JustinP
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I was advised by my lawyer not to pay my soon to be ex with personal checks because her lawyer could take that bank information and use it to get a withholding order against me. Does this seem right?
So if I got a certified check or official check, it still has my account info. Should I go to the store and get a cashier's check?
Any ideas?
Thanks
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hanzblinx
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that's weird, you can open a new bank account online in 5 minutes or less. assuming you wanted to dodge a withholding order placed on your existing account. your lawyer must know something I don't.
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JustinP
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True, and I am not trying to dodge paying. It's just I want to be in control of my own payments and not having some lawyer dipping into my account via court order. And if getting my account information off my check is one way they can achieve this, I don't want to help them.
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elliesmom
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Personally I would open an account for the sole purpose of paying her. Deposit the amount to cover the check each month and nothing more. You want an account (not money orders) so you can prove what was paid, but your lawyer makes a good point.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Goodmom
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First of all, that's just paranoid.
Second, withholding orders typically go to the employer so that the support is withheld from your paycheck. These typically aren't granted for spousal support unless there is a child support order as well.
Third, if you are not behind, a judge isn't going to grant an order that states your ex can seize the amount owed from your account.
Fourth, if you are behind, a court will probably order you to provide your banking information.
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JustinP
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Goodmom are you referring to elliesmom as paranoid or me?
I am a month behind on support from a temporary order from 2 months ago that was based on our old marriage expenses, ie rent from our old place, not where she is living now, etc. It is 47% of my income and I hold almost all of the marital debt. But I digress.
She will start getting money today, I was just unsure which was the best form to use to pay her. I cannot contact her since she filed a cpo against me to get me out of the apartment, so I have to go through her lawyer. I just want to avoid getting the courts involved as much as possible.
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gr8Dad
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I would pay in PENNIES, unrolled, and make the lawyer give you a reciept.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Goodmom
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Reged: 06/17/07
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[quote]
I just want to avoid getting the courts involved as much as possible. [/quote]
I was referring to your attorney's advice not to give a personal check. For one thing, she can't get a withholding order without first going to court. Of which you have to be notified and given an opportunity to respond.
Don't want to go to court? Well, don't pay in pennies as is recommended by a certain poster. A judge may very well feel, along with you being a month late, that you are being vindictive and unreasonable and issue a wage withholding order.
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Goodmom
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[quote]I would pay in PENNIES, unrolled, and make the lawyer give you a reciept. [/quote]
That's one way of ending up in court. What you suggested is not only unreasonable, it is vindictive. And would not go well in a court.
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Sadie
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pennies are lega tender,and if he did pay in pennies, he would no longer be a month behind
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Buckeye
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From what I remember in a Business Law course, pennies are NOT legal tender. Maury can verify that one.
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Sadie
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Actually according to the Coinage Act of 1965 any and all US minted coins are legal tender in any amount
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Sherron
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"Actually according to the Coinage Act of 1965 any and all US minted coins are legal tender in any amount "
They are valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.
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Goodmom
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[quote]Actually according to the Coinage Act of 1965 any and all US minted coins are legal tender in any amount [/quote]
Go to this website: h ttp: / / w w w.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx
Pennies are legal tender. But that doesn't mean that a person has to accept it as payment. Much like the places I go to that refuse to accept anything higher than a $20.
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elliesmom
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I will disagree that it is paranoid.
You don't need a withholding order to get a sheriffs order to empty someones bank account. All you have to do is have a judgement against them and take it to be executed. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I know its not hard.
You won't know about it until suddenly your bank account is empty. People who know you well enough will execute on your payday and can leave you with nothing.
If you are really concerned that she will do this - you are probably better off opening a new account for yourself somewhere she doesn't know about and switch your banking there. Keep the old account that she does know about and use it solely for paying her. That way she won't know there is a new account to look for.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Sherron
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"I will disagree that it is paranoid.
You don't need a withholding order to get a sheriffs order to empty someones bank account. All you have to do is have a judgement against them and take it to be executed. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I know its not hard.
You won't know about it until suddenly your bank account is empty. People who know you well enough will execute on your payday and can leave you with nothing.
If you are really concerned that she will do this - you are probably better off opening a new account for yourself somewhere she doesn't know about and switch your banking there. Keep the old account that she does know about and use it solely for paying her. That way she won't know there is a new account to look for. "
Maybe he could just pay her what he owes, this way, people don't have to give him advice how he can best evade following a court order and how to hide accounts and money from a creditor.
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elliesmom
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Since he was planning to give her a check - I assume he IS paying her what he owes. But the last thing anyone needs when they have lost their job is to need to hire a lawyer to modify their alimony and then find their bank account cleaned out.
But I will give anyone advice even if they were avoiding alimony. Because I have a moral issue with any able bodied adult sucking money off of another just because they ustafuck in most situations.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Sadie
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I agree Ellies1
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JustinP
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LOL @ some of the comments.
@gr8Dad - Pennies, while legal tender, would only serve to anger her and her lawyer and she doesn't need more ammo to use against me.
@sherron - I just made a payment to her... I got behind because I had to pay my lawyer, pay rent on our old apt (where no one lives), put a deposit on a new one, move, pay the new rent, buy a whole lot basic household things and food, and get $500 in car repairs done. All in July. She got moved for free, has a free lawyer, and gets lots of free assistance. (She does not work) So it can be hard to come up with almost half your salary in a moment's notice, while trying to get everything taken care of..
@elliesmom - While its not all I owe, its a step towards it.
Well, I went ahead and got an official check from my bank and hand delivered it to her lawyer's office. Don't know if that is how I will do it in the future once the final amount is decided.
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JustinP
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oh, and I guess I will just roll the dice and hope that by trying to catch up she does not get a court order, and that somehow they don't dip into my account.
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Sherron
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JustinP... nothing personal... more a knee jerk response to the advice that was given. My ex owes thousands in arrears, child support, not alimony, if that makes a difference... the idea that some stranger online would give him advice on how to best evade paying and how to hide assets and accounts, based on 3 brief posts and on nothing more than a "moral objection" to the support, despite a court having ordered it... it just floored me.
As to your question... your lawyer is a professional, in your state, who you are paying to give you legal advice... what he said does not make sense to me and I would ask your lawyer to clarify . Personally, I don't understand how a court could order garnishment of an account, for the purpose of alimony, without being considerably behind, but laws can vary from state to state. I didn't catch where you are losing your job, as had been suggested... hope that isn't the case.
Elliesmom... the ustafucks started out as currentfucks in all situations... just sayin'.
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JustinP
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No biggie. Yeah sometimes the advice given on forums is...interesting. I play by the rules and if I get screwed, then I might have to do something. No, I am not losing my job.
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elliesmom
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Yes - but it makes sense to be paying someone WHILE they are performing a service for you.
My dad was married for 18 months WITH a prenup and spent THOUSANDS on a lawyer and 18 months of his life to get out without alimony. All because he makes big bucks and she failed to finish her final project to get her degree that the LAST husband's alimony was paying for. THAT is the kind of total BS that goes on in courts today. Btw his lawyer told him WITHOUT the prenup - he'd have paid a couple years alimony for sure. Ridiculous.
CS is absolutely a totally different beast. Pretty much owed to the other party no matter how you look at it.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Sherron
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"Yes - but it makes sense to be paying someone WHILE they are performing a service for you."
Yeah, okay... maybe that's the way it works in your marriage, but I didn't get paid for performing "services".
"My dad was married for 18 months WITH a prenup and spent THOUSANDS on a lawyer and 18 months of his life to get out without alimony. All because he makes big bucks and she failed to finish her final project to get her degree that the LAST husband's alimony was paying for. THAT is the kind of total BS that goes on in courts today. Btw his lawyer told him WITHOUT the prenup - he'd have paid a couple years alimony for sure. Ridiculous."
Your sm collected alimony before your dad? Yeah, bet no one say that coming.
"CS is absolutely a totally different beast. Pretty much owed to the other party no matter how you look at it. "
Owed... why... because a court ordered it...? What if someone morally objects to it?
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elliesmom
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Owed because there are zero legitimate reasons to not pay to support your kid.
There are nearly zero reasons a person should have to support another adult they ustafuck.
As to my exSM. I was not so much up in arms over her 1st alimony - she worked and put him through med school so she got her tuition for her masters degree paid too. That was supposed to happen while they were married but he bailed as soon as he finished his fellowship. That to me is a demonstrable contribution she made that he made good on (making half a mil a year). But she HATED him. Considering what he was providing her AND she didn't have to live with him anymore - I found that unsettling. And that feeling in my gut was dead on as it turns out. I don't get on board with "oh, you make less money than your spouse - here some extra money for the next 10 years." And that is almost reflexively done in some states. And spousal misconduct in most states does not preclude you from an award. You can cheat on, beat etc. your spouse but by golly you are still owed alimony if they make more money.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Sherron
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"There are nearly zero reasons a person should have to support another adult they ustafuck."
This isn't a moral decision to be made, but a legal one that already has been made. I get it, our personal experiences shape us, but you don't even know if the ex-wife in this case cheated on him or beat him… or put him through medical school. I find it unsettling a currentfuck would encourage anyone to violate a court order in any way, especially when it is a risk the other person will be taking, and not the currentfuck. It is never good advice to disobey a court order, whether it is SS or CS, based on your own moral grounds and negative personal experiences... there are legal remedies.
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elliesmom
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No one was encouraging him to violate his court order. Read carefully. He said he was paying. He was afraid if in the future he could not pay she could attach his bank account.
If he was refusing to pay (and has a job) a person can get garnishments etc. that (for CS anyway) are limited to 65% to leave the person with money for food. But for alimony apparently according to his lawyer - a person can get an order and empty your bank account. Helping someone protect themselves in the event they are unemployed - is hardly advising someone to violate an order.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Sherron
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"No one was encouraging him to violate his court order. Read carefully. He said he was paying. He was afraid if in the future he could not pay she could attach his bank account. "
Read carefully.
"It's just I want to be in control of my own payments and not having some lawyer dipping into my account via court order."
Nothing about being afraid, in the future, if he couldn't pay. He does not want an automated withdrawal now.
"If he was refusing to pay (and has a job) a person can get garnishments etc. that (for CS anyway) are limited to 65% to leave the person with money for food. But for alimony apparently according to his lawyer - a person can get an order and empty your bank account. Helping someone protect themselves in the event they are unemployed - is hardly advising someone to violate an order."
Not just "apparently according to his lawyer".
"I will disagree that it is paranoid.
You don't need a withholding order to get a sheriffs order to empty someones bank account. All you have to do is have a judgement against them and take it to be executed. I don't remember exactly how it works, but I know its not hard."
And if you read carefully...
"I am a month behind on support from a temporary order from 2 months ago that was based on our old marriage expenses, ie rent from our old place, not where she is living now, etc. It is 47% of my income and I hold almost all of the marital debt."
Looks to me like any withdrawal would be limited to the amount owed, 47% of his income, as long as he is current. I guess if he only deposits 47% of his income, that would mean "emptying the account", but that still leaves 53% of his income somewhere else. A judge will not order a withdrawal for money that isn't owed. Your advice to open a bank account she won't know to look for is telling him how to keep money instead of paying what he owes, as he is court ordered to do. I guess we can go round and round on semantics, but telling someone how to hide money so it can't be taken to pay a valid and court ordered debt really is encouraging that person to violate the court order.
I mean, you already said it anyway, why are you disagreeing now?
"But I will give anyone advice even if they were avoiding alimony. Because I have a moral issue with any able bodied adult sucking money off of another just because they ustafuck in most situations. "
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elliesmom
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It isn't limited to 47%. His alimony was temporarily set at 47% of his income ON TOP OF paying all the bills - not an uncommon thing to happen to men - and that is why he got a little behind. But as I said - he clearly indicated he was paying, intended pay, and came back with an explanation that he was getting caught up - just didn't want his entire paycheck taken.
And yes - I said I WOULD. Which doesn't mean that is what is happening though. I also would pay $50 for dinner, but that doesn't mean I paid the guy at Popeyes $50 for my dinner tonight.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Sadie
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Another idea would be to put money in a safety deposit box, that way there would be no way to attach it ( it could even be one of the fire safes that you keep in your house) that way noone would even know of its existance.
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Sherron
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"And yes - I said I WOULD. Which doesn't mean that is what is happening though."
So the disagreement here isn't that you would encourage anyone to violate a court order based on your own moral objections... only that you don't think you did here. Got it. We can agree to disagree on this one, maybe you just didn't write carefully because, hey, it is there... as to your "I said I WOULD"... I disagree with encouraging people to violate court orders, encouraging people to hide money instead of paying a court ordered debt... especially solely based on your own moral objections.
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english7
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Damn! I'm glad it's not me this time.
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JustinP
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Wow you are a lively bunch. Thanks for the advice. Not planning on hiding anything. Just don't want to give anyone free reign to take a large amount of money out of my account on their schedule...not against auto payments per se, as long as I get to choose the details.
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Sherron
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"Wow you are a lively bunch. Thanks for the advice. Not planning on hiding anything. Just don't want to give anyone free reign to take a large amount of money out of my account on their schedule...not against auto payments per se, as long as I get to choose the details. "
In that case, why not approach her lawyer and suggest auto payments? For some reason, your lawyer thinks that the other side will try to access your account, and you'd likely have more say in the matter if you initiated the conversation. Come up with more than one solution and ask for the one that would work best for you first. For example, if you get paid on the 1st and 15th, you could suggest a split payment on the 2nd and 16th. Make sure you address how it's handled if those days land on a weekend or bank holiday so you're not surprised by an attempt to withdraw earlier - I believe most if not all banks will hit you with a non sufficient funds charge if there isn't enough money to cover the scheduled transaction.
If you're concerned about screw ups, set up a throw away account just for the purpose of alimony payments and transfer the agreed upon amount the day before the withdrawal date. Since auto payments increase your commitment, there should be no reason for the other side to need to dip into any of your accounts unexpectedly, and if you're the one suggesting it, you will have more input than if you're not even part of the decision making process.
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Sherron
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"Damn! I'm glad it's not me this time. "
If that's a response to me and not just quick reply, is there anything I said that you disagree with, english?
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Goodmom
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Reged: 06/17/07
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[quote]If you're concerned about screw ups, set up a throw away account just for the purpose of alimony payments and transfer the agreed upon amount the day before the withdrawal date. [/quote]
As someone who does have to do ACH's (this is what a transfer is)where I work, the above may not work if the accounts are in separate banks (and, yes, I deal with this, as well). If they are in separate banks, it takes 2 banking days (not including holidays or week-ends) for ACH's to hit the other bank account. If it is an internal transfer between two accounts at the same bank, then a day should cover it.
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JustinP
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"In that case, why not approach her lawyer and suggest auto payments? For some reason, your lawyer thinks that the other side will try to access your account, and you'd likely have more say in the matter if you initiated the conversation. Come up with more than one solution and ask for the one that would work best for you first. For example, if you get paid on the 1st and 15th, you could suggest a split payment on the 2nd and 16th. Make sure you address how it's handled if those days land on a weekend or bank holiday so you're not surprised by an attempt to withdraw earlier - I believe most if not all banks will hit you with a non sufficient funds charge if there isn't enough money to cover the scheduled transaction. "
That's fine. I'll accept an auto-transfer if I can determine the dates. We need to get the final amount figured out so I can schedule all my other bills around it.
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hanzblinx
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"There are nearly zero reasons a person should have to support another adult they ustafuck."
I would like to see that statement made into a constitutional amendment. Sent it to my senators. Basically these women women who live off alimony (including my ex at the age of 31) are prostitutes at best.
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