Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/18/11 12:45 PM
OT - passing resemblance or not?

snopes.com/rumors/photos/pepsican.asp

Passing resemblance or not?


Gecko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/18/11 03:53 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Not.

LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/18/11 08:35 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Not.

ssmom79
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/11 07:52 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

ditto the not.

LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/11 08:20 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

If you research it online, there's photos that show it's likely a Dubai skyline being depicted.

I personally think it's unfortunate that people have to blow up/perpetuate nonsense like this.

As I said to someone last night.. even if it WERE intentionally a reference to 9/11, it's a can in that country. Doesn't matter what company makes the can. I'm sure we depict stuff that "insults" people in other parts of the world all.the.time. Whatever.

Here's the irony. So, we say it's insulting. Okay. But we were over there getting rid of oppressive/dangerous leadership. What do we represent? Freedoms. What do we do when we don't like what someone else does that we PERCEIVE to be something offensive (and may not even BE offensive)? We look to OPPRESS it. Totally ironic. Soooo you can be free and blah blah blah AS LONG AS it doesn't piss us off. THEN, watch out, cuz we're gonna try and suppress it. Hysterical really when you think about it.

Here's a thought. They're coming out of how many years of war? Perhaps the image is about their GROWTH. Their HEALTH. Their REBUILDING as a country. How about that? Maybe it represents the strength of their cities, of industry, whatever. Maybe it's just a positive message for them. And maybe? Just maybe? The entire planet doesn't revolve around one event, that happened on day, here. Here's a newsflash, the world doesn't revolve around U.S.


annieo
(veteran)
12/19/11 05:27 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

except that the cans were given to our soldiers - I'm sorry I don't buy that that was an accident - our soldiers are there because of that one day 10 years ago.....

If they want to make those cans and circulate them in their country GREAT more power to them but I do not believe for one minute that they did not realize those images would be given to the very men (celebration of their freedom or not) who have lost their lives giving them that freedom.

At the very least - VERY poor taste indeed...


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/11 05:36 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

So when someone GIVES you something you have the right to be offended and make them change it? Ever near of "beggers can't be choosers"?

annieo
(veteran)
12/19/11 06:10 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I highly doubt it was "given" to them I'm going assume (I know bad bad) the sodas were probably paid for....


I didn't say they should change it - it was in poor taste for our service men to have those soda cans.


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/11 07:44 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"So when someone GIVES you something you have the right to be offended and make them change it? Ever near of "beggers can't be choosers"? "

Beggars can't be choosers, awesome choice of words there, considering you're talking about our military... on the bright side, here's a newsflash, Pepsi "got it"... according to a statement, they immediately stopped production of the can when it was brought to their attention and they changed the design... and issued an apology. I guess it mattered to Pepsi...


Loretta
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/19/11 07:51 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I think it's enough of a resemblance. I'm glad Pepsi changed it. I love my Diet Pepsi, I would have hated to give it up. (:

I lived in the Middle East, the logos on Pepsi was always the same as it was in the USA, of course that was many years ago.


annieo
(veteran)
12/19/11 08:07 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I glad they are changing it - I may be misinformed but I thought it was only the cans in the East and they would not be here in America - even so I am glad they are changing it as whether it is the NY skyline or a Dubai skyline as someone suggested - the resemblance is too close and with the plane up above as well - I don't know just a poor choice.

ssmom79
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 07:47 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

The people spoke and a company made a decision. No need to even involve the government.

LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 09:05 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

General reply..


I think it's unfortunate/inappropriate for Pepsi to change it. So basically so much for the "freedoms" our soldiers fought for over there. One group of people just bullied another into changing something because it (likely unjustifiably) offended them.

Sad, sad commentary on the hypocrisy of this country. Seriously. We've become a total and complete joke. And it's pathetic. We are sooooo far from what this country was founded on, it's not funny anymore, it's just SAD.

Congratulations to those who lobbied for the change... when YOUR freedoms someday are lost? Remember things like this and then you'll know how you came to lose yours. (shakes head in disbelief)


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 09:14 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"General reply..


I think it's unfortunate/inappropriate for Pepsi to change it. So basically so much for the "freedoms" our soldiers fought for over there. One group of people just bullied another into changing something because it (likely unjustifiably) offended them.

Sad, sad commentary on the hypocrisy of this country. Seriously. We've become a total and complete joke. And it's pathetic. We are sooooo far from what this country was founded on, it's not funny anymore, it's just SAD.

Congratulations to those who lobbied for the change... when YOUR freedoms someday are lost? Remember things like this and then you'll know how you came to lose yours. (shakes head in disbelief) "

Did you read up on the story before drawing this conclusion?


LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 09:20 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Are you playing one of your little passive aggressive Q&A games again Sherron? Tsk Tsk.

ETA: Do you have a specific question or concern about my opinion? Try asking THAT, rather than the passive aggressive "did you read....?" bullshyt you always pull. ASK THE QUESTION. You have a problem with the opinion, then SAY SO. Don't pull this "did you read?" crap and try to back circle and meander around. Grow some balls lady! Say what you wanna say, be DIRECT. Good grief. EVERYONE knows you do it, it's annoying as shyt and until you ask a direct question? Not answering you. Not playing your stupid game.


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 09:38 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"Are you playing one of your little passive aggressive Q&A games again Sherron? Tsk Tsk.

ETA: Do you have a specific question or concern about my opinion? Try asking THAT, rather than the passive aggressive "did you read....?" bullshyt you always pull. ASK THE QUESTION. You have a problem with the opinion, then SAY SO. Don't pull this "did you read?" crap and try to back circle and meander around. Grow some balls lady! Say what you wanna say, be DIRECT. Good grief. EVERYONE knows you do it, it's annoying as shyt and until you ask a direct question? Not answering you. Not playing your stupid game. "

I'm sorry you feel this way... I'm not sure how much more specific you would like me to be. Your post indicates a lack of understanding. If you haven't kept up with the story, that could explain why... I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and ask. No evil plot...


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 09:58 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]So when someone GIVES you something you have the right to be offended and make them change it? Ever near of "beggers can't be choosers"? [/quote]

Who is begging?

We never got anything for free in Saudi or in UAE when I was deployed-granted it was mid 1990's. We paid for our sodas there like we would here. Now I believe we had contracts with Pepsi and Holiday Inn (for food catering) but we paid for canned soda.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:06 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Pepsi is money driven. They don't want to piss off the consumer. They also have the freedom to change or not change the design on the can. That has nothing to do with "freedom" and everything to do with money.

It is not smart when a country is at war to send the troops in the middle east a can with any sort of resemblence to 9-11, the skyline eehhh maybe but to add the airplane...why would any executive OK that?

I don't see it any different that the problem Coke is having this Christmas with the white soda cans. Consumers have called and complained that the "taste is different". Coke listened. Has their freedom been opressed?


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:07 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"the resemblance is too close and with the plane up above as well - I don't know just a poor choice."

Damn, its been TEN YEARS and people are still up in arms if you show a PICTURE of a plane and a skyscraper together on a soda can?!?

Do you know the difference between 9/11 and a COW?

You can't MILK a cow for ten years.

We were attacked, it happened, its OVER.


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:09 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"It is not smart when a country is at war to send the troops in the middle east a can with any sort of resemblence to 9-11, the skyline eehhh maybe but to add the airplane...why would any executive OK that?"

Cause in REALITY, plane still fly over CITIES all over the world.


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:09 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"ETA: Do you have a specific question or concern about my opinion? "

What freedoms are our soldiers fighting over there for, and when did that change from the war on terror?

What is a justifiable offense, is it the possible one where you never admit you offended anyone while apologizing for it, as in "IF" I offended you?

How are the ones who object to this any different than the protestor who speaks their mind about the 1%? Somehow the two are different, or do you just like their ideas more. When the OWS speak about socialism, redistribution of others' wealth, they are the person of the year, when a group protests a depiction on a soda can, they are just lowlifes.

Exactly what freedoms were lost when the population protests and a private company responds? The only entity that can take your freedoms is the government, and they were not involved in this.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:13 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]"It is not smart when a country is at war to send the troops in the middle east a can with any sort of resemblence to 9-11, the skyline eehhh maybe but to add the airplane...why would any executive OK that?"

Cause in REALITY, plane still fly over CITIES all over the world. [/quote]

Yes because a skyline, with skyscrapers, and an airplane flying over it is soooooo common on soda cans. Uh huh.


ssmom79
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:15 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Had the government of the US made a call to Pepsi and said change it or else, I would think that would be a huge violation. But to have consumers use their voices to make a change, well that is the way it should work.

Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:19 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

It's over?

It's not over for the people that have lost spouses and for the children that lost parents..and for the parents that lost children.

I have a friend whose husband died in the beginning of the war leaving her and her 5 children (two were 6 month old twins)devastated. I'll go ahead and give her your advice.
"It's over, we were attacked, you can't continue to milk this cow. Sorry your husband died! Get over it!!"

No, I have sense, I wouldn't say that.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:19 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]Had the government of the US made a call to Pepsi and said change it or else, I would think that would be a huge violation. But to have consumers use their voices to make a change, well that is the way it should work. [/quote]

Exactly. Free enterprise. Consumer behavior.

I am actually going to use this case for my class next semester. This site is good for something!!


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:29 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

No one said get over the ATTACK, but DAMN, to be EMOTIONALLY upset when you see a RANDOM skyline with a RANDOM airplane on a CAN of SODA? Yeah, GET OVER IT, or GET SOME COUNSELING.

We were attacked at pearl harbor, do we get upset when we see a plane over a BOAT or a plane over an ISLAND? Many of our troops were killed by road side IED's, do we get upset when we see a CAR on a ROAD?


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:33 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"No one said get over the ATTACK, but DAMN, to be EMOTIONALLY upset when you see a RANDOM skyline with a RANDOM airplane on a CAN of SODA? Yeah, GET OVER IT, or GET SOME COUNSELING.

We were attacked at pearl harbor, do we get upset when we see a plane over a BOAT or a plane over an ISLAND? Many of our troops were killed by road side IED's, do we get upset when we see a CAR on a ROAD? "

Maybe you should get over people not getting over it. :)


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:34 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Cute, lets not discuss the TOPIC< lets go off on a random tangent brought about by Sherron and her little quips designed to take away from the facts of the subject matter. Tee hee hee...

Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 10:45 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"Cute, lets not discuss the TOPIC< lets go off on a random tangent brought about by Sherron and her little quips designed to take away from the facts of the subject matter. Tee hee hee... "

What is there to discuss, many are still feeling the effects of 9/11 today... you know, those troops you mentioned, who were and, fyi, continue to be killed by IEDs... you want to deny people the right to be upset about that, well, ya know what... people are upset about it... so... get over it. Or go get some counseling...


annieo
(veteran)
12/20/11 10:47 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I am not EMOTIONALLY upset by the picture - I just think it is in poor taste....

As far a getting over 9/11 - well those who were personally involved by the death of a loved one that day will probably take a few more years....

AND yeah I am well aware of what a COW is kind of like beating a dead horse - right??? I do not see what happened a day 10 years ago as a cow or a horse but you are free to have your opinion that everyone should just "get over it"


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 11:39 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

See, you HAVE to do that, becuse you cannot defend your position. You HAVE to shift what I said into I am telling people to "get over" the attack, which I not only DIDN'T say, I SPECIFICALLY said that was NOT what I was saying.

Let me try something simpler, though you will probably not "get" this either. I see NOTHING wrong with a parent who lost a child being upset about seeing the child's grave stone. I would find it odd that they would get upset about seeing ANY gravestone. Get it? Nothing wrong with still being emotionally effected by the attack. But to get upset, or even think ANY picture of ANY plane near ANY building is in poor taste is CRAZY and completely unreasonable.

"I do not see what happened a day 10 years ago as a cow or a horse but you are free to have your opinion that everyone should just "get over it"

The people at the 9/11 Memorial, and MANY MANY people have been milking the CRAP out of 9/11 from the moment it occured.


LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 11:55 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]The people at the 9/11 Memorial, and MANY MANY people have been milking the CRAP out of 9/11 from the moment it occured. [/quote]

----------->> YUP YUP YUP YUP YUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I really REALLY wish people would stop aligning the war in Iraq with 9/11!!!!!!! The two have NOTHING to do with each other!!!


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 12:05 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

You are correct. The war in Iraq was about a repeated failure to follow UN resolutions regarding WMD's and UN inspectors over a 15 year period.

googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 12:15 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I'm sure the American beverage company and South African ad agency are in cahoots to denegrate America .

Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 12:57 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"And I really REALLY wish people would stop aligning the war in Iraq with 9/11!!!!!!! The two have NOTHING to do with each other!!!"

And I really REALLY wish people would start educating themselves and express more informed opinions... you can start with HJ Res 114.


LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:00 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]"And I really REALLY wish people would stop aligning the war in Iraq with 9/11!!!!!!! The two have NOTHING to do with each other!!!"

And I really REALLY wish people would start educating themselves and express more informed opinions... you can start with HJ Res 114. [/quote]

------------>> See Gr8's response above... I will simply say "ditto".


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:08 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"------------>> See Gr8's response above... I will simply say "ditto". "

HJ Res 114... ditto'ing a post that says you are correct doesn't make it so.


LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:11 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

And we already KNOW the government lied about WMD sooooo, your point dear? You believe everything the government tells you? You're from Germany right? You believe what the naz'is told their people too? Puh-leeze.

Invading Iraq (yet AGAIN) had about as much to do with 9/11 as I have to do with discovering the sun.


elliesmom
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:14 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I would take it a step further and point out that AL Qaeda and its leader Osama rose to popularity because of the constant presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, the holy land of Islam. Why were they present? Because we had to maintain a constant air presence in Iraq to keep that psycho from gassing his own people.

Legally - saddam's failure to live up to his agreement under the cease fire was the grounds for the war (which was in part regarding WMDs, but by no means all). I think I read (forgive me it was a while back) that there were 47 terms under that cease fire agreement that he had failed to live up to and 3 had to do with WMDs.

That said - I was not a fan of the war in Iraq. I thought that we waited this long - why not wait until we made significant strides in Afghanistan? Is the military getting too much rest? Have a necessary air campaign whenever he gets too rowdy, but not commit to anything until we can focus on it exclusively.


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:17 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

You are correct. The war in Iraq was about a repeated failure to follow UN resolutions regarding WMD's and UN inspectors over a 15 year period.

>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't pass the smell test . Bush administration officials INCLUDING GW & Cheney linked 9/11 to Iraq . . You cannot rewrite history because it's inconveniant .


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:22 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"And we already KNOW the government lied about WMD sooooo, your point dear? You believe everything the government tells you? You're from Germany right? You believe what the naz'is told their people too? Puh-leeze.

Invading Iraq (yet AGAIN) had about as much to do with 9/11 as I have to do with discovering the sun. "

You're a little short on history here...

Btw, I think you missed these earlier...

What freedoms are our soldiers fighting over there for, and when did that change from the war on terror?

What is a justifiable offense, is it the possible one where you never admit you offended anyone while apologizing for it, as in "IF" I offended you?

How are the ones who object to this any different than the protestor who speaks their mind about the 1%? Somehow the two are different, or do you just like their ideas more. When the OWS speak about socialism, redistribution of others' wealth, they are the person of the year, when a group protests a depiction on a soda can, they are just lowlifes.

Exactly what freedoms were lost when the population protests and a private company responds? The only entity that can take your freedoms is the government, and they were not involved in this.


LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:26 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]You are correct. The war in Iraq was about a repeated failure to follow UN resolutions regarding WMD's and UN inspectors over a 15 year period.

>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't pass the smell test . Bush administration officials INCLUDING GW & Cheney linked 9/11 to Iraq . . You cannot rewrite history because it's inconveniant . [/quote]

And we know they lied or misrepresented at least SOME stuff.

Look, they wanted a "target" after 9/11. Afghanistan was small potatoes but IRAQ (put it in big sparkly neon lights) well THAT would be the motherlode.

It's a joke, always was a joke and it's about politics and making a point. But by no means was Iraq about 9/11, specifically. Afghanistan? Yes. Iraq? No.


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:34 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

But by no means was Iraq about 9/11

>>>>>>>> Sorry , that's not what GW said .


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:53 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote][quote]The people at the 9/11 Memorial, and MANY MANY people have been milking the CRAP out of 9/11 from the moment it occured. [/quote]

----------->> YUP YUP YUP YUP YUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I really REALLY wish people would stop aligning the war in Iraq with 9/11!!!!!!! The two have NOTHING to do with each other!!! [/quote]

Where did anyone say anything about the war in Iraq?

I would say that 9-11 was a catalyst for it though.


Gecko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:53 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

except that the cans were given to our soldiers - I'm sorry I don't buy that that was an accident - our soldiers are there because of that one day 10 years ago.....

---> First of all, the product was available to many markets, NOT just to U.S. troops.

---> Second...our involvement IN Iraq started LONG before 9/11...you might remember a little war called "Desert Storm"?

If they want to make those cans and circulate them in their country GREAT more power to them but I do not believe for one minute that they did not realize those images would be given to the very men who have lost their lives giving them that freedom.

---> Maybe I'm missing something here, but as far as I know, NO dead soldiers saw the images...I mean...they are dead, they can't see...so how can THEY be offended by them.

---> I think that ANYONE having a fit over the cans, needs to take a close look at themselves because ya'll have some SERIOUS issues.


Gecko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:58 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Where did anyone say anything about the war in Iraq?

---> LB, the GD and then on from there.

I would say that 9-11 was a catalyst for it though.

---> No, the issues with Iraq started long before 9/11 with a little war called 'Desert Storm'.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 01:59 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

---> Second...our involvement IN Iraq started LONG before 9/11...you might remember a little war called "Desert Storm"?

*************

Our involvement in Iraq during Desert Storm lasted what? 2 weeks? Entirely too short of a time period. They should have gotten rid of Saddam when they had the chance. Secondly, we had no presence in the country of Iraq since that time until March of 2003.


annieo
(veteran)
12/20/11 02:19 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

obviously I did not mean the DEAD soldiers got the cans - really - do you think that is what I meant?

AGAIN I am not upset, emotional of whatever about the cans I think it was IN POOR TASTE!


annieo
(veteran)
12/20/11 02:27 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

quote/See, you HAVE to do that, becuse you cannot defend your position. You HAVE to shift what I said into I am telling people to "get over" the attack, which I not only DIDN'T say, I SPECIFICALLY said that was NOT what I was saying./quote

Defend WHAT exactly - I said I thought it was in poor taste...

I do agree that there has been a lot of money made buy the sales of 9/11 memorial items and that there has been a lot of attention paid to the tragedy but thinking that people should just "get over it" is (to me) not ok - you think is.

Carry on ;)


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 02:29 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"---> Maybe I'm missing something here, but as far as I know, NO dead soldiers saw the images...I mean...they are dead, they can't see...so how can THEY be offended by them."

"Maybe" you're missing something? Besides some common sense, how about enough respect to not use dead soldiers in an attempt to make a point.


LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 02:47 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]But by no means was Iraq about 9/11

>>>>>>>> Sorry , that's not what GW said . [/quote]

GW is a fvcking moron.


Gecko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 05:09 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Our involvement in Iraq during Desert Storm lasted what? 2 weeks? Entirely too short of a time period.

---> The first Gulf War went from August 1990 – February 1991. Most people refer to entire thing as Desert Storm, even though the liberation of Kuwait (aka Operation Desert Storm) took place January 17, 1991 to February 28 of the same year.

They should have gotten rid of Saddam when they had the chance.

---> I totally agree.

Secondly, we had no presence in the country of Iraq since that time until March of 2003.

---> That's not quite true. While we withdrew our military forces, we didn't withdrawal our operatives...hence Operations Desert Thunder and Operations Desert Fox in November and December '98. Oh...and there was that Tomahawk cruise missiles attack of the Zaafaraniya Nuclear Fabrication and Industrial Complex in the Baghdad in '93.

---> There was already enough cause for concern to justify a Second Gulf War (aka Operation Iraqi Freedom), but some people can't leave well enough alone and had to 'sex up' (as the Brits put it) the WMD reports. The result...bad public relations juju.


Gecko
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 05:16 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"Maybe" you're missing something? Besides some common sense, how about enough respect to not use dead soldiers in an attempt to make a point.

---> You really need to pour a glass of wine and chill. Then go back and read...as in read what Annio wrote...and then you will understand my response, AND that I was being slightly facecious given the uproar over this issue.

---> But just in case, "they did not realize those images would be given to the very men who have lost their lives giving them that freedom."


Sherron
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 05:31 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

"---> You really need to pour a glass of wine and chill. Then go back and read...as in read what Annio wrote...and then you will understand my response, AND that I was being slightly facecious given the uproar over this issue."

I read what annieo wrote, and I'm even gonna give you credit and say that you understood what she meant... I fail to see the humor in your post, dead soldiers just aren't all that funny to me. For you to use those soldiers in an attempt to be facetious... fail...


RJ1
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/20/11 07:24 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[censored]://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/12/anger-builds-over-tower-design-resembling-911-explosion/

What about this one?


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 07:16 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Nobody lied about WMD's. Saddam wanted everyone to THINK he had them, and all of the intel SAID he had them. Those that voted for it had access to ALL the SAME intel, and it ALL indicated that he had WMD's and he was looking for access to more.

LexieBelle
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 09:34 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

I would tend to disagree with that. I think much of what "intel" there was was either exaggerated or a downright lie. This country had a game plan in mind to take out Hussein and it was gonna get done, by hook or by crook. Which is exactly what happened.

gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 09:58 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Let me et you in on a "secret" that is becoming clearer and clearer as information becomes freer and freer. "Intel" and intelligence reports and intelligence officers are really just GUESSING. Yes, they are EDUCATED guesses, but still just GUESSES. They look at the raw data, and make a determination. They don't usually turn over the raw data to the higher up, however, in THIS case, the reports DID contain the raw data, and the raw data indicated hed had WMD's. I worked in the intel field for quite a while, and the data I saw (not when I worked in the field, but what has been released so far) gave an indicator that he was setting up production facilities.

So if the PROFESSIONALS think he was doing it, and the raw data from THREE different intel agencies (the US, France and [censored]) indicated he was doing it, then that is what you go for.

Interestingly enough, if the weatherman get tomorrows weather wrong, no one calls him a liar. Intel is exactly the same.


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 10:21 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

So if the PROFESSIONALS think he was doing it, and the raw data from THREE different intel agencies (the US, France and [censored]) indicated he was doing it, then that is what you go for.

>>>>>>>>>> A lie .


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 10:23 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

">>>>>>>>>> A lie ."

Prove it.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 10:35 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

[quote]I would tend to disagree with that. I think much of what "intel" there was was either exaggerated or a downright lie. This country had a game plan in mind to take out Hussein and it was gonna get done, by hook or by crook. Which is exactly what happened. [/quote]

When Saddam was interrogated after his capture about WMD he stated that he wanted the world to think he had them out of fear of an Iranian invasion. Had he cooperated, and followed UN regulations, I don't think we would have been in Iraq. We called his bluff, and unfortunately a nearly 9 year war ensued.


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 10:52 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Prove it.

>>>>>>>>>> Don't have to HISTORY proves you wrong .

On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam’s inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.

Nor was the intelligence included in the National Intelligence Estimate of October 2002, which stated categorically that Iraq possessed WMD. No one in Congress was aware of the secret intelligence that Saddam had no WMD as the House of Representatives and the Senate voted, a week after the submission of the NIE, on the Authorization for Use of Military Force in Iraq. The information, moreover, was not circulated within the CIA among those agents involved in operations to prove whether Saddam had WMD.



On April 23, 2006, CBS’s “60 Minutes” interviewed Tyler Drumheller, the former CIA chief of clandestine operations for Europe, who disclosed that the agency had received documentary intelligence from Naji Sabri, Saddam’s foreign minister, that Saddam did not have WMD. “We continued to validate him the whole way through,” said Drumheller. “The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.”

Now two former senior CIA officers have confirmed Drumheller’s account to me and provided the background to the story of how the information that might have stopped the invasion of Iraq was twisted in order to justify it. They described what Tenet said to Bush about the lack of WMD, and how Bush responded, and noted that Tenet never shared Sabri’s intelligence with then Secretary of State Colin Powell. According to the former officers, the intelligence was also never shared with the senior military planning the invasion, which required U.S. soldiers to receive medical shots against the ill effects of WMD and to wear protective uniforms in the desert.

Instead, said the former officials, the information was distorted in a report written to fit the preconception that Saddam did have WMD programs. That false and restructured report was passed to Richard Dearlove, chief of the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6), who briefed Prime Minister Tony Blair on it as validation of the cause for war.

Secretary of State Powell, in preparation for his presentation of evidence of Saddam’s WMD to the United Nations Security Council on Feb. 5, 2003, spent days at CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., and had Tenet sit directly behind him as a sign of credibility. But Tenet, according to the sources, never told Powell about existing intelligence that there were no WMD, and Powell’s speech was later revealed to be a series of falsehoods.

Both the French intelligence service and the CIA paid Sabri hundreds of thousands of dollars (at least $200,000 in the case of the CIA) to give them documents on Saddam’s WMD programs. “The information detailed that Saddam may have wished to have a program, that his engineers had told him they could build a nuclear weapon within two years if they had fissile material, which they didn’t, and that they had no chemical or biological weapons,” one of the former CIA officers told me.

On the eve of Sabri’s appearance at the United Nations in September 2002 to present Saddam’s case, the officer in charge of this operation met in New York with a “cutout” who had debriefed Sabri for the CIA. Then the officer flew to Washington, where he met with CIA deputy director John McLaughlin, who was “excited” about the report. Nonetheless, McLaughlin expressed his reservations. He said that Sabri’s information was at odds with “our best source.” That source was code-named “Curveball,” later exposed as a fabricator, con man and former Iraqi taxi driver posing as a chemical engineer.

The next day, Sept. 18, Tenet briefed Bush on Sabri. “Tenet told me he briefed the president personally,” said one of the former CIA officers. According to Tenet, Bush’s response was to call the information “the same old thing.” Bush insisted it was simply what Saddam wanted him to think. “The president had no interest in the intelligence,” said the CIA officer. The other officer said, “Bush didn’t give a [censored] about the intelligence. He had his mind made up.”

But the CIA officers working on the Sabri case kept collecting information. “We checked on everything he told us.” French intelligence eavesdropped on his telephone conversations and shared them with the CIA. These taps “validated” Sabri’s claims, according to one of the CIA officers. The officers brought this material to the attention of the newly formed Iraqi Operations Group within the CIA. But those in charge of the IOG were on a mission to prove that Saddam did have WMD and would not give credit to anything that came from the French. “They kept saying the French were trying to undermine the war,” said one of the CIA officers.

The officers continued to insist on the significance of Sabri’s information, but one of Tenet’s deputies told them, “You haven’t figured this out yet. This isn’t about intelligence. It’s about regime change.”

The CIA officers on the case awaited the report they had submitted on Sabri to be circulated back to them, but they never received it. They learned later that a new report had been written. “It was written by someone in the agency, but unclear who or where, it was so tightly controlled. They knew what would please the White House. They knew what the king wanted,” one of the officers told me.

That report contained a false preamble stating that Saddam was “aggressively and covertly developing” nuclear weapons and that he already possessed chemical and biological weapons. “Totally out of whack,” said one of the CIA officers. “The first [para]graph of an intelligence report is the most important and most read and colors the rest of the report.” He pointed out that the case officer who wrote the initial report had not written the preamble and the new memo. “That’s not what the original memo said.”

The report with the misleading introduction was given to Dearlove of MI6, who briefed the prime minister. “They were given a scaled-down version of the report,” said one of the CIA officers. “It was a summary given for liaison, with the sourcing taken out. They showed the British the statement Saddam was pursuing an aggressive program, and rewrote the report to attempt to support that statement. It was insidious. Blair bought it.” “Blair was duped,” said the other CIA officer. “He was shown the altered report.”

The information provided by Sabri was considered so sensitive that it was never shown to those who assembled the NIE on Iraqi WMD. Later revealed to be utterly wrong, the NIE read: “We judge that Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade.”

In the congressional debate over the Authorization for the Use of Military Force, even those voting against it gave credence to the notion that Saddam possessed WMD. Even a leading opponent such as Sen. Bob Graham, then the Democratic chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who had instigated the production of the NIE, declared in his floor speech on Oct. 12, 2002, “Saddam Hussein’s regime has chemical and biological weapons and is trying to get nuclear capacity.” Not a single senator contested otherwise. None of them had an inkling of the Sabri intelligence.

The CIA officers assigned to Sabri still argued within the agency that his information must be taken seriously, but instead the administration preferred to rely on Curveball. Drumheller learned from the German intelligence service that held Curveball that it considered him and his claims about WMD to be highly unreliable. But the CIA’s Weapons Intelligence, Nonproliferation, and Arms Control Center (WINPAC) insisted that Curveball was credible because what he said was supposedly congruent with available public information.

For two months, Drumheller fought against the use of Curveball, raising the red flag that he was likely a fraud, as he turned out to be. “Oh, my! I hope that’s not true,” said Deputy Director McLaughlin, according to Drumheller’s book “On the Brink,” published in 2006. When Curveball’s information was put into Bush’s Jan. 28, 2003, State of the Union address, McLaughlin and Tenet allowed it to pass into the speech. “From three Iraqi defectors,” Bush declared, “we know that Iraq, in the late 1990s, had several mobile biological weapons labs … Saddam Hussein has not disclosed these facilities. He’s given no evidence that he has destroyed them.” In fact, there was only one Iraqi source — Curveball — and there were no labs.

When the mobile weapons labs were inserted into the draft of Powell’s United Nations speech, Drumheller strongly objected again and believed that the error had been removed. He was shocked watching Powell’s speech. “We have firsthand descriptions of biological weapons factories on wheels and on rails,” Powell announced. Without the reference to the mobile weapons labs, there was no image of a threat.

Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, Powell’s chief of staff, and Powell himself later lamented that they had not been warned about Curveball. And McLaughlin told the Washington Post in 2006, “If someone had made these doubts clear to me, I would not have permitted the reporting to be used in Secretary Powell’s speech.” But, in fact, Drumheller’s caution was ignored.

As war appeared imminent, the CIA officers on the Sabri case tried to arrange his defection in order to demonstrate that he stood by his information. But he would not leave without bringing out his entire family. “He dithered,” said one former CIA officer. And the war came before his escape could be handled.

Tellingly, Sabri’s picture was never put on the deck of playing cards of former Saddam officials to be hunted down, a tacit acknowledgment of his covert relationship with the CIA. Today, Sabri lives in Qatar.

In 2005, the Silberman-Robb commission investigating intelligence in the Iraq war failed to interview the case officer directly involved with Sabri; instead its report blamed the entire WMD fiasco on “groupthink” at the CIA. “They didn’t want to trace this back to the White House,” said the officer.

On Feb. 5, 2004, Tenet delivered a speech at Georgetown University that alluded to Sabri and defended his position on the existence of WMD, which, even then, he contended would still be found. “Several sensitive reports crossed my desk from two sources characterized by our foreign partners as established and reliable,” he said. “The first from a source who had direct access to Saddam and his inner circle” — Naji Sabri — “said Iraq was not in the possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon.”

Then Tenet claimed with assurance, “The same source said that Iraq was stockpiling chemical weapons.” He explained that this intelligence had been central to his belief in the reason for war. “As this information and other sensitive information came across my desk, it solidified and reinforced the judgments that we had reached in my own view of the danger posed by Saddam Hussein and I conveyed this view to our nation’s leaders.” (Tenet doesn’t mention Sabri in his recently published memoir, “At the Center of the Storm.”)

But where were the WMD? “Now, I’m sure you’re all asking, ‘Why haven’t we found the weapons?’ I’ve told you the search must continue and it will be difficult.”

On Sept. 8, 2006, three Republican senators on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence — Orrin Hatch, Saxby Chambliss and Pat Roberts — signed a letter attempting to counter Drumheller’s revelation about Sabri on “60 Minutes”: “All of the information about this case so far indicates that the information from this source was that Iraq did have WMD programs.” The Republicans also quoted Tenet, who had testified before the committee in July 2006 that Drumheller had “mischaracterized” the intelligence. Still, Drumheller stuck to his guns, telling Reuters, “We have differing interpretations, and I think mine’s right.”

One of the former senior CIA officers told me that despite the certitude of the three Republican senators, the Senate committee never had the original memo on Sabri. “The committee never got that report,” he said. “The material was hidden or lost, and because it was a restricted case, a lot of it was done in hard copy. The whole thing was fogged up, like Curveball.”

While one Iraqi source told the CIA that there were no WMD, information that was true but distorted to prove the opposite, another Iraqi source was a fabricator whose lies were eagerly embraced. “The real tragedy is that they had a good source that they misused,” said one of the former CIA officers. “The fact is there was nothing there, no threat. But Bush wanted to hear what he wanted to hear.”


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 10:56 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

When Saddam was interrogated after his capture about WMD he stated that he wanted the world to think he had them out of fear of an Iranian invasion.

>>>>>>>>>>> We pay a few HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS a year for intelligence that can't tell when an EGOMANIACAL DICTATOR is LYING ?

Had he cooperated, and followed UN regulations, I don't think we would have been in Iraq.

>>>>>>>>>> Yeah , sure .

We called his bluff, and unfortunately a nearly 9 year war ensued.

>>>>>>>>>>> Remember that when we invade Iran .


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 10:59 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Dude why are you so angry? Good gawd, get a grip.

gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:06 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

">>>>>>>>>>> We pay a few HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS a year for intelligence that can't tell when an EGOMANIACAL DICTATOR is LYING ?"

But we SHOULD believe his foreign minister when he tells us Saddam DOESN'T have WMD's...got it. So, essentially, it comes down to WHO to believe, and the wrong call got made.

And keep in mind, the PRESCENCE of the material was the only thing that was wrong. Saddam WAS pursuing material, he WAS looking to have a nuke, all of that was TRUE, and WAS in violation of the UN mandates.


Miranda
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:07 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Saddam was the second biggest WMD in that region.

gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:10 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Well, there WAS the chemical rockets they found...but as gd will say in a minute, there was only a COUPLE of them, LOL.

googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:11 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

But we SHOULD believe his foreign minister when he tells us Saddam DOESN'T have WMD's...got it. So, essentially, it comes down to WHO to believe, and the wrong call got made.

>>>>>>>>> Why not , they believed a convicted sex offender who actually was lying .

So, essentially, it comes down to WHO to believe, and the wrong call got made.

>>>>>>>>>>> Not when the call was predetermined .

Saddam WAS pursuing material, he WAS looking to have a nuke, all of that was TRUE, and WAS in violation of the UN mandates.

>>>>>>>>>>> There's a difference between WANTING something and being able to do it .


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:17 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Well, there WAS the chemical rockets they found...but as gd will say in a minute, there was only a COUPLE of them, LOL.

>>>>>>>>>> Nonfunctional ones that had been BURIED for 10 years .


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:17 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

">>>>>>>>> Why not , they believed a convicted sex offender who actually was lying ."

So why would they think a guy who worked FOR Saddam would be telling the truth?

">>>>>>>>>>> Not when the call was predetermined ."

Whether he HAD them or not was only a PORTION of the UN mandate. He was still in violation for TRYING to get them.

">>>>>>>>>>> There's a difference between WANTING something and being able to do it ."

Yep, cause Saddam would NEVER EVER EVER be ABLE to get WMD's, right? I mean its not like he HAD them in the PAST and USED them, right? Oh, wait, what was that about the Kurds in 1988?


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:18 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

">>>>>>>>>> Nonfunctional ones that had been BURIED for 10 years ."

So he DID have SOME...just old ones...but isn't, mathematically, at least, "some" greater than "none"?


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:30 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

So why would they think a guy who worked FOR Saddam would be telling the truth?

>>>>>>>>> Because HE WAS . The OTHER guy was lying . They ever ask the guy to take a lie detector test ? Herman Cain's PI woulda been all over that . Hell MAURY could have done a better job .

Whether he HAD them or not was only a PORTION of the UN mandate. He was still in violation for TRYING to get them.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Trying to get what , imaginary yellowcake uranium ?

Yep, cause Saddam would NEVER EVER EVER be ABLE to get WMD's, right? I mean its not like he HAD them in the PAST and USED them, right? Oh, wait, what was that about the Kurds in 1988?

>>>>>>>>>>>> And North Korea ( who was ignored ) was building a nuke . Nice picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands from back then , cuz YA KNOW , he was OUR ALLY then .


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 11:31 AM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

So he DID have SOME...just old ones...but isn't, mathematically, at least, "some" greater than "none"?

>>>>>>>>>>> Imminent danger from nonfunctioning weapons . What was he gonna do , throw them as us ?


gr8Dad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 12:17 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

">>>>>>>>> Because HE WAS . The OTHER guy was lying . They ever ask the guy to take a lie detector test ? Herman Cain's PI woulda been all over that . Hell MAURY could have done a better job ."

Like I said, bad call, but reasonable, based on the evidence.

">>>>>>>>>>>> Trying to get what , imaginary yellowcake uranium ?"

Oh, so the guy that was telling the truth, Sabri, SAID that Saddam was trying to get WMD's...but we SHOULD have believed him on the subject of HAVING them, but NOT on the subject of getting them? Come on, pick a side and stick with it.

">>>>>>>>>>>> And North Korea ( who was ignored ) was building a nuke . Nice picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam shaking hands from back then , cuz YA KNOW , he was OUR ALLY then ."

No UN mandate about North Korea. And Bin Laden was our ally as well...times change.


googledad
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
12/21/11 01:23 PM
Re: OT - passing resemblance or not?

Like I said, bad call, but reasonable, based on the evidence.

>>>>>>>>>> A bad call ? It's criminal incompetance or BLATANT stupidity when it results in HUNDREDS BILLIONS of DOLLARS and 1000s of lives .

Oh, so the guy that was telling the truth, Sabri, SAID that Saddam was trying to get WMD's...but we SHOULD have believed him on the subject of HAVING them, but NOT on the subject of getting them? Come on, pick a side and stick with it.

>>>>>>>>>> He didn't say that , George Tenet DID .

Both the French intelligence service and the CIA paid Sabri hundreds of thousands of dollars (at least $200,000 in the case of the CIA) to give them documents on Saddam’s WMD programs. “The information detailed that Saddam may have wished to have a program, that his engineers had told him they could build a nuclear weapon within two years if they had fissile material, which they didn’t, and that they had no chemical or biological weapons,” one of the former CIA officers told me.

>>>>>>>>>> Want instead of can or did .

No UN mandate about North Korea.

>>>>>>>>> Nor was there one to invade Iraq . Probably why neither Bush nor Cheney will leave the US .


And Bin Laden was our ally as well...times change.

>>>>>>>>>>> Funny about those allies Republicans pick .



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