googledad
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WFTV received voice samples that George Zimmerman provided investigators in order to determine who was yelling for help on a 911 call made the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was killed.
Zimmerman is in jail on second-degree murder charges in Martin's shooting death.
In the audio sample, Zimmerman screams, "Help! Help! Help! Help!"
Zimmerman claims that he was yelling that night.
The FBI couldn't confirm that.
Sanford police detectives said they believe Martin knew Zimmerman was watching him because Zimmerman told police that Martin approached him as he sat parked at the clubhouse inside his gated community.
During an interview with Zimmerman, investigators asked him, "I'm still not understanding. When he walked up to your car, why didn't you say anything to him?"
"I guess fear. I didn't want to confront him," Zimmerman said.
Zimmerman said he was scared, but the lead investigator, Chris Serino, questioned why he continued to follow Martin and then got out of his truck.
Serino asked Zimmerman, "So you basically jumped out of the car to see where he's going?"
"Yes, sir," Zimmerman replied.
"That's not fear, that's one of the problems I have with the whole thing," said Serino.
But that contradicts an earlier statement Zimmerman gave to police when he told them he got out of his truck to find a street sign for the dispatcher.
"You're a part of the homeowner's association? Are you head of the neighborhood watch?" Serino asked.
"Yes, sir," Zimmerman said.
"Once again, something else I got to try to explain away. How do you not know the three streets in your neighborhood, and you been living there three years?" Serino asked.
Zimmerman never gave the dispatcher the street name, but said he walked back to his truck and agreed to meet police at the community mailboxes. However, he suddenly changed his mind.
"Actually, could you have him, could you have him call me and I'll tell him where I'm at? Zimmerman told the dispatcher.
WFTV learned that after Zimmerman hung up with the dispatcher, only a minute passed before someone called to report screams in the neighborhood.
Also, less than a minute after that call, Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest.
"The impression would be that you're just going to continue to look, and when they get here you'll just tell them where you're at," a detective said in the interview.
At that point, Zimmerman told police he couldn't remember some things because he has ADHD.
But detectives also questioned Zimmerman's cries for help.
During a video reenactment, Zimmerman told investigators that Martin's hand was over Zimmerman's mouth.
But investigators said, in that case, Zimmerman couldn't have yelled for help.
Serino asked for reassignment on Tuesday, away from Zimmerman's case.
In the meantime, Zimmerman is asking the judge to allow him to wear a suit during his second bond hearing set for Friday.
In a motion filed on Wednesday, his lawyer asked that he not be shackled for court and be allowed to wear street clothes.
The audio :
wftv.com/news/news/local/george-zimmerman-audio-samples-given-investigators/nPgRf/
The 911 call :
youtube.com/watch?v=AXxGE00KoDc&feature=related
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gr8Dad
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So re-enacted screams do not match with the screams on the recording, from a phone, quite a distance from the actual occurance. LOL, you know this isn't NEW evidence, right? The sample was taken a month after the shooting, and the FBI has had the "undetermined" report for months.
Not really sure why you think this is harmful to Zimmerman. You have a possibility of two people screaming, and only one sample, which could not be matched.
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toomom
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The worst part of the whole thing was when George's father while listening to the tape of the screams and verified it was son. When asked if he ever heard George scream for his life before in that manner the father said yes...lol
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gr8Dad
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"When asked if he ever heard George scream for his life before in that manner the father said yes...lol"
You have never heard your kids scream, in pain, or in fear? The REALLY sad thing is that ONE Martin parents says the screaming is Trayvon, and one says it is not (followed by VERY clear body language, as he slumps in the interviewers chair, and the words on his face are those of a man who just realized his son may have been at fault), yet you supporters believe it is him. Now Zimmerman's parents say it is HIM, and you DON'T believe it. Talk about a double standard.
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toomom
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No I don't believe him for one second. He originally said the kid jumped out of the bushes and attacked him. Hours later Zimmerman says he heard the kid walk up on his left back shoulder.Yet later,he remembers coming face to face with the kid. Can't get the his story right
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toomom
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The question was....Have you ever heard that type of screaming from you son before....help me help me help me... The father said he had. From his almost 30 year old son.
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gr8Dad
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"He originally said the kid jumped out of the bushes and attacked him. Hours later Zimmerman says he heard the kid walk up on his left back shoulder.Yet later,he remembers coming face to face with the kid. Can't get the his story right"
See, this is one of those MINUTE details that has people saying his story is inconsistent. The night of the shooting, he said the kid came out of the bushes. While standing there in the daylight the next day, he said he heard the kid coming up behind him. SO why is it incomplehensible that he thought the kid came out of the bushes, and he heard him coming up behind him? And he did not say he heard FOOTSTEPS, he heard MARTIN as he said, "Why are you following me?" When he HEARD that, he turned around, and thus, was face to face with Martin. The three versions say the exact same thing.
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gr8Dad
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Perhaps something heavy fell on him or he was trapped for some reason. Not really sure what bearing this has on anything.
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Maury
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Dont know who was yelling - but it is chilling.
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gr8Dad
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Agreed, anyone yelling for help is chilling.
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Maury
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That sounded like a person terrified for their life. I cannot imagine such a terrifying scene.
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gr8Dad
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I also cannot see a scene in which Zimmerman, after having been punched in the face and hitting his head (how many times and the force is up in the air, but the marks indicate he WAS hit), managed to get ON TOP of Martin, get his gun out, and SHOOT him, without leaving a SINGLE defensive mark on Martin.
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Maury
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Things happen quick. Tough decision
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Maury
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Been in fights. I can't tell you how they happen. They just happen.
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gr8Dad
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Quick or not, he had a right to defend himself.
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Maury
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He did. Don't agree with the law. But if attacked, he did. That is the million dollar question.
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gr8Dad
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And, honestly, I asked myself the same question, DID Trayvon attack Zimmerman. And the physical evidence (mark on Trayvon's hand, injury to Zimmermans face) seems to indicate that an attack is exactly what happened. I considered that maybe Zimmerman tried to restrain him, but if that occured, Martin would have marks on his body from the restraint, even if it were something as simple as an abrasion where the hoodie caught on his neck, a bruise, SOMETHING indicating Zimmerman had initiated the contact. There simply was nothing to base such a theory on.
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Maury
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First- I think Zimmerman is an ass for doing what he did.
Second - I don't think he can be convicted under the law
Third- I think the bail set is absurd
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gr8Dad
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Under the law, one could make a case that until self defense is disproven, the law does not allow for even his ARREST.
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googledad
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See, this is one of those MINUTE details that has people saying his story is inconsistent. The night of the shooting, he said the kid came out of the bushes. While standing there in the daylight the next day, he said he heard the kid coming up behind him. SO why is it incomplehensible that he thought the kid came out of the bushes, and he heard him coming up behind him? And he did not say he heard FOOTSTEPS, he heard MARTIN as he said, "Why are you following me?" When he HEARD that, he turned around, and thus, was face to face with Martin. The three versions say the exact same thing.
>>>>>>>>> He said he lost sight of Trayvon then Trayvon approached him from behind as he was returning to his truck ( when he was not following him and simply looking for a street sign , one of the 3 streets in his neighborhood where he's lived for several years ) , Trayvon's girlfriend said Zimmerman was still following Trayvon .
So where'd Trayvon go ?
wesh.com/-/11788876/14363364/-/a3blbg/-/index.html
Picture 6 shows the crime scene , the blacked out section is Trayvon's body .
So why would George walk 30-40 feet from the T-intersection if he was looking for a street sign or an address , they're aren't any on the BACK of the buildings .
After all , he's walking BACK to his truck .
Where'd Trayvon go ?
Since Georgie's lawyer AGAIN admitted Zim and his wife LIED at the initial bail hearing will you FINALLY admit they did ?
Nice to see that George ADMITTED he was ordered to stay in his vehicle .
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googledad
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Zimmerman changes details, makes claims inconsistent with other evidence
6:22 p.m. EST, June 27, 2012|
By Rene Stutzman and Jeff Weiner, Orlando Sentinel
George Zimmerman talked to Sanford police a half-dozen times, going over what happened the night he killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. In the retelling, parts of his story changed. His account also does not line up with other evidence.
Here are some of the most prominent inconsistencies:
Where the confrontation happened
In his first recorded interview with police the night of the Feb. 26 shooting, Zimmerman said Trayvon popped out at him from "the bushes."
By the time he re-enacted the shooting less than 24 hours later, however, Zimmerman was much more precise, and the spot he pointed out had no bushes nearby.
As he walked police through what happened where, he said Trayvon approached him from his left rear and at a spot near the intersection of two sidewalks.
What Trayvon said
In that first taped interview with Sanford police Investigator Doris Singleton, Zimmerman said that when he and Trayvon came face to face on that sidewalk, Trayvon said, "What the [expletive][is] your problem, homey?"
During the next 24 hours, Zimmerman's version of what Trayvon said would change slightly, becoming less offensive with each telling.
In another interview later that night, he told Investigator Chris Serino that Trayvon said, "You got a problem?"
During the re-enactment the next afternoon, he told police that Trayvon yelled, "Yo, you got a problem?"
Also, a 16-year-old Miami girl told prosecutors she heard something different. She said she was on the phone with Trayvon at the time and heard him say, "What are you following me for?"
Dispatcher asked him to find Trayvon
After first spotting Trayvon and dialing a nonemergency police number, Zimmerman parked his truck while he talked with the dispatcher, asking that an officer come to the scene.
While still on the line, he drove a short distance down the street before parking again.
Why did he move his truck?
During the re-enactment the day after the shooting, Zimmerman told detectives it was because he had lost sight of the 17-year-old, and the dispatcher asked him to find him.
A review of Zimmerman's recorded call with the dispatcher, though, shows there was no such request.
Did he follow Trayvon?
In his call to police before the shooting, Zimmerman can be heard huffing and puffing as if he had been running or walking fast.
"Are you following him?" the dispatcher asked.
"Yeah," Zimmerman answered.
"OK, we don't need you to do that," the dispatcher said.
"OK," Zimmerman said.
But after the shooting, he offered a different reason for getting out of his truck. Serino pressed him for an explanation three days later.
I was "just going in the same direction he was," Zimmerman said. He had exited his truck, he said, to get a street address for authorities.
"Did you pursue the kid? Did you want to catch him?" Serino asked.
"No," said Zimmerman.
Serino challenged him further: "How do you not know the three streets in your neighborhood [where] you've been living for three years?"
Zimmerman replied that he had a bad memory and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Other inconsistencies
Investigators also pointed out to Zimmerman in a Feb. 29 interrogation several other discrepancies, but he did not clear them up:
•He had said that during their struggle, Trayvon covered Zimmerman's nose and mouth with his hands, but in a recorded 911 call from a neighbor in which someone can be heard screaming for help, none of the cries sound muffled.
•Zimmerman had injuries but not ones that matched the severity of the attack he described, according to Serino. If Trayvon had been banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer should have had skull fractures, not just cuts, Serino said.
•There were no defensive wounds on Zimmerman's hands and just one small scrape on a finger of Trayvon's left hand, Serino said — little evidence of life-and-death struggle.
articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-27/news/os-george-zimmerman-inconsistencies-20120626_1_shooting-dispatcher-police
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gr8Dad
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"So why would George walk 30-40 feet from the T-intersection if he was looking for a street sign or an address"
Because Trayvon spoke to him and he turned and they approached each other, closing the distance. Funny thing is, if Trayvon was "just trying to get home", why was HE still 30 or 40 feet from the "T"? Why was he not WAAAAY down the path, as that was where he HOME was, at the other END of the path?
"Trayvon's girlfriend said Zimmerman was still following Trayvon ."
Nope, sorry, her testimony was that Trayvon had LOST Zimmerman.
"Since Georgie's lawyer AGAIN admitted Zim and his wife LIED at the initial bail hearing will you FINALLY admit they did ?"
I think they were confused and rightfully SCARED, and were doing what they had to do to prepare for the worst. Why should they have HAD to be scared, I mean why were they not secure in that the law enforcement in the area would protect them? Oh yeah, because they DIDN'T.
"Nice to see that George ADMITTED he was ordered to stay in his vehicle ."
Yes, butr it was AFTER he was OUT of his vehicle.
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googledad
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Under the law, one could make a case that until self defense is disproven, the law does not allow for even his ARREST.
>>>>>>>>> UNTRUE .
Florida’s Stand Your Ground law provides potential immunity from prosecution for an accused who can establish (by appropriate legal procedures) that his or her actions fell within the purview of the statute. To understand how “Stand Your Ground” immunity works, one has to understand the nature of a self-defense claim and how a such a claim is typically raised in a criminal proceeding.
Self-defense is a type of affirmative defense that operates to avoid (or cancel) the legal effect of a violent act (such as a homicide), which would ordinarily subject the accused to criminal liability. In a self-defense claim, the defendant admits the truth of the essential act (i.e. that he or she committed a homicide or other violence against a person), but justifies the act by claiming that it was necessary to save him- or herself from death, great bodily harm, or other unlawful uses of force. In the context of a homicide, a defendant claiming self-defense essentially says: “Yes, I killed. But I did not murder (commit an unlawful killing) because, under the facts and circumstances, my acts were legally justifiable.” Under common law and in most criminal cases today, the question of justifiable self-defense is a factual question for the jury to resolve at trial. The jury is the “fact-finder.” They decide whether the act was sufficiently justified so as to insulate the accused from criminal liability and punishment.
Here again, Florida’s Stand Your Ground Law makes another significant change from the common law. Under Section 776.032, Florida Statutes, a person who uses force as permitted in Section 776.012 or Section 776.013 “is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action” for the use of such force (with certain limited exceptions). Note the word “immune.” This means that, if the accused can factually establish pre-trial that his or her use of deadly force occurred under the circumstances outlined in Section 776.012 or Section 776.013, the State of Florida is legally and procedurally barred from further prosecution in the matter. In the event that a civil action is brought against the person who used qualifying deadly force, a court must award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred in the defense of the case.
The procedures for asserting prosecutorial immunity under the “Stand Your Ground” law are outlined in Peterson v. State, 983 So. 2d 27, 29 (Fla. 1st DCA 2008), a Florida First District Court of Appeal decision. The Petersen decision definitively established that Section 776.032 was created by the Florida Legislature to establish a “true immunity” and not merely an affirmative defense. The Court stated that, when immunity under the law is properly raised by a defendant, the trial court (at a hearing) must decide the matter by confronting and weighing only factual disputes. Petersen held that a defendant may raise the question of statutory immunity pre-trial and, when such claim is raised, the trial court must determine whether the defendant has shown by a preponderance of the evidence that immunity attaches. Unlike a motion to dismiss, the trial court may not deny a motion for immunity simply because factual disputes exist.
NOTE: In Dennis v. State, 51 So. 3d 456, 460 (Fla. 2010), the Florida Supreme Court adopted the First District decision in Petersen, resolving a previous conflict that existed between the First and Fourth District Courts of Appeal. Petersen is now binding law on all Florida courts.
Thus, under the procedures outlined in Petersen, prosecutorial immunity does not attach under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law by way of mere factual assertion. The issue is raised pre-trial through the filing of a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and/or Dismissal. To obtain such a declaration by the trial court, a hearing is held where the defendant must demonstrate by a preponderance of the evidence his or her qualifications for immunity. This essentially reverses the burden of proof traditionally at play in a criminal case. The defense presents the evidence, shows that the statutory prerequisites have been met, and requests that the court grant the motion and appropriate relief. If the Motion is granted, the defense then files a Motion to Dismiss, as there is no longer a legal basis to proceed with the prosecution. The Motions for immunity and dismissal are frequently consolidated into a single filing.
With regard to the Trayvon Martin case, the notion that Florida’s Stand Your Ground law prohibited the prosecution of George Zimmerman is fundamentally false. “Stand Your Ground” in no way prevents a prosecution from being initiated against an accused. Prior to forming Hussein & Webber, P.L., I served as an Assistant Public Defender in the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit of Florida, the circuit governing Sanford, Florida. During that time, the State Attorney’s Office for the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit routinely prosecuted defendants in the face of “Stand Your Ground” Motions. In those cases, the prosecutor would file charges, and, at an appropriate stage, defense counsel would file a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal [Click Here for an Example]. The matter was then heard at an evidentiary hearing, where the defense had to show its entitlement to immunity by a preponderance of the evidence. If successful, immunity was granted and the case dismissed. If unsuccessful, the prosecution resumed and the case resolved by way of plea or trial.
Nothing about the Trayvon Martin case prevents these procedures from being followed. Now that the State has decided to pursue charges, George Zimmerman, acting through his attorneys, may file a Motion for Declaration of Immunity and Dismissal. This will occur, if at all, once the parties are satisfied that they have sufficient discovery to conduct an evidentiary hearing. If the Motion succeeds, the case will be dismissed. If the Motion fails, the case will likely proceed to trial, where the application of self-defense principles under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law will be decided by a jury.
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gr8Dad
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This is ONE opinion of the law, lets look at the ACTUAL law, shall we?
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
SO if you use lethal force, you are "immune" from "criminal prosecution", and "criminal prosecution" includes ARREST.
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gr8Dad
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SO you REALLY think a jury is going to buy, "Well, he LIED during the interogation, he said there was a BUSH there, but when he went back in the daytime, there was NO BUSH!" or "He didn't know the EXACT words spoken to him during this stressful and confusing time right before he was punched in the face and his head was hit on the ground."? Really? That is the BEST you can come up with? George is gonna walk for SURE if that is all they got to convict him on.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
Edited by gr8Dad (07/02/12 08:18 AM)
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googledad
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Because Trayvon spoke to him and he turned and they approached each other, closing the distance.
>>>>>>>>>> No , Trayvon jumped out of the bushes .
Funny thing is, if Trayvon was "just trying to get home", why was HE still 30 or 40 feet from the "T"?
>>>>>>>>>> The " T " is the back path to where he was staying . He was 30+ feet DOWN the path on the WAY HOME . His father said they were on the back porch .
Why was he not WAAAAY down the path, as that was where he HOME was, at the other END of the path?
>>>>>>>>>> In all of a minute ? Maybe because he assumed he lost his stalker and was safe in a PUBLIC AREA . How did George LOSE sight of Trayvon 30' down the T intersection ?
Nope, sorry, her testimony was that Trayvon had LOST Zimmerman.
>>>>>>>>>>> When did she testify ?
Trayvon Martin's girlfriend told a prosecutor that minutes before the Florida teen was shot, he sounded “scared” on the phone and told someone to “get off, get off.”
The girl, whose name has not been released, said the 17-year-old had told her he was being tailed by a “white man” — presumably neighborhood watchman George Zimmmerman.
“He was breathing hard. [His] voice kinda changed. I know he was scared. [His] voice was getting low,” the girl said in the taped April 2 interview about the Feb. 26 shooting.
She said she heard Martin say, “Why you following me for?” and a man respond, “What you doing around here?”
There was silence and then she heard Martin say, “Get off” at least twice before the call ended.
>>>>>>>>>> Why would he say " get off " if he was pounding Zimmerman's head into the pavement ?
I think they were confused and rightfully SCARED, and were doing what they had to do to prepare for the worst. Why should they have HAD to be scared, I mean why were they not secure in that the law enforcement in the area would protect them? Oh yeah, because they DIDN'T.
>>>>>>>>> Protect them from WHAT ? BTW , being " scared " isn't an affirmative defense for PERJURY .
"Nice to see that George ADMITTED he was ordered to stay in his vehicle ."
Yes, butr it was AFTER he was OUT of his vehicle.
>>>>>>>>>> No , one the recorded reenactment .
He admits the officer orderecd him to stay in his vehicle .
SO WHERE WAS TRAYVON HIDING ?
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googledad
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SO if you use lethal force, you are "immune" from "criminal prosecution", and "criminal prosecution" includes ARREST.
>>>>>>>>> I'll take the attorney's word over yours .
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googledad
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SO you REALLY think a jury is going to buy, "Well, he LIED during the interogation, he said there was a BUSH there, but when he went back in the daytime, there was NO BUSH!"
>>>>>>>>> Yeah , it's called CREDIBILITY .
or "He didn't know the EXACT words spoken to him during this stressful and confusing time right before he was punched in the face and his head was hit on the ground."?
>>>>>>>>>> Those 25 damaging blows plus having his head slammed into concrete ? Sure , the " damage " matches that TALL TALE .
Really? That is the BEST you can come up with? George is gonna walk for SURE if that is all they got to convict him on.
>>>>>>>>> Good luck with that .
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googledad
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[quote]SO if you use lethal force, you are "immune" from "criminal prosecution", and "criminal prosecution" includes ARREST.
>>>>>>>>> I'll take the attorney's word over yours . [/quote]
>>>>>>>>>> Could you ACTUALLY think for a minute ? If what you were stating is true , why wouldn't ANYONE who killed someone claim SYG ? DUH , that's right , there has to be a HEARING to see if SYG applies .
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googledad
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And you're WRONG again .
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
That would be from the Florida Supreme Court .
floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2010/sc09-941.pdf
Are they wrong too ?
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gr8Dad
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What?!? It CLEARLY states, "but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful." That night, they did not have probable cause that the force was unlawful. Yet SOMEHOW, the cops are painted as inept for NOT arresting him and holding him.
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googledad
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Do you have ADHD ? YOU said george shouldn't have been arrested and SYG prevents criminal charges . Both are INCORRECT .
What is it with you always trying to change the subject ?
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gr8Dad
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Yeah, I "changed the subject" by commenting on something YOU posted and I even QUOTED it. YOU were talking about the LAW, I stated as the LAW does, that they cannot ARREST him unless there is probable cause that the shooting or death was UNLAWFUL.
You are just losing your mind.
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googledad
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[quote]Yeah, I "changed the subject" by commenting on something YOU posted and I even QUOTED it. YOU were talking about the LAW, I stated as the LAW does, that they cannot ARREST him unless there is probable cause that the shooting or death was UNLAWFUL.
>>>>>>>> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID .
You are just losing your mind. [/quote]
>>>>>>>>>> At least I can read ,
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Loc: Third rock from the sun
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First- I think Zimmerman is an ass for doing what he did.
---> I disagree. Every year, hundreds of thousands of private citizens go beyond calling 911 and in doing so, drunk drivers are taken off the road, houses aren't robbed, rapes aren't committed, innocence isn't lost.
---> One thing that bothers me, is that Martin is getting a 'pass'. Yes, I know that he is dead, but what about his culpability? So okay fine...he gets a 'pass' for not calling the police because he's black and because he's 17 (which is think is bullsh*t), but what about him attacking Zimmerman? Seems to me that if Martin had NOT attacked Zimmerman, then Martin would be alive.
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID ."
Yes, it is, its easy, the posts are right above these.
">>>>>>>>>> At least I can read ,"
Apparently NOT...
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googledad
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>>>>>>> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID ."
Yes, it is, its easy, the posts are right above these.
">>>>>>>>>> At least I can read ,"
Apparently NOT...
>>>>>>>>> Why are you going to make me PROVE you wrong ?
Under the law, one could make a case that until self defense is disproven, the law does not allow for even his ARREST.
Yeah, I "changed the subject" by commenting on something YOU posted and I even QUOTED it. YOU were talking about the LAW, I stated as the LAW does, that they cannot ARREST him unless there is probable cause that the shooting or death was UNLAWFUL.
>>>>>>>>>> These are not the same things .
Apparently NOT...
>>>>> Apparently I'm RIGHT .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>>> These are not the same things ."
Really? So, "until self defense is disproven, the law does not allow for even his ARREST" and "they cannot ARREST him unless there is probable cause that the shooting or death was UNLAWFUL" are not the same thing? Yes, they are.
If they can DISPROVE self defense, then it was UNLAWFUL. Until they can PROVE it unlawful, they cannot arrest him. Its BASIC ENGLISH!
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googledad
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Really? So, "until self defense is disproven, the law does not allow for even his ARREST" and "they cannot ARREST him unless there is probable cause that the shooting or death was UNLAWFUL" are not the same thing? Yes, they are.
>>>>>>>>>> No .
Probable cause isn't PROOF . It's probable cause .
If they can DISPROVE self defense, then it was UNLAWFUL.
>>>>>>>>> Nope . Just probable cause .
Until they can PROVE it unlawful, they cannot arrest him.
>>>>>>>>> Probable cause ISN'T proof .
Its BASIC ENGLISH!
>>>>>>>>> On Bizarro world .
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gr8Dad
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Okay, you are just an [censored]. If they don't even have PROBABLE CAUSE< then they DON'T have PROOF, jackass! They had NONE of that the night of the shooting, so they COULDN'T arrest him.
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googledad
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[quote]Okay, you are just an [censored]. If they don't even have PROBABLE CAUSE< then they DON'T have PROOF, jackass! They had NONE of that the night of the shooting, so they COULDN'T arrest him. [/quote]
>>>>>>>>>> Nice to know the state already PROVED their case and Zimmerman is guilty of murder 2 . Why are you defensding him ?
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
Posts: 2003
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Should George Zimmerman be convicted of second-degree murder in the shooting of Trayvon Martin?
A.36.35% Yes
B.63.65% No
Source- usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/04/12/should-george-zimmerman-be-convicted-of-second-degree-murder
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ssmom79
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It's good to know that other people are recongnizing that murder 2 is wrong. It will be up to a jury in the end. But I agree murder 2 is just all wrong for this. I'm still feeling manslaughter. I feel empathy for GZ. He has to live with that night forever. And I don't think anyone believe he set out to do anyone harm.
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toomom
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Posts: 141
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Murder 2 is the correct charge: Florida state law defines second-degree murder as a killing that "evinces a depraved mind regardless of human life" but "without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual."
I don't belive he set out to kill the kid that night. However, one is responsible for their actions, under the law. He had a good idea that when he failed to follow directions by the 911 dispatch person (he followed for another minute AFTER he was told not to) with a loaded gun, in the dark that someone might be harmed. 2nd degree murder.
if something you do causes someone else to die, or if you do something stupid (or fail to do something smart) that common sense would tell you would create dangerous situation and could cause someone to die and someone does die.
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gr8Dad
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"However, one is responsible for their actions"
So Trayvon is responsible for his attack?
"He had a good idea that when he failed to follow directions by the 911 dispatch person (he followed for another minute AFTER he was told not to) with a loaded gun, in the dark that someone might be harmed."
How could he possibly know he would be attacked by Martin?
"if something you do causes someone else to die, or if you do something stupid (or fail to do something smart) that common sense would tell you would create dangerous situation and could cause someone to die and someone does die."
You mean like coming up behind someone and punching them in the face? See, THAT is where you lose all credibility. Apparently you have CONVICTED Zimmerman because he committed the COMPLETELY LEGAL ACT of getting out of his car...yet you have excused Trayvon for ATTACKING him.
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googledad
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So Trayvon is responsible for his attack?
>>>>>>>>> That's IF Trayvon attacked .Where'd he hide ? How come George's injuries aren't more serious after being punched 25 times and having his head repeatedly slammed into concrete ? Who was screaming ?
How could he possibly know he would be attacked by Martin?
>>>>>>>>>> He should know what to do as a " neighborhood watch captain " .
You mean like coming up behind someone and punching them in the face? See, THAT is where you lose all credibility. Apparently you have CONVICTED Zimmerman because he committed the COMPLETELY LEGAL ACT of getting out of his car...yet you have excused Trayvon for ATTACKING him.
>>>>>>>> You're confusing fact with hypothesis .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>> That's IF Trayvon attacked ."
The PROSECUTION is not even standing by the idea that Trayvon DIDN'T attack Zimmerman. So I admitted the Zimmerman's lied, lets see if YOU have the same courage to admit YOU were wrong as well.
"How come George's injuries aren't more serious after being punched 25 times and having his head repeatedly slammed into concrete ?"
Not sure, maybe the kid was just as good at "attacking" as he was at WINNING a fight, huh?
">>>>>>>>>> He should know what to do as a " neighborhood watch captain " ."
He DID, you are attacked, you DEFEND yourself.
">>>>>>>> You're confusing fact with hypothesis ."
Well, YOUR hypothesis has ASOLUTELY no rationale or reason.
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googledad
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The PROSECUTION is not even standing by the idea that Trayvon DIDN'T attack Zimmerman.
>>>>>>>>> Incorrect .
So I admitted the Zimmerman's lied, lets see if YOU have the same courage to admit YOU were wrong as well.
>>>>>>>>>> You haven't admitted anything .
Not sure, maybe the kid was just as good at "attacking" as he was at WINNING a fight, huh?
>>>>>>>>> Or George is still lying . After all , a guy scared enough to lie about his finanaces at a bail hearing might just be scared enough to lie about what happened after shooting an unarmed kid .
He DID, you are attacked, you DEFEND yourself.
>>>>>>>>>>> That would be to NOT leave your vehicle and follow someone . CLEAR ?
Well, YOUR hypothesis has ASOLUTELY no rationale or reason.
>>>>>>>>> As opposed to the one where the thug with 3 school suspensions ran , hid then ambushed an older and heavier man while talking on the phone with his girlfriend .
So why was Trayvon saying " get off " .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>>> You haven't admitted anything ."
Are you claiming I DIDN'T say that yes, they lied about the money, that they were scared and the courts were railroading them, etc etc? See, I know I did, but you're not worth the time to look it up. Obviously, you DON'T have any courage, LOL.
">>>>>>>>> Or George is still lying . After all , a guy scared enough to lie about his finanaces at a bail hearing might just be scared enough to lie about what happened after shooting an unarmed kid ."
You keep bringing up that he lied in the bail hearing and TECHNICALLY he didn't correct his WIFE who was lying, but lets agree that they lied. And you want to hold that against them in a negative light, right? Okay, lets do that. And a measure of a person's character is the GOOD things they do, as balanced against the BAD things they do. So does Zimmerman get any credit for REPEATEDLY turning himself in as asked, the MULTIPLE statements he gave the voluntary re-enactment, the agreement to ALL of the terms of the bail, the constant reporting in, and all the OTHER cooperation he has offered, or does that go out the window because of ONE incident of poor judgement with the bail? If so, I hope YOU don't make ONE mistake, cause that would undo ALL of the good things you have ever done.
">>>>>>>>>>> That would be to NOT leave your vehicle and follow someone . CLEAR ?"
Actually, the manual (here is the link [censored]://[censored].sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf ) staes NO such thing. Matter of FACT, it doesn't even say you shouldn't carry a GUN.
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gr8Dad
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Of course, all of the neighborhood watch program crap is MOOT, since Zimmerman was NOT out on NW business, he was going to the store.
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googledad
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Are you claiming I DIDN'T say that yes, they lied about the money, that they were scared and the courts were railroading them, etc etc?
>>>>>>>> No , that's defending their actions .
You keep bringing up that he lied in the bail hearing and TECHNICALLY he didn't correct his WIFE who was lying, but lets agree that they lied. And you want to hold that against them in a negative light, right? Okay, lets do that. And a measure of a person's character is the GOOD things they do, as balanced against the BAD things they do. So does Zimmerman get any credit for REPEATEDLY turning himself in as asked, the MULTIPLE statements he gave the voluntary re-enactment, the agreement to ALL of the terms of the bail, the constant reporting in, and all the OTHER cooperation he has offered, or does that go out the window because of ONE incident of poor judgement with the bail? If so, I hope YOU don't make ONE mistake, cause that would undo ALL of the good things you have ever done.
>>>>>>>>>> Except for the part where he shot an unarmed kid and lied about it .
Actually, the manual (here is the link [censored]://[censored].sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf ) staes NO such thing. Matter of FACT, it doesn't even say you shouldn't carry a GUN.
>>>>>>>>>>> WRONG .
Remember always that your
responsibility is to report crime. Do
not take any risks to prevent a
crime or try to make an arrest.
The responsibility for
apprehending criminals belongs
to the police department.
What you will
not do is get physically involved with
any activity you report or
apprehension of any suspicious
persons. This is the job of the law
enforcement agency.
>>>>>>>>> That would be getting PHYSICALLY INVOLVED .
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googledad
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Of course, all of the neighborhood watch program crap is MOOT, since Zimmerman was NOT out on NW business, he was going to the store.
>>>>>>>>>> By being parked at the clubhouse ?
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>>> Except for the part where he shot an unarmed kid and lied about it ."
Wow, so I guess only YOU are allowed to used a HYPOTHESIS as FACT, huh?
">>>>>>>>> That would be getting PHYSICALLY INVOLVED ."
So getting out of your CAR is getting physically involved? What if you are WALKING? Do you need to PRETEND you are in a car and sit on the sidewalk and wait for police? Again, you were WRONG< it does NOT say stay in your car, it does NOT say you cannot carry a GUN. You were wrong, I proved it, shut the fvck up and ADMIT it, it happens to the BEST of us.
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
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">>>>>>>>>> By being parked at the clubhouse ?"
No, he parked by the clubhouse when he saw Martin...on his way to the store.
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googledad
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Wow, so I guess only YOU are allowed to used a HYPOTHESIS as FACT, huh?
>>>>>>>>>> Isn't that what you've been doing ?
So getting out of your CAR is getting physically involved? What if you are WALKING? Do you need to PRETEND you are in a car and sit on the sidewalk and wait for police? Again, you were WRONG< it does NOT say stay in your car, it does NOT say you cannot carry a GUN. You were wrong, I proved it, shut the fvck up and ADMIT it, it happens to the BEST of us.
>>>>>>>>> Yes , FOLLOWING someone is getting physically involved .
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googledad
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No, he parked by the clubhouse when he saw Martin...on his way to the store.
>>>>>>>>>>> His story . As we all know , he lies .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>>> Isn't that what you've been doing ?"
And you called me out for it. Doesn't that mean YOU can't do it either? Oh, wait, your a DEMOCRAT< I forgot, lol, you are pathetic.
">>>>>>>>> Yes , FOLLOWING someone is getting physically involved ."
He wasn't following him, he was attempting to keep an eye on him.
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>>>> His story . As we all know , he lies ."
Ah, so EVERYTHING Zimmerman says is a lie? Well, then there should be no court case, because Zimmerman says he shot Martin, and YOU have said he lies, so I guess he DIDN'T shoot Martin, right?
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googledad
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Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous
.
>>>>>>>>>> From the National Sheriffs' Association neighborhood watch handbook .
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googledad
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[quote]">>>>>>>>>>> His story . As we all know , he lies ."
Ah, so EVERYTHING Zimmerman says is a lie? Well, then there should be no court case, because Zimmerman says he shot Martin, and YOU have said he lies, so I guess he DIDN'T shoot Martin, right? [/quote]
>>>>>>>>>> You're an idiot .
He lied about the money . He lied about what happened that night ,
End of story .
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gr8Dad
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Shame that didn't make it into the one for Twin Retreat, huh? Then you might have a case. But since it DIDN'T, you don't.
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googledad
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He wasn't following him, he was attempting to keep an eye on him.
>>>>>>>>> That would be following him . Plus saying he was following him and then LYING by saying he was only looking for an address .
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gr8Dad
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But, you see, you cannot PROVE that he lied about what happened that night, without a reasonable doubt. Just because YOU don't think his injuries were bad enough is not proof that he lied. Because you don't think he should have gotten out of his car, doesn't mean he lied. You have to provide CONCRETE EVIDENCE to support your theory, or he walks, and THAT is the end of the story.
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googledad
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[quote]Shame that didn't make it into the one for Twin Retreat, huh? Then you might have a case. But since it DIDN'T, you don't. [/quote]
>>>>>>>>> Then Georgie didn't have a neighborhood watch program which would make him a vigilante .
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gr8Dad
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He was looking for an address when he was going BACK to his truck. When he got out of his truck, he was trying to keep an eye on a person doing something suspicious.
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googledad
Carpal \'Tunnel
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But, you see, you cannot PROVE that he lied about what happened that night, without a reasonable doubt.
>>>>>>>> There's plenty of reasonable doubt . His demeanor , " injuries " and story don't add up .
Just because YOU don't think his injuries were bad enough is not proof that he lied.
>>>>>>>>>> But a scratch on Trayvon's left knuckle proves he's telling the truth ? You're RIDICULOUS .
Because you don't think he should have gotten out of his car, doesn't mean he lied.
>>>>>>>>> But Trayvon not running all the way home proves George is telling the truth ? YOU'RE RIDICULOUS .
You have to provide CONCRETE EVIDENCE to support your theory, or he walks, and THAT is the end of the story.
>>>>>>>>>> No , the prosecutor does . 4 weeks in jail and counting for Georgie for lying to a judge .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>> Then Georgie didn't have a neighborhood watch program which would make him a vigilante"
LOL, again, you are pathetic, because the manual from Twin Retreat doesn't have EVERY aspect of EVERY watch program across the nation YOU have deemed it invalid? LMAO, you are really grasping there, dude.
Oh, and a "vigilante" is, per dictionary.com, "any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime". Zimmerman was defending himself from an ATTACK. Now, if you have EVIDENCE that an attack didn't happen, feel free to present it, but you have none, because there IS no evidence that an attack by Martin did not occur.
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googledad
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LOL, again, you are pathetic, because the manual from Twin Retreat doesn't have EVERY aspect of EVERY watch program across the nation YOU have deemed it invalid? LMAO, you are really grasping there, dude.
>>>>>>>> Yup , cuz NOT doing those things can result in arrest or criminal fines . The homeowners association MAY be finiancially liable as it is .
Oh, and a "vigilante" is, per dictionary.com, "any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime". Zimmerman was defending himself from an ATTACK.
>>>>>>>> Or initiating one .
Now, if you have EVIDENCE that an attack didn't happen, feel free to present it, but you have none, because there IS no evidence that an attack by Martin did not occur.
>>>>>>>>>> There's evidence a confrontation occured , not WHO started it .
We do know one participant has a history of violence and was armed . And he lies when conveniant .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>> There's plenty of reasonable doubt . His demeanor , " injuries " and story don't add up ."
Again, YOUR opinion, no facts presented.
">>>>>>>>>> But a scratch on Trayvon's left knuckle proves he's telling the truth ?"
It is not, of itself, proof, but it is part of the puzzle. Lets try something simple. Would you agree that there WAS an altercation? Would you agree that SOMEONE attacked SOMEONE that night? You would HAVE to, as there are witnesses to the fact that there was an altercation. And at least ONE witness saw one person on top of the other.
So lets look at the evidence to see if we can determine WHO was on the ground and who was on top. Lets see, Martin? The ONLY mark on him is on his finger. Zimmerman? DOCUMENTED injuries to his face and head, NO marks on his hands. So if MArtin was on the bottom, Zimmerman manged to injure Martin's FINGER with an abrasion, apparently using his FACE and the back of his HEAD to do so. If Zimmerman was on the bottom, Martin injured his finger while hitting Zimmerman.
So which sounds MORE logical? And I REALLY wanna hear you SAY it, if you believe the FIRST possibility.
">>>>>>>>> But Trayvon not running all the way home proves George is telling the truth ?"
Again, not in and of itself, but again, it is a piece of the puzzle.
See, you are hanging your theory one disproving ONE or TWO pieces of the puzzle, but they do not stand ALONE, they are a SERIES of events and evidence that can only come to ONE conclusion, that Martin wanted to show the big fat white guy how tough he was, and did so by attacking him. It is not a BLACK thing, it is not a WHITE thing, it is a 17 year old filled with testosterone thing, and he made a bad choice by bringing a fist to a gunfight.
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>> Or initiating one ."
So Zimmerman INITIATED contact leaving on a small abrasion on Martin's FINGER?!? Really? What did he do, sneak up behind him and SNIP him on the knuckle?
And PLEASE do not waste your time claiming he VERBALLY initiated it, becase under the law, I can stand in front of you and call you the son of a motherless GOAT, and when you hit me, YOU broke the law and go to jail.
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googledad
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Again, YOUR opinion, no facts presented.
>>>>>>>> Why bother , you ignore any facts that don't jibe with George's story .
It is not, of itself, proof, but it is part of the puzzle.
>>>>>>>>>>> A scratch he could have just as easily received earlier .
Would you agree that there WAS an altercation?
>>>>>>>>>>>> DUH , I've said that from the beginning .
Would you agree that SOMEONE attacked SOMEONE that night?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup .
So lets look at the evidence to see if we can determine WHO was on the ground and who was on top. Lets see, Martin? The ONLY mark on him is on his finger. Zimmerman? DOCUMENTED injuries to his face and head, NO marks on his hands. So if MArtin was on the bottom, Zimmerman manged to injure Martin's FINGER with an abrasion, apparently using his FACE and the back of his HEAD to do so. If Zimmerman was on the bottom, Martin injured his finger while hitting Zimmerman.
>>>>>>>>>>> Hahahahaha . The " confrontation lasted at least a minute . They could have been rolling arond on the ground the whole time .
Again, not in and of itself, but again, it is a piece of the puzzle.
>>>>>>> As far as we know George was chasing after Trayvon with gun drawn .
See, you are hanging your theory one disproving ONE or TWO pieces of the puzzle, but they do not stand ALONE, they are a SERIES of events and evidence that can only come to ONE conclusion, that Martin wanted to show the big fat white guy how tough he was, and did so by attacking him. It is not a BLACK thing, it is not a WHITE thing, it is a 17 year old filled with testosterone thing, and he made a bad choice by bringing a fist to a gunfight.
>>>>>>>>> Trayvon , 5'11" 158 lbs . George 5'8" 190-200 lbs .
The kid ran away and hid . The ADULT was armed .
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googledad
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So Zimmerman INITIATED contact leaving on a small abrasion on Martin's FINGER?!? Really? What did he do, sneak up behind him and SNIP him on the knuckle?
>>>>>>>>> Where are George's defensive wounds ? After all , he was able to grab his gun , whyy not block the estimated 25 punches ? Why not scratch Trayvon somewwhere ?
And PLEASE do not waste your time claiming he VERBALLY initiated it, becase under the law, I can stand in front of you and call you the son of a motherless GOAT, and when you hit me, YOU broke the law and go to jail.
>>>>>>>> Try removing your head from your ass .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>> Why bother , you ignore any facts that don't jibe with George's story ."
No I haven't, because you haven't PRESENTED any.
">>>>>>>>>>> A scratch he could have just as easily received earlier ."
Yep, thats why it doesn't stand alone.
">>>>>>>>>>> Hahahahaha . The " confrontation lasted at least a minute . They could have been rolling arond on the ground the whole time ."
Yep, but only ONE of them has definite injuries from the altercation, and that is Zimmerman.
">>>>>>> As far as we know George was chasing after Trayvon with gun drawn ."
We know NO SUCH THING. There is ZERO evidence that Zimmerman had the gun draw. But OKAY, lets examine that theory. Zimmerman approaches, per your theory, Martin, with his GUN DRAWN. And the ONLY thing he says to Zimmerman, per the girlfriend, is "Why are you following me"? Sounds fishy, but okay, lets assume that was the case. Martin is SUPER COOL< he says NOTHING about the gun to the girlfriend. So why did he punch Zimmerman in the face? What kind of MORON, when facing a person with a GUN, runs AT them and punches them? And what kind of FOOL< holding a GUN on someone, allows them to run up and punch them in the face? But lets go into the ABSURD, and assume that DID happen.
Well, guess what, if I have a gun on you, and you run AT me...you gonna DIE.
">>>>>>>>> Trayvon , 5'11" 158 lbs . George 5'8" 190-200 lbs ."
Martin 17, former football player. Zimmerman, out of shape and 28. I can counter ANYTHING you have, because you have NOTHING.
"The kid ran away and hid . The ADULT was armed ."
The kid punched the adult in the face and tried to take the gun.
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>> Where are George's defensive wounds ? After all , he was able to grab his gun , whyy not block the estimated 25 punches ? Why not scratch Trayvon somewwhere ?"
I have seen the "25 punches" thing thrown around, do you have a source for that? I have searched, can't find anything. And when i say source, I mean something OFFICIAL, not a reporter saying he said that, I mean an ACTUAL statement.
">>>>>>>> Try removing your head from your ass ."
Try learning the LAW. I can say WHATEVER I want to you, as long as it is not a THREAT, and you can do NOTHING physical to me without breaking the law.
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googledad
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No I haven't, because you haven't PRESENTED any.
>>>>>>>>> Of course I have . Why did Trayvon's girlfriend say Trayvon said " get off , get off " if Trayvon was attacking Zim ?
Yep, thats why it doesn't stand alone.
>>>>>>>>>> You use it as proof . But a lack of serious injuries on Zim proves nothing , RIGHT ?
Yep, but only ONE of them has definite injuries from the altercation, and that is Zimmerman.
>>>>>>>>>> I forgot , only people who start fights DON'T get injuries .
We know NO SUCH THING. There is ZERO evidence that Zimmerman had the gun draw.
>>>>>>>>> Actually , we KNOW next to nothing about the minute after George hung up the phone .
But OKAY, lets examine that theory. Zimmerman approaches, per your theory, Martin, with his GUN DRAWN. And the ONLY thing he says to Zimmerman, per the girlfriend, is "Why are you following me"? Sounds fishy, but okay, lets assume that was the case. Martin is SUPER COOL< he says NOTHING about the gun to the girlfriend.
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it was out of sight .
Why did Trayvon supposedly say " get off , get off " ?
So why did he punch Zimmerman in the face?
>>>>>>>>> There's is no evidence he was punched in the face .
Martin 17, former football player. Zimmerman, out of shape and 28. I can counter ANYTHING you have, because you have NOTHING.
>>>>>>>>> In your deranged opinion .
The kid punched the adult in the face and tried to take the gun.
>>>>>>>>>> Based on what evidence ?
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googledad
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I have seen the "25 punches" thing thrown around, do you have a source for that? I have searched, can't find anything. And when i say source, I mean something OFFICIAL, not a reporter saying he said that, I mean an ACTUAL statement.
>>>>>>>> It's in the final interview he had with Det Serino .
washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/zimmerman-caught-on-tape-his-injuries-and-trayvon-martins-motivation/2012/06/27/gJQARtNZ6V_blog.html
click on the blue final interview icon .
Try learning the LAW.
>>>>>>>>>>> From you that's priceless . You know the guy who get's the Declaration of Independence confused with the Constitution .
I can say WHATEVER I want to you, as long as it is not a THREAT, and you can do NOTHING physical to me without breaking the law.
>>>>>>>> So why'd George attack Trayvon ?
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>> Of course I have . Why did Trayvon's girlfriend say Trayvon said " get off , get off " if Trayvon was attacking Zim ?"
She only stated that when interviewed LATER by Crump, Martin's parents attorney. And it is eyewitness testimony, which is JUST as reliable as the eyewitness testimony SUPPORTING Zimmerman. Now, if you want to use THAT as evidence, great, you use it ALL. You do not get to cherry pick which witnesses you want to believe.
">>>>>>>>>> You use it as proof . But a lack of serious injuries on Zim proves nothing , RIGHT ?"
Broken nose is not really a lack of serious injuries.
">>>>>>>>>> Maybe it was out of sight ."
Okay, he was out of sight (lets ignore your FIRST claim that there was NOWHERE for Martin hide, thus he COULDN'T have been hidden, LMAO, because the ONLY way to use YOUR ideas is to ignore some piece of evidence). Why would he speak to Zimmerman if he was out of SIGHT?
">>>>>>>>> There's is no evidence he was punched in the face ."
Okay, so where did the injury to Zimmerman's face come from?
">>>>>>>>>> Based on what evidence ?"
The injuries to Zimmerman's face and the abrasion to Martin's hand.
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gr8Dad
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LOL< you need to learn how to READ.
">>>>>>>> It's in the final interview he had with Det Serino ."
This is what you link states, "But when Zimmerman sat for his final interview with Sanford Police detectives Christopher Serino and Doris Singleton, he was confronted with a pesky perception. His injuries didn’t match the severity of the story he told.
“As far as 25 and 30 punches,” Serino said at the Feb. 29 sit-down, “I’ve consulted with a lot of people, not quite consistent with your injuries."
So if Zimmerman SAID it during the final interview, how did Serino REFERENCE it at the begining of the final interview?
Oh, and I said OFFICIAL document, not a reporter...and you give me a reporters story about what was said during the interview. Like I said, learn to READ.
">>>>>>>> So why'd George attack Trayvon ?"
He didn't, as evidence by NO marks on Trayvon. Now, I WILL concede that IF Martin was attacked, it must have been VERY mild and limited to his FINGER.
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googledad
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She only stated that when interviewed LATER by Crump, Martin's parents attorney. And it is eyewitness testimony, which is JUST as reliable as the eyewitness testimony SUPPORTING Zimmerman.
>>>>>>>>>> The eyewitness who didn't see any punches are a head being slammed into the ground ? As you said , it's a piece of the puzzle .
Broken nose is not really a lack of serious injuries.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 25 punches ana a non-displaced fracture ? What was Trayvon doing , hitting him with a pillow ?
Okay, he was out of sight (lets ignore your FIRST claim that there was NOWHERE for Martin hide, thus he COULDN'T have been hidden, LMAO, because the ONLY way to use YOUR ideas is to ignore some piece of evidence). Why would he speak to Zimmerman if he was out of SIGHT?
>>>>>>>>> The gun you moron . Pistols are pretty easy to hide .
Okay, so where did the injury to Zimmerman's face come from?
>>>>>>>>> During the confrontation . George's story is it started when Trayvon punched him . He could just have easily been elbowed when he tried to restrain Trayvon .
The injuries to Zimmerman's face and the abrasion to Martin's hand.
>>>>>>>>>>> The only thing that proves is a physical confrontation , not who started it .
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googledad
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Oh, and I said OFFICIAL document, not a reporter...and you give me a reporters story about what was said during the interview. Like I said, learn to READ.
>>>>>>>>>> Ya moron , the ACTUAL AUDIO RECORDING is embedded on the site .
He didn't, as evidence by NO marks on Trayvon. Now, I WILL concede that IF Martin was attacked, it must have been VERY mild and limited to his FINGER.
>>>>>>>>>> And no defensive wounds on Zimmerman . Minor injuries after 25 punches and having his head slammed REPEATEDLY into concrete .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>> The gun you moron . Pistols are pretty easy to hide ."
Oh, okay, so Zimmerman DREW his pistol from its concealed holster, and then HID it again? Okay, lets go with that theory. If the gun was HIDDEN, then Martin had no reason to attack Zimmerman to "save" himself, right? See, your theories hold NO water.
">>>>>>>>> During the confrontation . George's story is it started when Trayvon punched him . He could just have easily been elbowed when he tried to restrain Trayvon ."
And how, EXACTLY, do you attempt to restrain someone without leaving a SINGLE mark on them? Or are you theorizing that Zimmerman used some ancient chinese "ring finger hold" on him?
">>>>>>>>>>> The only thing that proves is a physical confrontation , not who started it ."
Actually, yes it does. Because in oirder to START a physical confrontation, you have to make some kind of PHYSICAL contact, and there are NO marks on Martin to indicate physical contact, with the exception of the abrasion on his finger, which is indicative of Martin HITTING something or someone, not BEING hit by someone.
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gr8Dad
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Can't get to the audio recording from where I am at right now, but will look at it later. BTW, wanted to thank you for providing your theories for me to bat away, it will be good for OTHER people who have read the same things to see how silly they are.
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googledad
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Oh, okay, so Zimmerman DREW his pistol from its concealed holster, and then HID it again? Okay, lets go with that theory. If the gun was HIDDEN, then Martin had no reason to attack Zimmerman to "save" himself, right? See, your theories hold NO water.
>>>>>>>>> Except Zimmerman was trying to restrain Trayvon , the noise his girlfriend heard and Trayvon saying " get off " . Trayvon didn't necessarily have to see the weapon .
And how, EXACTLY, do you attempt to restrain someone without leaving a SINGLE mark on them? Or are you theorizing that Zimmerman used some ancient chinese "ring finger hold" on him?
>>>>>>>>>> You mean everyone who get's arrested gets injured ?
Actually, yes it does. Because in oirder to START a physical confrontation, you have to make some kind of PHYSICAL contact, and there are NO marks on Martin to indicate physical contact, with the exception of the abrasion on his finger, which is indicative of Martin HITTING something or someone, not BEING hit by someone.
>>>>>>>>>> Grabbing or shoving intiateds physical contact WITHOUT leaving marks . Both are BATTERY .
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googledad
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Can't get to the audio recording from where I am at right now, but will look at it later. BTW, wanted to thank you for providing your theories for me to bat away, it will be good for OTHER people who have read the same things to see how silly they are.
>>>>>>>>>> Hahahahahahahahah .
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gr8Dad
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">>>>>>>>>> Grabbing or shoving intiateds physical contact WITHOUT leaving marks . Both are BATTERY ."
Really? Tell you what, you grab your OWN arm, tell me if there are marks. Now grab someone ELSE'S arm, and have them fight to get away, see if there are marks. Ah, you may say, but they don't LAST, right? Ah, but they DO when the circulation is cut off, from say a gun shot to the heart less than a minute later.
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googledad
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Sorta like defending yourself and receiving defensive wounds ?
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gr8Dad
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You have created an interesting catch 22 with the standard you have set. Trayvon has but that one mark on him, and you are using that to justify that Zimmerman DIDN'T defend himself while being attacked by Martin. Of course, if Martin HAD marks on him, you would be claiming Zimmerman had attacked him first and Martin was just defending himself.
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googledad
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Actually , no , I'm not . You're using Zimmerman's "wounds" to say Trayvon attacked him and Trayvon's lack of injuries to say Zimmerman DIDN'T attack Trayvon .
I'm saying Zim's LACK of defensive wounds and Trayvon's LACK of any injury except a small abrasion on his left hand PLUS Zimmerman;s LACK of serious injuries makes Zimmerman's STORY full of shyt .
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