momtothreekids
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Reged: 05/01/12
Posts: 13
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We have ROFR in our court order. It states that any time day care or a third party person is needed to care for the children over 5 hours the parent using the opposing party shall have the right of first refusal.
Here is a huge issue. My ex husband has the kids for 5 weeks this summer. I am a stay-at-home-mom and he did not ask me to take the kids while he is at work. Instead he is putting them in many different camps. He refuses to tell me where they will be for 4 out of the 5 weeks, but for one week he told me they will be at a local day camp. I contact them to get info and they sent me their registration forms. Those forms state he will have the kids there from 6:45 am (pre care) to 5:30 pm (includes post care). The forms do NOT list me as mother or emergency contact. His girlfriend is listed as both of those, stating she is the step-parent but she is not. It states clearly that the children are not allowed to be released at any time to myself or my husband. It states they do not have any medical conditions. They both have asthma, my son is lactose intollerant, and my daughter has vasovagal (google it) and she even sees a cardiologist for that.
He is stating that they are camps...not day care. In my opinion almost 11 hours is way too long. They don't even want to go. My son attended this camp last year with a friend and almost drowned in the pool at the facility, even though he is on the swim team at school, there were way too many kids in the pool and someone jumped on him while jumping off the side of the pool.
I have an attorney who said my ex's attorney will fight this to the death, but he feels I am in the right. Our FOC agrees with me, but at the same time they have dual opinions quite often and I am afraid they also agree with ex.
Day camp is licensed, it is a tax right off and if they were not in camp they would be in day care. He is doing this to make me made, because he knows the kids are upset about being with him half the summer. They have not been away from me for greater than 2 days since the divorce.
Ex never uses ROFR, but I always use it if I have to go out of town or to a banquet or wedding. I am not seeing this as fair.
Any suggestions?
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finz
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Reged: 06/17/08
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"and my daughter has vasovagal (google it)"
"Any suggestions?"
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Yup.
Start with googling 'vasovagal' yourself. Your daughter doesn't 'have' vasovagal. It is not a disease. It is a nerve.
She may have had a vasovagal response while trying to have a bm. She may have vasovagal syncope. She doesn't 'have' vasovagal.
If you are going to pursue the issue of ROFR, I would start with determining what is an actual issue a judge should care about and what is an example of you wanting to choose how your ex should parent.
Focus on the ROFR. If the kids are going to need to be in someone other than your ex's care for more than 5 hours, you want to have ROFR. If it was 5 hours and 15 minutes, you have the ROFR. No need to make an issue of the fact that YOU consider 11 hours to be too long.
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gr8Dad
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Reged: 06/07/04
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Keep in mind that you are opening a can of worms. There WILL be a time when you will want to leave the kids for an extended period of time with a relative, and you will NOT be allowed.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
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not to mention as the children get older and want to participate in something (sporting camp, cheerleading camp, academic camp,church camp, spend the night at a friends, any and all times they would need to be away for more then 5 hours) he will be able to do the same as you and exercise ROFR and the CHILDREN will be the ones who miss out/lose. Do the children not want to go due to something you may have said or implied or whatever? Children generally have a lot of fun at these camps, however with pressure from one or both parents for whatever reason (he may be pressuring too) the child feels the tension and tries to appease one or both parents ALWAYS unsuccessfully - I really hope this isn't because you want to control the situation?
Not putting you on the information is wrong and listing the gf as a stepparent is wrong, however they may have put down that you cannot go get them because they know you will - the father may want his children to experience things outside of the home, which makes them much more rounded individuals. OR he may just be being controlling but the experiences the children will have are more important then either parent trying to control.
Good Luck
Just my 2 cents.
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Debi
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It sounds like the ROFR is in play here. The next question is should you push it? Personally there are only so many hills I'm willing to die on. You have to figure out yours. Obviously you thought enough of this man to have children with him. Did you do that thinking that he could not take care of them as well as you would? If not then why would you be so insistent on interupting his time with them?
He is planning activities for them, not planning for them to sit at a babysitters house with nothing to do. IMO it's 5 weeks out of the year. Give him the opportunity to be a real parent and give your kids the opportunity to see a different way of living than being at home all day. I see it as a win/win and hardly worth the money or aggravation it will cause. I imagine that you hope at some point you can co-parent with your x and have the kids see their parents acting like adults. this would be a good place to start.
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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Buckeye
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Reged: 12/08/05
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The only problem that I see with this is that the mom is not listed as an emergency contact. If you can, go to the camp or call the camp and get this changed.
However, I would not insist that the kids come back with you if they are there over 5 hours. Let them have this time. If the shoe was on the other foot, you wouldn't like it if he took them out of any camp you might want to put them in at some point.
So, the only thing I would do is call or email him and ask him to have the emergency contact person changed. While the kids are with him, he should be #1 contact, you #2 contact and from there your husband. His GF should not be on the emergency form at all because she would have no rights to authorize anything.
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momtothreekids
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I have a diagnosis from her cardiologist and yes she has been diagnosed with HAVING Vasovagal. It is a term used by cardiologist to describe her issue. She faints, NOT from having a BM. There could be many factors that cause her to faint, one of them is when her BP drops. She is hypotensive. She also suffers from anxiety and when she becomes anxious she can pass out. Our cardiologist is an expert in this field.
Right of First Refusal in our order states if we are unable to care for the children for over 5 hours. I am a stay at home mom, so if I put the kids in camps or programs it is because they want to be there! Not because they HAVE to! If my ex had not put the kids in this camp (for 11 hours a day!!!!) they would be in day care, because he works. So he is unable to care for them! He is not just going against the order, but my son is so upset that he begged his therapist (the one he sees due to issues with his father) to call his dad telling him he does not want to go to that camp. I also have a letter from last summer from the day camp director stating that at least 90% of the families use this camp as day care.
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ssmom79
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Reged: 06/27/07
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If you think your ex is going against the ROFR the only way to determine that is to file a contempt charge against him, period. Then you can tell the judge your feelings on the matter.
Regardless of the special needs, the asthma, the hours of day camp, the myriad of other reasons you list as to why you should be offered the kids over a day camp, I don't know how a judge would handle a situation when a father is on his CO'd summer time and the mother demanding ROFR every day because Dad is working.
If you don't like how the forms are worded, then go back to the day care and ask that your information be included. Take a copy of your court order ONLY to show that there are no restrictions on pickups and that you should be included on the emergency contact card and you should be able to pick them up. Don't get the day care involved in your ROFR drama...people hate being put in the middle of post divorce banter between parents.
I understand your concern about your daughter and your son while not in your care, but they make it through school right? They can make it through day care if things don't go your way. You don't want to start allowing your kids to determine what they do and what's best for themselves. Is this the first summer visitation where he's got them five weeks in a row?
Do you know why your ex is so angry, putting the kids in camps to make you mad? My first thought was that he wanted uninterrupted time with the kids, which would be logical to put them in daycare rather than back with you. I know it's not the way you read the ROFR in the CO, but you have to be prepared for this to go either way.
You've been separated a few years, and divorce just over a year, believe me there is a LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG way to go from here. Make sure you choose your battles wisely.
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annieo
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Reged: 07/07/10
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Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Let us be brutally honest here the likelihood of the Judge making the kids go to mom during the day over a camp that is on Dads time is slim to none. If Dad lived a couple hours away or even a hour - the children would be at the camp because he can't take 5 weeks off.
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Debi
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His GF should not be on the emergency form at all because she would have no rights to authorize anything.
In an emergency situation she would be able to tell them which hospital to take the child to and would be able to contact dad or possibly get to the kids fater than anyone else. My SO is listed on my daughters daycare forms as an emergency contact. Her dad is a truck driver and no where near us. He is listed on the forms as her dad but not as an emergency contact. There is no point. I will fill out the forms the same way when she starts kindergarten. My bf works second shift and at least in the mornings could get to school quicker than me. Dad can't get there at all. He is of course able to get any information he would like from the daycare and is listed to be able to access their website.
Personally I see nothing wrong with listing a SO as an emergency contact if they have a relationship with the child. It would be no different than listing a grandparent. My daughters dad has no problem with my SO being listed. He knows that he would make then best choices possible for her.
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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elliesmom
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I think you will lose the ROFR issue. Camp is not daycare. It is an activity. Unless you want him demanding they be with him instead of going to a band/choir festival I would NOT want to go there. The before/after care is not 5 hours so it would seem he is not violating the decree.
Given your litigious attitude I am not surprised he will not permit you to pick them up.
I am not sure what else has transpired here, but if I were you I would step back and take a deep breath. You will be dealing with these people for years. Its not worth the grief to be this nitpicky.
I would simply contact him and ask that you be listed so you can be contacted in an emergency and that their health forms be updated to reflect medical conditions and the names of their Doctors/specialists.
But first I would speak to her Dr again. Because the description of "having a Vasovagal" is incomplete. There are VV episodes/responses/attacks and the aforementioned syncope. It would be best that the information be complete.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Buckeye
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I have Vasovagal but my trigger point is blood. I was told that, at least what I do, is hold my breath. They told me to talk about anything - so far that seems to have helped a lot.
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momtothreekids
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Reged: 05/01/12
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The issue is the gf is not only the emergency contact, but she is listed under the mother section as step mother. They are not married. I am listed as someone who is not allowed to pick up the children. So if there was an emergency not only would I not be made aware, I would not be able to pick the kids up without a court order, and since he filled out the medical info incorrectly the chances of my daughter going to the ER for not having her inhaler is very very very possible. She is in the ER about once every other month for an attack that even the inhaler won't cure.
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elliesmom
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I agree that you should be an emergency contact. And certainly the medical information should be complete. Including diagnosis, triggers, and what they should do in the event something happens. I worked at a camp for years - they appreciate that kind of complete information. Don't tell me your kid has asthma "when he has to do hard things" and send him with no Dr info or inhalar. Because then I think your kid is lazy and you allow it. Mainly because - I have asthma.
But - I also know that even when DH and I weren't married and the kids went to daycamp - BM was not listed as a contact or pickup person. 1 - because she lived about 20 hours away. I worked 5 minutes away. And he was afraid - since she had no job and did everything possible to thwart him as a parent - she WOULD just pick them up for no reason. I don't know what has transpired between you and your ex (I can guess), but this is one of those times that had you managed to be civil, agree to disagree etc. I can bet you WOULD be on the forms. But instead you want to run to court over CAMP and you demanded copies of registration forms etc. He doesn't trust you. And if you do run to court - a judge will know he is right you WOULD just hassle him over camp and he had a reason to deal with you this way. The fact is the camp will call him in an emergency - he will either deal with it or call you as will his gf. The best thing you can do to keep this from happening again is to nicely ask your ex that you be included as an emergency contact if they can't reach him or his gf. And let.it.go. In my experience "emergency" at camp consisted of forgotten lunches. Something his gf can easily handle if he wants her to (or he can).
You've involved the kids in this by trying to elicit that they don't want to go and I really don't like that. Neither did my SKs after their mom asked them. Because they knew in their hearts what she WANTED to hear, and said it. They LOVED camp btw. It got my SS (now 19) involved in something he still enjoys to this day - fencing. An enthusiastic "Oh I am sure you will have a GREAT time!" (while you secretly shore up any concerns you may have) would be appropriate and the KIND, LOVING thing to for your kids. Because they ARE going. They can be miserable about it or look forward to it. Which will you promote - misery or happiness?
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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SRS
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Reged: 11/05/10
Posts: 2161
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I don't think I'd fight this one. If summer at Dad's sucks because they are in daycare, that is Dad's deal. BTDT. That is on him.
You must be on the Emergency Contact list, the pick up list, and the camp must know about the medical issues. My kids Dad is on the pick up list and the EC list. He moved 70 miles away, but I thought it would be respectful to leave him on the list. He likes it, but had me include a note asking that he not be called because it bothers him. My parents and BFF are also listed as contacts. (What kid wants to stay at school if he throws up and they can't reach Mom?) Just contact the director with a copy of the CO.
Don't pick them up, however, let them spend time with Dad.
You can spend the time relaxing. Making your home gorgeous, getting your nails done, whatever gets neglected when you have the kiddos.
ETA: The camp my kiddos went to does suck, btw. No activities other than watching movies. 10 kids ranging from Kindergarten to 5th grade. But, when they are with me I don't send them to that camp. That is on him.
Edited by SRS (05/05/12 07:08 AM)
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Debi
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You are listed as someone not allowed to pick up the kids because he is convinced you will go get them and take them home. How valid is his concern? If you are not listed anywhere on the paperwork then how did you get a copy of the registration forms? I doubt they will send them to just anyone. If you provided a copy of the CO to get them then the camp now knows you have joint custody and will add you as an emergency contact. they still don't have to----and shouldn't release the kids "just because" since it's out of your CO'd time.
It doesn't matter if she is listed as gf or sm. Her rights don't change. They are whatever he allows them to be. Maybe he doesn't feel as if it's any of the camp's business if they are married or not. (and its not ) Or maybe they did get married (or will before summer) and he just doesn't feel the need to tell you.
And FTR I was responding to the poster who said the gf should not be listed at all. I was explaining that my SO is listed as an emergency contact for my daughter and why.
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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Buckeye
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If the child lives with you and your husband or SO, then they should be listed on any forms AFTER the other parent. If the child does not live with you the majority of the time, then I don't think your husband or SO should be listed on emergency contact form.
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/05/10
Posts: 2161
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ITA Buckeye.
Not shackup, BFF, grandparents. In most cases, Mom and Dad first.
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elliesmom
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In most cases I would agree, but I think a gf is no different than any other kind of friend. And I had friends listed before DH on DD6's preschool forms because I knew - he COULD NOT be of any help. He wouldn't be able to leave work EVER. Nor would he know where I was. But my BFF - didn't work, pretty much knew where I was most days and would pick up my kids in a heartbeat. And vice versa.
And of course when DH and I were dating we felt it was entirely appropriate - partly because we were afraid she would pull shenanigans, but mostly because she was not in a position to do anything helpful. She was 8-10 states away.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Avaya
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Loc: Arkansas
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Off the cuff I'll say you have too much time on your hands and maybe you need a job. An NCP that gets limited time with their children (5 weeks out of a year plus EOWE is incredibly limited). When he has them for the extended time in the summer, he should have uninterrupted time which he wouldn't get if you were the babysitter. He should get to expose them to 'life at daddy's'. If they've never been away from you for greater than 2 days then it's high time! He is their father equal to your role as their mother and perhaps they wouldn't be so sad or upset about this if you weren't.
Yes he should list you as an emergency contact and he should reveal their medical info but he didn't.
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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Avaya
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Reged: 02/09/06
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Loc: Arkansas
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Furthermore, if they've never been away from you more than 2 days and son went to this camp last summer, then that means you put him there. Did you ask dad if he wanted that time first?
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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finz
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Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 6453
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[quote]I have a diagnosis from her cardiologist and yes she has been diagnosed with HAVING Vasovagal. It is a term used by cardiologist to describe her issue. She faints, NOT from having a BM. There could be many factors that cause her to faint, one of them is when her BP drops. She is hypotensive. She also suffers from anxiety and when she becomes anxious she can pass out. Our cardiologist is an expert in this field.
[/quote]
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*sigh*
Perhaps her cardiologist is an expert in cardiology, but not the english language. Perhaps you just misunderstood what the cardiologist said or he/she abbreviated something.
You don't have to explain it to me, I understand what vasovagal means. You don't seem to get it though.
Again, vasovagal isn't a disease or a condition. A vasovagal response describes an abnormal response of the vagus nerve. It's just a combination of the words vascular and vagus. It is an adjective. Someone can have a benign tumor. You might just say they have a "tumor", but you wouldn't say they have "a benign"
Vasovagal syncope (which it sounds like you are describing), vasovagal attacks, vasovagal responses......THEY are medical conditions.
Again, if YOU don't get that. YOU should be googling the word, NOT instructing us to do so.
Are you POSITIVE you have written documention from that cardiologist stating your dd "has vagogal" (per your first post) ? Or did he specifically write "HAVING vasovagal" as you wrote in this post ? Is it possible that he just wrote "vasovagal" as part of a list of diagnoses, as one might write diabetic (the adjective) instead of diabetes (the disease)?
One might say "James is diabetic"
One might say "James has diabetes"
One would not (or should not) say "James has diabetic"
One also should not say "James has vasogal"
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