Izzy695
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Hi everyone, I'm a lurker and first time poster here.
The situation is somewhat long and complicated, but I'd like your opinions.
A little over 3 years ago my husband had an affair while I was pregnant with our second son. I caught him and kicked him out. He begged and pleded with me to let him come back a few days later, and suggested marriage counselling. I agreed. During the course of the counselling, he got BACK together with his mistress, and continued on for several months. He lied to the marriage counsellor during this time. I caught him again when the baby was 6 weeks old. Once again I booted him, this time I thought it was for good. Again he begged, and I relented, but demanded that he make certain changes, including to stop swearing in front of the kids and to make up with my parents.
I have asked him a number of times to honour those promises, and told him to stop baiting me. He realized then that he did it, but didn't stop it. In fact he frequently used the name of his ex-mistress to bait me, even when we went out for our anniversary. Even his parents have told him to treat me better, not that he respects them either.
There are a number of other issues, drinking, [censored], etc. He has carried on what could be defined as an internet affair with a woman I know, and I have pictures and emails back and forth to prove it. He went so far as to invite this (married) woman to our house when she was in the area. Nothing happened, but I wouldn't doubt he tried. He never told me, and told her not to tell me because I'd be angry that the house was messy.
Well, of course, these changes hadn't taken place. He baits me constantly, doing and saying things just to get a rise out of me. This summer he took on a large outdoor project, then yelled at me when I couldn't help him. He would work outside until after 9pm. I found solace and refuge in an online game I have played for years now (and he used to play with me until he got bored of it). I would much rather socialize with those people than my husband, since it prevented arguments and fights.
There I have met someone very special, and I am very attracted to him. I realize that this complicates matters. I do not say that two wrongs make a right.
I am at a crossroads. I have given my husband 2 chances now to change, and of course now he's swearing once again to change, to treat me right, to stop baiting me, etc. He realizes he was a fool to ignore me, that no man should expect his wife to help him with such a large project. But I have seen these *changes* before, twice to be exact, and in time he always goes back to the way he was. I feel like I need to chose between giving him yet another chance to change, and starting over with someone else.
Do you believe that someone can truly change?
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pokey
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Not sure none of us really knows him.
My wife filed for divorce and it really opened my eyes. I started going to counsueling but from what she says it's just too late.
However I never did anything that comes close to what your husband has done. I guess what I did was not make my son from another marraige mind as good as he should have.
But I guess that all it took for her.
As far as him changing I'm not sure. He has to want to change. Not only for you but for himself and the sake of your relationship. If you really mean that much to him then he will cahnge. But I would insist to continue going to the counsuelor and letting him help you guys work through it.
As far as the other guy, take him out of the picture and see what you really want. You have to look at it as if when you leave then it's just you, because you don't really know this other guy. Maybe you leave your husband, you and this other guy get together and are only together for a coulple months and then it's no fun anymore. then what?
I beleive that any marraige can be saved if both people want it and they get the help they need.
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losingfaith
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Quote:
As far as him changing I'm not sure. He has to want to change. Not only for you but for himself and the sake of your relationship. If you really mean that much to him then he will cahnge. But I would insist to continue going to the counsuelor and letting him help you guys work through it.
As far as the other guy, take him out of the picture and see what you really want. You have to look at it as if when you leave then it's just you, because you don't really know this other guy. Maybe you leave your husband, you and this other guy get together and are only together for a coulple months and then it's no fun anymore. then what?
I beleive that any marraige can be saved if both people want it and they get the help they need.
this is some grate advice pokey
to Izzy695
I am sorry to here what has happened
Quote:
Do you believe that someone can truly change?
Yes he can but that is if he truly wants to, but it's not easy and it requires help to stay on track.
That’s the reason they have sponsors in AA.
They are there to help you keep things on the right path.
If you want to save this marriage it’s going to require a few things on your part.
If I were in your position I would sit him down and talk to him. First make sure that he understands that this is not an argument but you want him to understand exactly where you stand. Explain to him that this is the final straw and if it fails then this is it. (if that is truly how you feel) If he agrees this is what it’s going to take. Keep in mind I’m no counselor but I have been to a few and I have read several books on how this can be done. The first thing to understand is it’s not something you or he can do alone it’s a team effort.
Playing an only game all the time (especially talking to this other man) is not going to help and I can tell you that from personal experience! If you want to get your marriage back on track it's going to take an effort on both parts. You will need to find out how he needs your support and get behind him by showing encouragement and support.
You can't play the game from the sidelines and then complain when the game takes a turn for the worst.
I’ll type out all the things I know of on how to help but it’s going to take a while and it will be a lot for me to take on but before I do that I’m asking you if you truly want to save this?
You figure out the answer to that question and I'm willing to offer all I know.
Hope you don’t give up.
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/26/09 02:24 PM)
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pokey
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One thing that I've been told, is that afairs don't last. After the excitment of being with a married person with no commitment wears off (which is usally as soon as the marriage ends) then the other person pushes away. They were with you for only one reason "excitment" that's it. When you leave your husband then you'll be around him a lot more and it's not as fun. I don't know, this is just what I've learned. To be honest it kind of confusses me. Here I am never cheated or even come close or considered it, and I can't get my wife to work with me. This guy has a wife that not only caught him but is wondering if she should save her marraige. good luck sweethart
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losingfaith
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I here you pokey it sucks big time
I'm in the same boat as you my situation is a bit different but I have never cheated on my wife nor have I ever not tried to do what was best for us in the long run but she could not see that this was my intention
Instead she made it look as if I was trying to control the situation
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/26/09 03:40 PM)
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losingfaith
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Reged: 01/26/09
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to Izzy695
I'm in a divorce care group
and tonight they were talking about this very subject
you are here asking about reconciling and if you are doing that you need to cut off all contact with this other man
#1 it's not fair to you because you can't focus on what you need to do to address the problems in your marriage if your even talking to this guy. if you are serious about fixing things then it must go both ways and you need to keep your head in this ball game not the one in the other field
#2 it's not fair to your spouse. you are giving him a hard time for the things he has done and yet you are doing the same thing. what if he is to find out...
then what?
would you have him treat you in the same category you are putting him in and why would you want to put yourself in that category anyway? Especially if you think that was so wrong of him in the first place
#3 it's not fair to him (the other guy) because if you do decide to fix things with your husband he will only end up getting hurt. so why would you want to do that to someone else? not to mention if you are to get involved with this other man you would more then likely bring baggage from your former marriage into this one.
and the last thing I want to offer is this
why in the world would you want to get involved with someone that seams to know that you are married
over look the fat that he may be intriguing for a second here and ask yourself
if he is willing to get involved with you while you are still married...
what makes you think for one second he would not turn around and do the same to you
it has been my experience that gamers don't have much of a sex life and are more then likely simply looking for a fix to that need
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/27/09 02:08 AM)
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Izzy695
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Reged: 10/26/09
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Thank you all for your responses.
I would like to clarify a few things from the original post:
My husband knows about the affair, and has offered to change. It took the affair, the *hammer over his head* as he puts it, for him to see the things I had been complaining about. This is what has prompted the offer of change.
The other man, so to speak, is more than 2000 miles away, we have met once. I have no illusions regarding this, I do not expect him to be a white knight, nor will he make my life perfect. I am not running into his arms. I am trying to keep the decisions separate. I realize that if I decide to try yet again with my husband that I need to cut off all contact with him. The other man is also aware of this. We have spoken at length about it.
I have sat down with husband with our original marriage counsellor (from his affair), and again alone with her. She believes that everyone is capable of change, but that they need to want to do it for themselves. She does not feel that he has demonstrated this to her.
I have enabled his horrendous behaviour over the last ten years or more. As losingfaith mentioned, it takes a lot of help to change, and even my husband said to the counsellor that I need to hit him over the head a little harder than I have been. But I'm not his mother, and I do not want to spend the rest of my life has his behaviour police.
At what point do you give yourself permission to stop trying? When do you feel that you've invested too much of yourself, and that you have no more to give?
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losingfaith
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Quote:
The other man, so to speak, is more than 2000 miles away, we have met once. I have no illusions regarding this, I do not expect him to be a white knight, nor will he make my life perfect. I am not running into his arms. I am trying to keep the decisions separate. I realize that if I decide to try yet again with my husband that I need to cut off all contact with him. The other man is also aware of this. We have spoken at length about it.
It doesn’t matter if he is 10,000 miles or 10 min it’s all the same and talking to him at this point clouds the judgment regardless
During the divorce care that I spoke of we watch films from the top relationship experts from around the world
They all said the same thing and said any councilor would tell you the same
Quote:
But I'm not his mother, and I do not want to spend the rest of my life has his behaviour police.
I understand you are not his mother, but you are his wife and you should want him to succeed? Yes that should go both ways but I think you get the point
Question you said you stay home right?
(this is an assumption or call it an example)
I’m sure that it would be done for a choice. That choice would more then likely be because it was in the best interest of all; so he could go out and make money.
If this is in fact true then; why would one not want someone to fail in that aspect but be so willing to allow them to fail or not contribute to him succeeding in the emotional side of things?
A relationship is a team effort and the two of you should complement one another’s weaknesses.
Quote:
At what point do you give yourself permission to stop trying? When do you feel that you've invested too much of yourself, and that you have no more to give?
That is something only you can answer but I truly don’t think you can do that while talking to another man
On the video we watched they talked about…
How can you identify if talking to someone else is interfering in fixing or deciding weather or not to fix your relationship. They touched on several subjects that were pertaining to how one can identify this (that included talking to friends and family members) but the thing that applies to this situation the best is this… (All of experts from around the word said the exact same thing)
The answer was this if you have ever entertained the idea of being with this other person or spoke to them about it then you have already allowed it to cloud your judgment.
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/27/09 11:44 AM)
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Izzy695
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Reged: 10/26/09
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Again, thank you for your insights and suggestions.
I have a an update on this situation. My husband recently emailed my mother, with whom he is currently estranged.
In that email he places blame on me that he baits me, because I do not help to break his stress. He blames me for not helping more with the large outdoor project, that I should have realized he would need my help. This is a completely different tune from a few days ago, where he asked me what kind of husband asks their wife to do that kind of work.
In short, he blames his behaviour on me. If I would only listen more, help more, be more sympathetic, then he would behave differently.
This does not sound like a man who is willing to make changes to better our relationship.
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losingfaith
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well on one hand I agree he needs to stick to what it is that he says
but that's not to say that you may verry well be part of his stress
I have a question
what is wrong with helping with the project
my wife use to get involved with things I did around the house
I didn't expect her to do much but she would hand me tools while I worked
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/28/09 08:08 PM)
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losingfaith
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Quote:
well on one hand I agree he needs to stick to what it is that he says
but that's not to say that you may very well be part of his stress
I have a question
what is wrong with helping with the project
my wife use to get involved with things I did around the house
I didn't expect her to do much but she would hand me tools while I worked
and to be honest it was nice just to have the company
it's more about doing things together and spending time together
he needs to steep into your world from time to time
and you need to do the same
there is nothing wrong with this
This project is it something that you him and the kids will be able to enjoy?
if so look at it more from the aspect that you are investing in your own happiness
the counselor my wife and I were attending put it best when she said to my wife and me…
(she used a poker playing metaphor because she said relationships were like a gamble)
“You can not take someone back expecting them to be the only one that puts his or hers chips in the pot. If not it a rigged game; and no one wants to play a game that the outcome is fixed.”
She said that basically what that meant was you both need to put an effort into this. If not you are making the statement that you only forgave to punishes the other person.
he can't be the only one investing in this it must be a two way street and simply because you took him back after all he has done doest not relieve you of that reasonability. I’m not saying he is not equally responsible but you did come here looking for a way to save this.
Oh and one of the most important things she (the counselor) said was you have to put yourself into, the shoos of another and try to be understanding and patient. With out it you will never succeed.
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/29/09 10:25 AM)
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Izzy695
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Again Losingfaith, thanks for your reply.
The project was an 800 square foot hardwood deck. He consulted me on some of the design, but otherwise he planned it himself. I did help with the 10,000lbs of concrete it took for the support pilons (I helped to mix and pour all of it), the ballusters, some of the drilling, etc. We have 2 young boys, the youngest was only 2 1/2 this summer, and is a happy wanderer. So much of my time outside needs to be devoted to keeping an eye on him, or I'll find him in the middle of the highway.
So while I helped, it wasn't as much as he wanted. Keep in mind that he expected me to come home, feed the kids, clean the kitchen, then go outside and spend the rest of my time helping him, then put the kids to bed, then go back outside again to help him. On top of that, I had no idea what I was doing, yet he would yell at me if I did something wrong.
Then he talked about putting a gazebo up on one spot of the deck. I knew this was in the plans, but we had discussed how this would be phase 2, ie to be done next summer. Instead, he went ahead and started it even though the deck itself wasn't finished. I did some of the roofing for the gazebo. When he messed up the cuts for the second roof, I was expected to help him fix it.
He started installing deck lights, but didn't finish that. He wanted to put in a sound system, went out and purchased the items, and put that up. Although the section of the wall that was destroyed to get the wires into the house remains unfixed.
He decided to run electrical outlets for some of the sound system, and ended up shorting out part of the house. We were without electricity in the downstairs bathroom for 2 weeks until he got around to fixing it.
On top of that, he took over the entire garage for tools and equipment. Which was ok in the summer, but he refused to clean the garage, leaving inches of sawdust all over the place to be tracked into the house, and tools left all over the floor. We had purchased cabinets and tool chests, which sat empty as all the tools were in piles all over the floor. Everytime I tried to clean he called me stupid, because he wasn't done with the project, so it was a waste of time. I tried putting tools away, but he would get upset because then he couldn't find them. I wasn't allowed to move his piles.
So now nothing is finished. Not the deck, not the gazebo. He did manage to melt part of the siding off the house when he set fire to a pile of scrap wood though, not considering the wind blowing the fire towards the house.
Although it's tempting to say, well, it's just one project, it's not. This is sort of a poster child for our relationship. What he wants to do, his project of the day (and this isn't his first one) takes precendence over anything I need or want to do. He himself has admitted this. What he finds to be important trumps me, and if I don't want to do what he wants I'm not helping or supporting him. I'm stupid and dumb and what ever other names he called me if I can't do what he wants the way he wants it done or if I contradict him.
Once he's done with the project of the moment, he's DONE. The aquarium that we have built into the house is leaking, but he hasn't fixed it. The waterfall he built last summer stopped working, and he expected me to find the leaks and to fix it this summer (although he was upset to see me doing that instead of the deck).
So again, do I help him with his projects? Yes, I do. Do I step into his world, yes. But honestly, would you want to spend time in a toxic environment like that?
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losingfaith
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..::Edit::..
Ok I stand corrected
It would seam he is blaming you for his mess-ups on the project
If it were me I would have sent you to get the sound system while I worked on the project, it sounds like your husband simply doesn’t understand how to delegate the work load to best utilize and complement you abilities.
Basically in a nut shell he is not being realistic about what you can and can not do on this project. By the sound of things (ie him almost burning the house down and the bad cuts on the wood) you should be the one with the foreman hat on.
Lol
I wouldn’t repeat that to him it will only start an argument because it will make him feal belittled.
As far as a two and a half year old I can understand that also requiring a lot of attention.. It sounded as if you kids were older from the start of this thread. I apologize for making that assumption.
I honestly don’t know what else to offer.
If you want it to work make it work.
You have to make that choice no one can make it for you.
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
Edited by losingfaith (10/30/09 09:45 AM)
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Izzy695
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Reged: 10/26/09
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Losingfaith,
thanks again for taking the time to read such a long diatribe. I am at odds with what to do. On the one hand I've had it with his behaviour, and on the other hand I'm tempted to give him yet another chance to change.
At this point I'm just not sure I can do it again. I'm emotionally drained and feel like I'm just going to throw good energy after bad, you know what I mean?
Thanks again!
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losingfaith
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Yeah unfortunately I do know what you mean
but like I said the choice is yours and yours alone to make I can only offer advice
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Standing above the crowd he had a voice that was strong and loud
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