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marylandmom
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Visitation and Vacation - Maryland
      #265 - 06/18/04 07:05 AM

Do you need to get permission from the non-custodial parent for trips out of state (Maryland)? My ex is going on a summer vacation and wants to take our nine year old daughter. She doesn't want to go. Our custody agreement does not mention vacations. My daughter has been having a lot of problems with her father and has been seeing a therapist in order to make her feel more comfortable discussing these problems with him to try to resolve them. These problems are the reasons that she does not want to go. I've explained this to him, but he says she's lying.
Since I expressed that she doesn't want to go on vacation with him, he's sent a letter (through the attorneys) stating that in order to vacation out of state, I must get his permission and that if I don't make her go on vacation with him, he will not grant that permission in the future.
Previously, we've taken out of state vacation several times every year and have only notified him as it pertains to his visitation.
Also, he's doing this because after 9 years of no child support, I was just granted monthly child support. In other words, he's doing this to hurt me, with no regard for how this is affecting our daughter.
Can anyone offer any suggestions or advice?


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gr8Dad
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His actions are not correct-but understandable... [Re: marylandmom]
      #268 - 06/19/04 10:25 AM

The CHILD is NINE. Her "opinion" as to whether or not she wishes to go with Dad is unimportant. And while his actions are kneejerk and perhaps not the best course of action, he is fighting to see the child. You must explain to the CHILD that she WILL go to visitation, and that is all there is.

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Shyrider
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Re: Visitation and Vacation - Maryland [Re: marylandmom]
      #269 - 06/19/04 01:11 PM

What exactly does your custody agreement cover? I'm assuming you have a visitation schedule set up? If so, what are the terms?

I do not agree with gr8dad that because she is 9, her opinion doesn't count. That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Children are not a piece of property; they are human beings with feelings and emotions just like everyone else! Children generally *love* to visit with their parents, especially the NCP, because they don't get to see them as often. When the children adamantly state that they do *not* want to go, that usually means that there is some sort of problem that needs to be resolved. What I don't understand, is why parents insist on *forcing* their children to do something they are not comfortable with in these types of situations. Why can't they take into consideration their children's feelings?

If you legally have to make her go, then there is really no way of getting around it. (which is why I asked about your court order) You don't want to end up being in contempt of court.

Usually, you don't have to get permission to vacation out of state, unless there are extenuating circumstances. However, if you are going to be gone longer than 48 hours, you do need to provide the other parent with an itinerary and phone numbers of where you will be so that they can call to talk to their children if they want to. My ex vacations out of state all the time, (without "permission"), and as long as I have phone numbers of where my son will be, then I don't have a problem with it. It's his parenting time, so he has the freedom to go wherever he chooses. Same for me.

Hope this helps!


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Jarenblue
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Reged: 06/16/04
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Re: Visitation and Vacation - Maryland [Re: marylandmom]
      #271 - 06/19/04 05:08 PM

I just wanted to add that in a way gr8dad is kinda right. She is only 9 and if she doesn't have a valid reason for not going, she really should be made to go. I know with my daughter, who is 8, we have to go through the "I don't want to go" every summer. She doesn't like the way he disciplines her (he is military) and plus she is use to being with me. There is no court order for visitation, I make her go because I think spending time with both parents is very important for kids, even when they don't like how the other lives.

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gr8Dad
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Why are you like this Shy? [Re: Shyrider]
      #273 - 06/20/04 07:52 AM

I didn't SAY her opinion didn't count, I said her opinion as to whether or not she wants to go with DAD doesn't COUNT. BIG difference. It is the LAW. Like SCHOOL, a child MUST do what the court order says.

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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M5K
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Re: Why are you like this Shy? [Re: gr8Dad]
      #274 - 06/20/04 11:33 AM

I see both sides. In our situation, there are times when one or more of the children do not want to go to their mother's house for visitation. But, we make them go anyway unless DH uses his bank of time, in which case he has to give her 30 days written notice.

Sometimes kids do not want to go to the other parents house because of certain rules and punishments. And, in some cases, it could be serious, like abuse. Unless your daughters counselor says that she shouldn't be allowed to go with dad (and for what reason), then the children should be made to go, IMHO.

In our case, either parent who takes the child out of state for more than 48 hours must submit an itinerary to the other parent. That is in our state guidelines. So, you may want to check your state guidelines and see what they say.

Good luck!

--------------------
~*M5*~


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Shyrider
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Re: Why are you like this Shy? [Re: gr8Dad]
      #276 - 06/20/04 09:44 PM

Why am I like this? Like what, exactly?
The fact that I have an opinion that differs from yours somehow makes me ..... what?

We have all seen how good "court orders" are .... and how well they protect the children. You, of all people, should know that. For crying out loud, you are balking against the court order now as it is, because of the way you say your ex treats the children. Tell me, gr8dad, is that court order really in the best interest of your children? Does your children's opinion count about how they feel about visiting their mother? If not, don't you think it should?


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Gecko
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Re: Visitation and Vacation - Maryland [Re: marylandmom]
      #278 - 06/21/04 12:56 AM

[color:green]Would you expect your ex to get permisson from you before leaving the state with the children? [/color]

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gr8Dad
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To Shyrider... [Re: Shyrider]
      #289 - 06/21/04 06:26 PM

When I asked why you are are how you are, I was reffering to the fact that you changed what I said, to fit your disagreement. You made out like I had NO concern for the child, and that the child should have no opinion. When what I SAID was that in regards to visitation, the child should have no opinion.

I may be wasting my time, but I will explain WHY a child's opinion can actually be HARMFUL when it comes to visitation.

Say a child can't WAIT to go to the other parents hopuse for visitation? Does that mean they are NOT being abused? How do you account for the FACT that an abused child will GRAVITATE towards the abusive parent, in an effort to "please" them. Which is why the children do NOT, per LAW, have a say in whether or not they go to visitation.

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Shyrider
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Re: To Shyrider... [Re: gr8Dad]
      #291 - 06/21/04 11:15 PM

I wasn't changing anything to fit my disagreement with you. You said, "Her "opinion" as to whether or not she wishes to go with Dad is unimportant" ---- in MY opinion, this is saying that her opinion doesn't count.

I can't account for ANY abused children that gravitate towards their abusers because I have never witnessed this first hand. ALL of the abused children I have *ever* known have cried and *begged* not to be sent to their abusers.

I understand that by LAW children don't have the option of whether they want to go or not. Doesn't make it right, in my opinion. In all reality, I think it sucks.


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gr8Dad
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Damn Shy, it is there in black and white! [Re: Shyrider]
      #295 - 06/22/04 12:23 PM

You wrote:

"I do not agree with gr8dad that because she is 9, her opinion doesn't count. That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Children are not a piece of property; they are human beings with feelings and emotions just like everyone else!"

I have a simple wuestion for you Shy. Say your daughter went to visit her father for the weekend. She calls you on Sunday afternoon, and says, "I am staying here, I don't want to come back..." You discuss her reasons, and she says she just wants to stay there, cause that is her opinion. What do you do?

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Shyrider
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Re: Damn Shy, it is there in black and white! [Re: gr8Dad]
      #296 - 06/22/04 05:29 PM

One, that would never happen. My daughter doesn't go to see my ex because he abused her. You couldn't pay her enough to live there.

Two, my son HAS called and asked if he could stay extra days with his dad, "just because". I let him. Had no reason not to. He wanted to spend time with his dad, so I said, "Sure! Let me know when you are ready to come home." He then called me when he was ready.

What's your point?


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gr8Dad
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No, you side stepped it... [Re: Shyrider]
      #301 - 06/22/04 10:36 PM

I am not TALKING about a FEW extra days, I am talking about NOT coming back. In other words, the child calls from the NCP's and says that they want to LIVE with the other parent. Cause you are ALL for letting the CHILD make the decision, so let them make it, right?

Well, by allowing the child to decide if they want to go see the NCP for the weekend, you are doing the SAME thing.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Shyrider
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Re: No, you side stepped it... [Re: gr8Dad]
      #311 - 06/23/04 12:44 PM

You know what, gr8dad? I have no desire to sit here and argue with you. No matter what you say, you will not change my opinion. You have your beliefs, I have mine. Why can't that be accepted as our own individual freedom?

I have no respect for you, especially after you called me a nazi for no apparent reason, so I'm done arguing with you on this. I will continue to think the way I think, and you will continue to think the way you think. What's the point in trying to move two unmovable objects?


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Shyrider
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Re: No, you side stepped it... [Re: Shyrider]
      #312 - 06/23/04 12:46 PM

P.S.

If my son really had a great desire to live with his father full time, and only come to visit me on a visitation schedule, then yes, I would let him. It would break my heart, but I would do it.

Why? Because it would be in *his* best interest. If he felt more comfortable with his father, then I would allow him to live where he wanted to, simply so that he would know that I will always put my love for HIM first.


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gr8Dad
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And what if the child DIDN'T come to visit you? [Re: Shyrider]
      #326 - 06/24/04 04:20 PM

Because THAT is what you are advocating. You CANNOT tell a child, "Well, sweetie, SOMETIMES you can decide whether or not to go to see the other parent, unless you don't see them ENOUGH, then you CAN'T decide..." You cannot play with their emotions like that. Either they have a say, or they don't. Fortunately, because there are parents like you out there that DOD let the child decide, the law says NO, you CANNOT, unless there are special circumstances. Do you know WHY there are laws like that? Because, despite people like YOU who want to make a child decide, and place them in that position, they are CHILDREN. And it is our JOB to make children do things, even if they don't "want" to, because in LIFE, children must do things they don't LIKE.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Nicksdad
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Re: And what if the child DIDN'T come to visit you? [Re: gr8Dad]
      #331 - 06/24/04 09:52 PM

Gr8 counter gr8dad however you know you can't and never will win this argument right ?

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M5K
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Re:SIGH! [Re: Nicksdad]
      #332 - 06/24/04 11:51 PM

Well, Gr8dad, I see where you are coming from. This is all about the children learning responsibility too. I guess it could go along the lines of chores :P

BUT! BUT! I think a child should have a say when it is concerning abuse...ANY abuse (verbal, emotional, physical, etc.)

I mean, they can't just not go because the other parent does not have cable or because there are too many rules at the other parents house. You know what I mean!

JMHO! ;)

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~*M5*~


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gr8Dad
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Wrong again... [Re: M5K]
      #348 - 06/25/04 01:59 PM

If the child is being abused, you MUST not permit them to go to visitation.

Despite your ealier comments, it is PROVEN that an abused child will gravitate towards the abuser, as they blame themselves for the abuse, and feel that if they could only be "better", that the parent would "love" them more and not hurt them.

This is why it is PARAMOUNT that the child have no say whatsoever in the visitation process. The order is put in place, and you tell the CHILD, "Okay, time to go to Mommy's/Daddy's, lets go..."

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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M5K
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Re: Wrong again... [Re: gr8Dad]
      #362 - 06/26/04 01:34 AM

Oh! Of course you must not let them go if they are being abused!

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~*M5*~


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