. Some are more inclined to be responsible.
I don't see it as suffering. I see it as "life".
| spinnerdegrassi |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 05:23 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I know a very easy way to not let the entitlement attitude overwhelm me when it comes to my SD.
I say no, her mom says no, and her father says no. When she wanted a car a few years back, we all told her no. We weren't buying her one. If she wanted one, she could work for it. So she did. Same applied to a multitude of other scenarios.
Thankfully I don't have the inherent guilt complex that my wife and her ex do, and it allows me to stand as a voice of ojective reason when the child at times attempts to manipulate emotions to get her way.
| Gecko |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 05:28 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Some people say that kids should be kids...that they grow up so fast these days...I say bullshyt. My kids might be more knowledgable about certain aspects of "life" than what I was at their age, but I had a hell of lot more practical experience than they do.
| supermansdaisy |
| (addict) |
| 05/02/07 05:28 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Yea for you, Spinner! You also hit on a good point. How much of this overindulgence comes as a result of guilt? Wanting to overcompensate by giving more to children in monetary ways?
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 05:45 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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SM, many of us work hard and advance so that our children will have a better life than we did. It is not always about feeling guilty.
I want my son to have all the advantages I didn't. In turn, I hope he provides that and more for his children. Along the way, you still teach your children the value of a dollar, and how to be self sufficient for when the time comes that they will need to be.
Believe it or not, this is one of the few countries in the world where children leave home so early. In most others, they continue to live at home past their 20s.
| elliesmom |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 05:52 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I left home early (sort of) at 14 to go to a boarding high school (my choice). I was grateful that I wasn't one of the kids who had never done laundry or wondered how beds got made without a maid there (ok, one girl's parents used to send a maid to clean her room on room inspection day which I thought was outrageous). There is no way I'd ever want to go back home.
I don't think it is a big deal to have kids live at home for a while - as long as there is an end goal in mind that doesn't begin with "after my band makes it big..."
I had a friend who lived at home after college until her student loans were paid off. No big deal. As long as your parents can let you be an adult (i.e. let you worry about your own food, laundry, social life, etc.) I don't think it has to be a bad thing.
| Rebecca5 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 06:13 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I think it depends on a lot of things.
Where we lived in NH, it was common for kids to stay at home longer, because the COL is so high. The average rent for a 1-bedroom apartment is about $1200...not including utilities. So by the time you add the outrageous cost of local utilities (our water bill was $400 per quarter), maybe a car payment (no POS cars, they must pass inspection) and car insurance (not required, and it's very high)...it'll run you an easy $2300 or so....BEFORE groceries, gas (no public transportation), registration (a % of the value of your car), clothes, etc...
Because I *want* my kids to start off on the right foot, and not living in the red at 18 years old....I'd be more inclined to let them live at home until they at *least* graduate from college....and more likely until they are making a livable wage.
Honestly...I know quite a few people who lived at home until they married...simply because one income wasn't enough to make the ends meet.
Now...in central IL...you can get a one-bedroom for $300. There's a lot of public resources because it's a high student population....10+ colleges within an hour....utilities are cheap, car insurance is cheap, you can drive an older car (if you even need one), etc, etc.
Anyway....different choices for different people....as long as it works for their family. I don't think any ONE thing...like the age a child leaves home....is a big deal.
| Debi |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 06:26 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Since they already think they are grown that should work!
| JennyLynn |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 08:45 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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I think it completely depends on the child, the parents, and the cirumstances.
I left home when I was 18 and went to college. I came home some during the summer time and Christmas break.
Didn't move back home til last November :). Boy was that hard!!
My sister lived at home til she was 21...she went to a community college nearby, whereas I moved off and went to a university and joined a sorority and had more of the college life away from home.
Like I said, I think it just depends, there's no right or wrong answer, just depends on what's best for all involved, and what works.
| rocketgirl |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 09:18 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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[quote] They've got credit card debt, they have expensive cars and student loans.[/quote]
They learn what they see... since Mommy and Daddy have all these things, the kids think they should also.
My grandmother would have rather starved than put a thing on a credit card.
| Gecko |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 09:34 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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You want to know what the biggest consumer debt is for college students...cell phones. And you want to know why...because they have no freaking clue or control! They've been on Mommy & Daddy's Plan and perhaps lived with "restrictions", but now they're "adults" and get their own cell phones and get to talk as much as they want the the next things you know...they owe a couple of grand.
| Rebecca5 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 09:36 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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"They learn what they see... since Mommy and Daddy have all these things, the kids think they should also."
Maybe sometimes...but I think that it has a lot more to do with college campuses that allow Citibank and their brethren to set up a table on the quad. If you fill out their groovy little application, they'll give you a free t-shirt, coupons for a free pizza and a $1000 credit limit. Did you know that if your child is a freshman in college, the credit card companies can consider them "employed" full-time and use their tuition expenses as "proof of income"? I can't even begin to list the number of kids I know that are more than $10K in the whole in credit cards....a week before graduation. I makes me want to hurl.
I've already promised my children that I will hunt them down and slap them silly if they apply for ANYTHING before they have livable wages.
| nrvouswrk |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 05/02/07 09:48 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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My son is 15 (!!!), and not a week goes by that he isn't sent a pre-approved credit card application. He doesn't even have a job!
| KiwiGirl |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 10:10 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Well my daughter left home as soon as she graduated high school. In fact a couple of weeks after turning 18.
She had a job and no intention of going to college. She was pregnant and going to live 'happily ever after' with her boyfriend... who was living with his parents. So she moved in there (over my dead body).
A year later she is not happy. She is cleaning hospital rooms because it pays more than her call centre job. BF has found another construction job but entertains his friends all the time. They do not have any savings and my poor grand-daughter has horrendous reflux and screams from 4-11 every night. That in itself has major expenses.
Now his parents have bought them a car so they can both work at opposite ends of the city. They are also loooking for day care for our grand-daughter. Yup, still enabling them to live the life they want. I won't enable my daughter. If she is old enough to make these decisions she is old enough to fund them. I give advice and support but no money.
On the other hand my older daughter has been living on her own more or less since she was 17 1/2. She got a job in another country and moved in with her father. She did her own thing and then moved back to NZ. Since then she has taken on tertiary courses in her field and bought a house.
Personally, if a child needs to live at home so they can attend school and agree to live by the house rules for adults, fine. If they want to party and use the place as a launching pad and ignore house rules they can move out.
| rocketgirl |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 10:14 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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And if Mommy and Daddy had done a good job teaching their kids about finances.. NOT waiting until they are 22 and out on their own (Susan), they would know enough and be scared enough of credit cards to turn them down flat.
| Rebecca5 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 10:18 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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My dad did a great job, he thought....preached the good word. I watched him crawl out of debt for most of my life. When the hottie with the clip board approached me (at 18), I filled it out and got his phone number....telling myself that I'd just cancel it when it arrived. Uh huh. Okay...maybe I'll save it for "emergencies." New boots ARE an emergency, no?
Sometimes, Mommy and Daddy can do their very best, and kids make their own choices anyway. Odd how that happens.
| jsp |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 10:22 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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[quote]And if Mommy and Daddy had done a good job teaching their kids about finances.. NOT waiting until they are 22 and out on their own (Susan), they would know enough and be scared enough of credit cards to turn them down flat. [/quote]
I agree with you completely - I used my parents young, was taught never buy what you can't afford and can't pay that month off and I've never been in debt or ever owed a balance on my credit cards. That comes from the values parents teach very early on about money, budgeting and saving. At 23, the first thing I did per my parent's coaching with my first pay check post graduate school was open a Roth Ira - not go blow it as that was the expectation in our family.
| rocketgirl |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/02/07 10:23 PM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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[quote] I've already promised my children that I will hunt them down and slap them silly if they apply for ANYTHING before they have livable wages.[/quote]
LOL - maybe this is what your dad should have said to you! I plan on making my kids so terrified of what will happen if you have a credit card, they will run screaming from the "hottie with a clipboard"!
| Rebecca5 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/03/07 07:47 AM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Actually, I had more money in the bank than he did, and could well afford the payments. That wasn't the point. It's that they apply for the cards because the offer is so appealing, and suddenly forget everything they've ever been taught. It's not always that their parents are such poor money managers, or live beyond their means.
| Susanf31 |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 05/03/07 09:23 AM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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They learn what they see... since Mommy and Daddy have all these things, the kids think they should also.
My grandmother would have rather starved than put a thing on a credit card.
++++++++
I agree with Rocket. I don't think it's so much what we are GIVEN, but how we are raised to view money. For example, I was "given" alot, but my car was a CLUNKER. My dad doesn't believe in having nice, expensive cars. He always said "a car is transportation. The best car is a paid-for car that runs!"
I never went for the big, expensive car, even when I could easily afford it.
My parents preached the importance of having good credit. I've never paid a bill late in my adult life. Never!
It has nothing to do with what I was "given." It's all about what I was taught...how to view money, credit, and "things."
| KsProblem |
| (journeyman) |
| 05/04/07 10:11 AM |
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Re: When should our kids leave home?
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Well my opinion is that if the child/children is in school or college then yes why not allow them to live at home! Isnt schooling the most important thing for our children i think so but thats my opinion. If the child follows the rules of YOUR HOME then i would let them stay. My hubby has 3 kids from prev marriage. His son lived with us for awhile and never followed 1 rule. and the only rule he had to follow was take the dirty dishes and garbage out of his room and put garbage in trash not on floor. Well he cdnt even do that DAD had to clean his room (i think he is just pathetic to clean his sons room) mind you his son was 19 just turned 20. lol no college no job wdnt do anything but sit on internet and we wd fight cause my kids had to help but his didnt! this is still an issue but long story. I will post my own for help as well lol. But let them stay as long as they follow your rules!