english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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I'm going crazy just now. My daughter has been on the hunt for a new dog to replace the last one (a jack russell terrier mix) That dog bit her son when he was 6 months old and then a few times after that until his last bite was on his face which resulted in a serious infection and 3 1/2 days in the hospital getting IV antibiotics. Oh, he also bit my daughter and myself (but did not break the skin with me, just bruising). I hated that dog from day one. I worried all the time because I knew him to be aggressive with people and, mostly, with other dogs. I told her repeatedly to get rid of that dog! But she is and has always been contrary with me. She doesn't like it that I just might know better than she about anything.
So, she just texted me from some shelter. She sent me a pic of young male pitbull, telling me he was cute and very sweet and that they were going to let her try him out for 48 hours. I replied "48 hours is not long enough. Don't get a pitbull. Please don't!"
Any advice would be appreciated. I'm so upset, I don't even want to talk to her.
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SockPuppet1
journeyman
Reged: 12/30/11
Posts: 83
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Don't visit.
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Debi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 7135
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I know a lot of people say that pitbulls are great dogs and I have never had one so can't pretend to be an expert but I've heard so many horror stories that I would personally never have one.
Years ago my x had a student who was attacked by the families 3 pitbulls for no apparent reason. They had never behaved that way before. Had there not been roofers working next door they would have torn the boy apart. They saw what was happening and ran to help him. They had to beat the dogs off the kid. He spent weeks in the hospital. One of the dogs ended up dying and the parents sued the guy who saved their son! What a tragedy.
Our neighbors at the time also had a pitbull. We had a mutt and there was fence between our yards. Anytime our daughter was outside our dog would never let her near the fence. I mentioned to x one time that he needed to watch her and not let her too close to the fence. Because we had never had issues with the dog he thought I was being crazy. Then I pointed out that our dog didn't trust their dog and I was more comfortable with her instincts than his.
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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Arden
old hand
Reged: 02/27/06
Posts: 858
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That dog bit her son when he was 6 months old and then a few times after that until his last bite was on his face which resulted in a serious infection and 3 1/2 days in the hospital getting IV antibiotics.
+++++++++++++++++++++
I would call CPS. I know she is your daughter but, she seriously sounds like she has a screw loose and is a danger to her child.
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Maury
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 8146
Loc: This Asylum --->
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The dog is not the problem. The problem is the owner and their inability to properly train the dog
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ssmom79
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/27/07
Posts: 7784
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Any dog is capable of biting or attacking a child in the home. Training is important. You can encourage your daughter to properly train the dog and your grandchild to interact with the dog. Pit bulls gets a bad name because of their size and strength. More aggressive dogs are usually smaller, in fact, dachshunds and chihuahuas and jack russells are considered the most aggressive dogs. You just don't hear about their "attacks" because they are smaller and not reported as often.
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akrkck
newbie
Reged: 03/22/12
Posts: 49
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Pit Bulls get a bad name because they are the preferred dog for fighting due to their strength. Trained properly, they are wonderful with children. My wife's best friend has a female pit bull and a 1 year old daughter. She is the friendliest, sweetest dog I know and I would totally trust her with my 5 month old son. That being said, since this is a shelter dog and it's upbringing is unknown, I would NOT trust it or bring it into my home based on playing with it for 30 minutes at a shelter. Get a puppy and raise it yourself if you have small children.
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spinnerdegrassi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/20/06
Posts: 7952
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Tell your daughter to get a cat. Dog's kill and maim people, that's a fact.
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Maury
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 8146
Loc: This Asylum --->
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Based on that bit of genius advice - get a goldfish, cat's scratch - it's a fact. Have her live as a hermit, people kill- it's a fact. Don't let her swim in an ocean, sharks and other fish bite and sting.
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spinnerdegrassi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/20/06
Posts: 7952
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Yeah, cause a scratch is the same as a child's face being mauled by a dog who has inherent tendencies that no amount of training can erase.
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Avaya
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/06
Posts: 9816
Loc: Arkansas
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After her experience I wouldn't have ANY dog. That poor kid is going to be afraid forever!
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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Thanks everyone for your advice. Debi, I've heard the same horror stories and for that reason alone I would not want her to get a pitbull. Maybe it's all hype and exaggeration, but I would not chance it.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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"The dog is not the problem. The problem is the owner and their inability to properly train the dog "
This is what she used to think and why she kept the jack russell so long. He was about 4 when she got him. She tried to train him. Her boyfriend believed he could train him but gave up, saying the dog was impossible.
I suppose one could say there is an owner for every dog--that is, there is someone out there who could straighten the dog out.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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"That being said, since this is a shelter dog and it's upbringing is unknown, I would NOT trust it or bring it into my home based on playing with it for 30 minutes at a shelter. Get a puppy and raise it yourself if you have small children."
I agree!
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Runswithscissors
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 05/29/04
Posts: 13381
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Not entirely correct. All dogs can attack, we know that... but certain breeds have inherited traits that no matter what type of training you do.... it's in them....
Pit Bulls around children is about as smart as leaving matches with a toddler...
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ssmom79
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/27/07
Posts: 7784
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I do agree that she doesn't know the upbringing of this dog and that would be a good point of discussion.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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She considered a cat, Spinner, but she's more partial to dogs.
As of this morning, she still had not accepted the pitbull. I would not answer her phone call last night because I knew she was looking for an argument over this. I won't go there. She told my sister in fb "Aunt Susie, I don't think my mother approves..." My sister replied, "Do what you think is right for you and your son! Your Mom will give me shyt for that, but It's your life and home." I did not join that conversation. Thank goodness my brother did, though. He said "With the problems you've already had with biting dogs I don't see the sanity of bringing another dog home that comes from a line known to become agressive for no reason."
Believe it or not, my daughter is a very smart woman of 33. She's got some different ideas about some things, though.
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19804
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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Don't get a pitbull. Please don't!
---> Why not? I remember when it was German Shepherds. Then it was Dobermans. Then it was Rottweilers. Now it's Pit Bulls.
---> ANY dog...from Chihuahuas, Dachshunds and Poodles to Great Danes and St Bernards...can be 'vicious' animals. It's not the dog, it's the OWNER. My friend's husband's partner has a Pit Bull...biggest freaking baby you ever saw...thinks he's a lap dog. My oldest nephew's friend has a Pit Bull...he never worries about his kids playing in the front yard because the dog has been PROPERLY trained, but he's like a big cuddle bug playing with the kids.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19804
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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He was about 4 when she got him. She tried to train him. Her boyfriend believed he could train him but gave up, saying the dog was impossible.
---> It's just about training the dog, it's about training the kid(s) too. Ever notice the difference between adults who don't have kids or have been around kids versus parents or adults who are around kids? Animals are the same way. And when you have a toddler...they can be very rough on an animal when they 'play'. Dogs ears are very sensitive and little kids seem to gravitate to them...along with tails. And if you've ever been hit by a toddler unexpectedly...little kids can pack quite a punch.
---> So maybe it wasn't the fault of the dog, but the fault of your daughter and her boyfriend for not properly training the child and/or supervising.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19804
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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More aggressive dogs are usually smaller, in fact, dachshunds and chihuahuas and jack russells are considered the most aggressive dogs.
---> As the former owner of a dachshund, I know this to be true. Dachshunds were bred to be aggressive hunting dogs...to go after and kill small burrowing animals. I watched my dachshund snap the neck of a possum that was almost twice his size (damn thing came through the dog door). All in all, he was a good dog, but in his later years, we had to watch him closely around small children. My oldest nephew was used to his own dog and didn't understand that our dog couldn't be played with in the same manner.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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onerose
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/30/05
Posts: 3151
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That dog bit her son when he was 6 months old and then a few times after that until his last bite was on his face which resulted in a serious infection and 3 1/2 days in the hospital getting IV antibiotics.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think I would be more concerned with why on earth your DD has let her son get bitten over and over.
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kkimberh
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/10
Posts: 391
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Pit bulls can be completely awesome dogs. HOWEVER, you have to be a certain type of person to really own one successfully.
I agree with Arden, to be honest. If your daughter had trouble with a jack russel and biting, then she SERIOUSLY does NOT have the kind of personality that it takes to own a pit bull... Really - that is a tragedy waiting to happen...
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I love therapy. It's like a talk show, where I'm the guest and the only topic is me.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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I was very concerned, onerose! Prior to this last bite on the face, she had only told me about the first bite when he was 6 months old. It wasn't a bad bite (on his foot) but it did break the skin. It didn't matter to me that it wasn't such a deep bite; I wanted that dog gone! After the most recent bite is when she told me about the other times.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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Isn't it true that each breed has different tendencies? Isn't it also true that each individual dog has its own personality? I know of one pitbull that is incredibly sweet. Her jack russel mix was simply a bad dog, just like some people are bad people. It's not always only a result of their upbringing. I believe it's both nature and nurture.
You could be right that my daughter does not have the personality to raise a dog who is already unruly and aggressive. She did her best, I know that for sure. She did not want to take the dog back to the shelter because they told her it would be put down. She blamed herself for not being able to change him. I do NOT blame her for that because I know she did everything she could.
As to whether or not she has the right personality to raise a pit from puppyhood, I don't know. And I don't want her to try.
She has this idea that she should rescue a dog who is unwanted. It's a sweet sentiment, and I instilled that in her, but it should not supersede what is right for her son.
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kkimberh
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/10
Posts: 391
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Oh sure - I've been involved in dog rescue for years and years - there are always going to be exceptions and other factors.
I personally would never have a pit bull. I love the dogs, love the breed and have met some incredible dogs, but I do recognize that I do not have the assertive personality required for such an assertive breed.
For your daughter - she's a single mom, right? I would recommend a more guarding protective and gentle breed - i.e. retreiver, collie breed, pyrenees, or a good ol' mutt. I live along w/ my dd and we had a great pyrenees - they are incredibly fierce and protective, and even more incredibly gentle. Whatever the breed, I'd recommend a younger dog/puppy and some serious obedience training. The training helps the owner as much as the dog - AND it's way way fun... Maybe you could give it to her as a gift, so she wouldn't see that as critism - you could just word it in a way that you thought she might enjoy it and they would have fun. How old is your grandson? He'd be able to participate as well.
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I love therapy. It's like a talk show, where I'm the guest and the only topic is me.
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Debi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 7135
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"I live along w/ my dd and we had a great pyrenees -"
My X SO had one and he was awesome. My 14yo (then 3) used to ride him. We took him camping all the time and he was great , but let a stranger get too close to one of the kids and he was standing between them letting the stranger know he/she better not move closer. Totaly a gentle giant.
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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javajunkiee
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 3155
Loc: SC
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[quote]Oh sure - I've been involved in dog rescue for years and years - there are always going to be exceptions and other factors.
I personally would never have a pit bull. I love the dogs, love the breed and have met some incredible dogs, but I do recognize that I do not have the assertive personality required for such an assertive breed.
For your daughter - she's a single mom, right? I would recommend a more guarding protective and gentle breed - i.e. retreiver, collie breed, pyrenees, or a good ol' mutt. I live along w/ my dd and we had a great pyrenees - they are incredibly fierce and protective, and even more incredibly gentle. Whatever the breed, I'd recommend a younger dog/puppy and some serious obedience training. The training helps the owner as much as the dog - AND it's way way fun... Maybe you could give it to her as a gift, so she wouldn't see that as critism - you could just word it in a way that you thought she might enjoy it and they would have fun. How old is your grandson? He'd be able to participate as well. [/quote]
This? Is the best way to do it. Honestly though, if your daughter tries to train a dog on her own with her track record, she's asking for trouble. Pitties behavior is directly tied to the quality of training and the assertiveness of the owner IMO.
I'd go further to say she has no business owning ANY breed when she has a 3yo to care for. She has her hands full enough, and if the child hurts the dog, no matter how unintentionally, the dog will protect itself. She also needs to consider the costs involved and the quality of life the dog would have. Can she afford vaccinations, emergency vet visits, food, training, collars/leashes? Where will the dog be when she's not home? Stuck on a tie out? Will she exercise it? Does she go anywhere overnight she couldn't take the dog, and if so, who will care for it? What will she do when the honeymoon wears off and the dog is digging holes or jumping the fence?
If she's not prepared to go the distance through the inconvenience and the expense of a dog, she's doing more harm than good and could be keeping it from a home that could give it a wonderful life.
Get a fish tank, child proof it, and go from there.
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Marriage doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
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finz
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 6462
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[quote]Isn't it true that each breed has different tendencies? Isn't it also true that each individual dog has its own personality? I know of one pitbull that is incredibly sweet. Her jack russel mix was simply a bad dog, just like some people are bad people. It's not always only a result of their upbringing. I believe it's both nature and nurture.
You could be right that my daughter does not have the personality to raise a dog who is already unruly and aggressive. She did her best, I know that for sure. She did not want to take the dog back to the shelter because they told her it would be put down. She blamed herself for not being able to change him. I do NOT blame her for that because I know she did everything she could.
As to whether or not she has the right personality to raise a pit from puppyhood, I don't know. And I don't want her to try.
She has this idea that she should rescue a dog who is unwanted. It's a sweet sentiment, and I instilled that in her, but it should not supersede what is right for her son. [/quote]
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Anyone who allows a dog to repeatedly bite someone has NOT done everything they could.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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"She has her hands full enough, and if the child hurts the dog, no matter how unintentionally, the dog will protect itself. She also needs to consider the costs involved and the quality of life the dog would have. Can she afford vaccinations, emergency vet visits, food, training, collars/leashes? Where will the dog be when she's not home? Stuck on a tie out? Will she exercise it? Does she go anywhere overnight she couldn't take the dog, and if so, who will care for it? What will she do when the honeymoon wears off and the dog is digging holes or jumping the fence?
If she's not prepared to go the distance through the inconvenience and the expense of a dog, she's doing more harm than good and could be keeping it from a home that could give it a wonderful life.
Get a fish tank, child proof it, and go from there."
It's true that she has her hands full. I'd rather she wait until her life slows down a bit. But she has done a really exceptional job of juggling a professional career, caring for her demanding but incredibly intelligent son, and caring for a stupid dog who, as I saw it HAD NO RIGHT TO LIVE. Okay, I got that out. lol
As far as affording the new dog, she can. Right now as a single mom, she is making almost $100,000. She will be moving up in a few months to, I think, $120,000. She is careful, determined to succeed, and frugal, as she was raised to be. Worried about vet bills and collars? No.
What I'm worried about is that she doesn't seem to have any common sense about animals! She is a vegan who seems to equate animals to humans.
I'm thinking she is too busy to adequately raise a dog. She is gone for 8-12 hours a day. The dog is in the cage, and when she comes home, she has to deal with a demanding child and her own exhaustion.
She wants a dog because she thinks it is good for her son--and she wants to provide everything she can for him. She also just plain wants a comfort dog, you know? a companion dog for herself and her boy (that's the idea I'm getting).
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Sadie
addict
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 567
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Has she thought about a Pug. They are great with kids, very loving, and gentle, and very devoted to their famiy. We have one and he is wonderful with our kids, plays with them, and cuddles while they watch tv.
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SockPuppet1
journeyman
Reged: 12/30/11
Posts: 83
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Who cares bout how much she makes. Anyone who REPEATEDLY let's a dog injure a child is not a good parent, a responsible pet owner or very smart. If I knew she had allowed that to happen, I'd call CPS and whoever she's trying to adopt the dog from. Plus I would call the child's dad and encourage him to go for custody. STUPID and IRRESPONSIBLE WITCH.
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19804
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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She wants a dog because she thinks it is good for her son.....
---> But is her son going to be good for a dog? From everything that I am hearing, the child NEEDS to be trained as much as a dog. Let's be honest here, single parents, especially those who are exhausted at the end of an average work day, have a tendency to NOT be the most disciplined parents. The first time a child gets bit by the family pet is an accident, the second (and third and whatever) time is simply negligence on the part of the parent.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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"From everything that I am hearing, the child NEEDS to be trained as much as a dog."
What, pray tell, did you hear that told you that?
I think it's laughable that you don't blame the dog. It's that kind of warped thinking that caused my daughter to keep a biting dog.
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19804
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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What, pray tell, did you hear that told you that?
---> From you.
I think it's laughable that you don't blame the dog.
---> The ONLY thing 'laughable' here is your ignorance of Jack Russell Terriers. Your daughter couldn't have picked a worse dog to have around a child because of their low tolerance for abuse, even when it's accidental.
It's that kind of warped thinking that caused my daughter to keep a biting dog.
---> What is really 'warped'...is that you ALLOWED your grandchild to be bitten MULTIPLE times WITHOUT stepping in!!! And NOW...you're freaking out over a Pit Bull?!? You should have been freaking out the SECOND time the child was bit!
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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"What, pray tell, did you hear that told you that?
---> From you."
I asked you "what" you heard, not from whom.
"---> The ONLY thing 'laughable' here is your ignorance of Jack Russell Terriers. Your daughter couldn't have picked a worse dog to have around a child because of their low tolerance for abuse, even when it's accidental."
I'm not ignorant about jack russells, and where did this "abuse" you speak of come from? You are really stretching.
"---> What is really 'warped'...is that you ALLOWED your grandchild to be bitten MULTIPLE times WITHOUT stepping in!!! And NOW...you're freaking out over a Pit Bull?!? You should have been freaking out the SECOND time the child was bit!"
Earth to Gecko . . . The only time (before the last time) I was told of the dog biting was when my grandson was 6 months old. The baby was crying, and the dog lightly bit its foot. Is this the abuse you're talking about? And oh yes, I was freaking out! The second time that I was told about, I was ready to call the police in her state. I told her if she did not get the dog out of that house, I would call them.
You can be as bad a bytch as you want to, but it doesn't give you the right to invent my family's situation.
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kkimberh
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/10
Posts: 391
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[quote]"I live alone w/ my dd and we had a great pyrenees -"
My X SO had one and he was awesome. My 14yo (then 3) used to ride him. We took him camping all the time and he was great , but let a stranger get too close to one of the kids and he was standing between them letting the stranger know he/she better not move closer. Totaly a gentle giant. [/quote]
Isn't it incredible how subtle they can be while they are guarding?? It used to annoy me that my dog would not stay on one side of me or the other when we went for walks. It took awhile to realize he was keeping himself between me and whoever/whatever he saw/felt/smelled/heard..... :)
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I love therapy. It's like a talk show, where I'm the guest and the only topic is me.
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kkimberh
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/10
Posts: 391
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[quote]"From everything that I am hearing, the child NEEDS to be trained as much as a dog."
What, pray tell, did you hear that told you that?
I think it's laughable that you don't blame the dog. It's that kind of warped thinking that caused my daughter to keep a biting dog. [/quote]
*** Seriously? They've got a point. Children being taught how to treat their animals is HUGE. Even in rescue, I honestly have met few dogs who bite without being provoked. I'm a full-time working single parent. My rat terrier was 2 when my dd was born,and my dd was 2 when we got my pyr. Our dogs have always been a huge part of our lives and my dd has grown up learning from day one how to take care of them and how to treat them, along with being taught how to approach or when not to approach a dog she does not know. That is something I believe is essential to teach ANY child.
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I love therapy. It's like a talk show, where I'm the guest and the only topic is me.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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THIS is the kind of dog I'd like them to have! Unfortunately, the shelters are populated with more pit bulls than any other breed.
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ssmom79
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/27/07
Posts: 7784
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Jack Russell 3rd most aggressive dog. Seems crazy, but it's true they are very aggressive. The owner AND the pet cause the behavior of the pet.
The child would need training and it's not to say your grandchild is unruly or out of control, it's just with dogs I've found that both pet and owners (including family) need to be taught proper ways to handle dogs. The benefits are phenomenal. Every breed is different, then personality comes into play.
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kkimberh
enthusiast
Reged: 03/24/10
Posts: 391
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[quote]Jack Russell 3rd most aggressive dog. Seems crazy, but it's true they are very aggressive. The owner AND the pet cause the behavior of the pet.
The child would need training and it's not to say your grandchild is unruly or out of control, it's just with dogs I've found that both pet and owners (including family) need to be taught proper ways to handle dogs. The benefits are phenomenal. Every breed is different, then personality comes into play. [/quote]
EXACTLY! This is why I love obedience training, especially if you get a good trainer (places like PetSmart have classes all the time and they are fairly inexpensive). They will teach you the best way to work with your dog - it's not just a one-size-fits-all type thing.
I have a 1/2 catahoula 1/2 boxer now. She looks all fierce and mean like a catahoula but she is a complete wuss (like a boxer)... Unfortunately, our obedience class trainer took one look at her and I think she was a little afraid of her. So that class was not nearly as effective as it should have been....
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I love therapy. It's like a talk show, where I'm the guest and the only topic is me.
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english7
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3001
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"Children being taught how to treat their animals is HUGE." I agree, and so does my daughter. She's done a great job teaching her son how to treat animals. Why does everyone think she has not?
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finz
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 6462
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[quote]"Children being taught how to treat their animals is HUGE." I agree, and so does my daughter. She's done a great job teaching her son how to treat animals. Why does everyone think she has not? [/quote]
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Because you've said A LOT about how BAD that dog was, but not much about the repeated intensive training that your dd has done with that dog.
I believe it's possible some animals (like people) are just born bad. I think far more are made bad by abuse. Many of those can be helped by training from a [censored] but loving master educated in how to manage the dog.
You haven't talked about your dd's expertise in working with the jrt, or the expert opinions she sought out......so 'it's easy to assume that that did not happen.
If the expert training did not happen after the dog bit the child, that shows poor judgement on your dd's part. When other bite attacks happened, if there was no follow up with dog training professionals, that shows extremely poor judgement on the part of the dog owner.
If expert training did happen and a professional decided that this dog was not salvagable or needed to live in a restricted environment, it would be great if you could mention that, so that we are all able to discuss this with the same facts on the history.
IF that has happened and your dd continued to allow the demon dog access to a young child, that shows extremely poor judgement.
With all of the possible scenarios I can think of, it seems like poor judgement on the part of the dog owner (your dd) is a part of the problem.
It sounds like you blamed the jrt for everything and not your dd.
Why would you think she will use good judgement this time around ?
From what you have said about her, it sounds like adopting a rescue is important to her. If she is looking into a pb because that's mostly what she sees in the shelters (and it's what I saw too when I was looking) and not actually because she picked out that breed, you could encourage her to check out petfinder dot com. She could see a wide variety of rescue animals.
There are many mild mannered dogs out there that don't act aggressively because they have a great temperment and their needs are being met. Sometimes that's the luck of the draw, but you can increase your odds with certain breeds. Many breeds CAN be great family dogs, but they need a [censored] hand to guide them along the way. If your dd doesn't have that [censored] hand then she owes it to her child to at least show some caution with choosing a breed that doesn't REQUIRE it.
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english7
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Thank you, finz. You are so on target with a lot of what you said. I'll reply tomorrow. I appreciate it that you took the time to decipher this. It looks like my daughter is going to adopt the pit.
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MinnesotaMom
member
Reged: 01/05/11
Posts: 171
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I had a pitbull as a child and it was a wonderful dog that never bit anyone. She was however difficult to play with because she was high energy and so powerful. I had more than 1 black eye and bleeding in the mouth when playing with her.
With that said, I probably don't recommend one for small children.
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english7
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"Because you've said A LOT about how BAD that dog was, but not much about the repeated intensive training that your dd has done with that dog."
She got the dog in 2007 or 2008, when she bought her first house. For the first couple of weeks, the dog was fairly calm. They guessed he was about 4 years old but it had to be house trained, get used to his crate, and taught to walk on a leash. She took him to what she calls "puppy school" and she read a lot about training. Everything folks in here are saying about what to do, such as teaching the dog who the pack leader is, is what she's says over and over.
She wanted a dog who would be a companion. This dog has never been much of a companion. Other than wanting to sleep on her bed, his personality consists of an incessant desire to chase anything and everything and chew up things. He's a Jack Russell mix with a more powerful, muscular body than a pure Jack Russell. She has a 6-foot security fence in her backyard for him chase things. He's killed 2 squirrels and a couple of birds--and we can't figure out how he got them. I don't believe any amount of expert intensive training could change his personality. Her vet hasn't been able to help, either. The best she could do was provide a routine of backyard, walks, meals, some time in the living room, and caging at night and while she is at work. She's done an excellent job with a difficult dog and despite my pleas to get rid of him, she's been determined he will not be put down. She's tried over the years to find another more suitable home for him, but nobody wants him.
Her son was born in 2009. We were all worried about how the dog would react. She allowed supervised interaction slowly, and the dog behaved well enough. I mean, she allowed the dog to be in the same space as the baby for short periods of time while she either held the baby or watched. I guess it was only a matter of time before he bit. He was too quick for her to prevent it. After that happened, she called on several experts for help and tried to find another home for him. The shelter told her if she returned him, he would be euthanized.
As my grandson grew and began to toddle around, the dog began to see him as his master, too. They would play catch and retrieve, the child would give him treats, etc. All the training and guidance she made use of seemed to be working, but she still had to watch the dog carefully. I still did not trust him. He was too wild. The little boy bonded with the dog, but I can't say the dog was capable of bonding with anyone.
"IF that has happened and your dd continued to allow the demon dog access to a young child, that shows extremely poor judgement."
I agree. While the dog was okay with the child most of the time, that is not enough!
"Why would you think she will use good judgement this time around ?"
I don't! That is why I frantically posted when she told me about the new dog she was looking at. To be honest, I don't think the pitbull is nearly as unruly as the Jack Russell, but the stigma associated with them has me scared.
"If she is looking into a pb because that's mostly what she sees in the shelters (and it's what I saw too when I was looking) and not actually because she picked out that breed, you could encourage her to check out petfinder dot com. She could see a wide variety of rescue animals."
She found about a dozen dogs using petfinder and craigslist and other sources. She isn't looking for a pitbull, just a dog that would make a good companion for her and her little guy. She's turning down any dog that is too large or feisty or active. As it turns out, the pit has been the most respectful and calm with my grandson. My trying to dissuade her has only caused problems between us.
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/05/10
Posts: 2161
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We have a King Charles Cavalier Spaniel. Very, very good breed to have with children if you raise them (kids and the dog) correctly. She was a free to good home dog.
Too bad your dd doesn't appear to research breeds before she adopts a dog.
Those poor dogs. When you adopt a dog, you should plan on having it the rest of its life. Not until you get sick of it.
Jack Russells are not dogs to have around little kids. The do not tolerate any type of abuse (even accidental). They are very high energy. A former roomate of mine had one and there is no way I'd have one with kids around. They have a lot of energy and I felt sorry for it when she crated it in the morning - knowing it would be in the crate for 10 hours.
A pit bull is dumb around kids - if she did any research she'd know that. Especially one that you have no idea on how it was raised. Did she know that her homeowner's policy may increase or even drop her if they know she has a pit?
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/05/10
Posts: 2161
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She should call her vet to see if she/he has any leads on dogs that are good with kids. Explain what she requires and they may make recommendations.
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ssmom79
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Some of the nicest dogs are just mutts.
My SD has a mutt named Holly. She is some kinda mix of a few breeds and she is the greatest dog. Loves everyone. Never runs off. Always wagging.
She sounds like she's making good preparations for a future fur family member. I'm sure in the end they will find a perfect addition. Remind her that sometimes the right dog takes time.
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Runswithscissors
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You have to consider not only aggressiveness but what type of punch they can pull.... While a bite from a JR can HURT and be painful.... one bite would not kill a person.... vs. something like a Pitt.... take for example... a bite from a Lab is NOT as hard/sharp as a bite from a pitt because instinctively Labs are bird dogs and have a more gentlier mouth... In different breeds of hound dogs you have different degrees of bites.
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Runswithscissors
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English,
I wish you all luck with the Pitt Bull... If I was dead set on getting one.. I would get a puppy..... like we JUST this week got a new dog... (still have our Boston)... and we got a German Shepherd.... I would of NEVER gotten one when the kids were little... but considering my 13 year old is now 6.1 and 165 lb.. I think we are good! BUT I still got a puppy... it was a rescue, but still a puppy (thats keeping me UP ALL NIGHT LONG)
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finz
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[quote]"Because you've said A LOT about how BAD that dog was, but not much about the repeated intensive training that your dd has done with that dog."
She got the dog in 2007 or 2008, when she bought her first house. For the first couple of weeks, the dog was fairly calm. They guessed he was about 4 years old but it had to be house trained, get used to his crate, and taught to walk on a leash. She took him to what she calls "puppy school" and she read a lot about training. [/quote]
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For the first few weeks she had him, the dog was fairly calm.....and THEN the dog started acting up ?
That doesn't sound like a demon dog who is inherently 'bad'.
That sounds like her interactions with the dog contributed to the dog acting up.
Beyond that, I'm just hoping that your dd chooses 'cutsie'and inappropraite names for things and did not actually take a 4 yo dog to 'puppy' training.
At this point, you can worry about what your dd will think of the relationship between the two of you.......or you can step up and be THE adult who shows a basic concern for gs's wellbeing.
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finz
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"She's done an excellent job with a difficult dog."
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We'd all be interested to hear about any proof of that.
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english7
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Finz? WTF?
I hoped for better from you.
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finz
Carpal \'Tunnel
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If you want people, including me, to agree with you......you'd do best to have a reasonable arguement. We're still waiting for the evidence that your dd did ANYTHING to actually try to train this dog.
Please feel free to share that info.
We've got that the dog was fine for awhile when she first got him.
We've got that she caged him at night and during her work day.
Then the dog started acting up.
Then your dd decided to have a baby as a single mother, affording her even less time with the dog.
Then the dog started biting the baby.....you know, the competition for what attention the dog was getting.
Then your dd continued to let the dog and kid have inadequately supervised access to each other, but that's somehow supposed to be okay because her goal was to not have to put the dog down.....even if the person who paid the price for her decisions was a small child.
If the only part of this story that you have a problem with is that your dd is now considering a bigger dog that can do even more damage, you have missed the HUGE issues that came before that.
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english7
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You are one bitter, unrelenting, argumentative woman, and I will not continue to discuss it with you. You get your rocks off by baiting a poster, creating an argument, twisting things to get a poster engaged and on the defensive, and pounding away until a poster gives up--just so you can then feel like you've won it. You don't want to help; you want to fight. And here I thought you'd changed. Your husband must have a spot waiting for him in heaven because he's surely been living in hell on earth with you.
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javajunkiee
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The last thing I'll add to this because there are way too many variants to this situation and they're all being relayed by English, who doesn't actually have the firsthand experience. That's not a slam btw, it just is what it is, and that English is concerned is far more telling to me then whether or not I see her POV.
If you lock a dog in a crate, or out on a tie out, or even out in a pen, for the majority of the day, the dog is being set up for anti-social, inappropriate behavior. You have to be dedicated to providing the dog the one on one training and interaction with humans and other dogs alike, in order to counteract the isolation and boredom the dog is being forced to experience.
Humans need some type of socialization or we can exhibit inappropriate behaviors, and its absolutely NO different for a dog.
Well except for the fact that humans have choices, dogs do not. They're at the mercy of the humans in their life to determine whether they have a HAPPY and safe life.
English, I hope your D gets realistic and doesn't take this on. It doesn't matter how smart she is, or how good her intentions are..... she's adding more to her plate and the ones who will suffer if she drops the ball are her son and the dog.
Good luck -
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Marriage doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
Edited by javajunkiee (07/15/12 10:22 AM)
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english7
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Thanks, JJ. You've given me advice I can use, if my daughter will listen.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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My good friends have 2 pit bulls who are big babies who think they are lap dogs - they have trained both dogs to behave and both dogs are allowed around my children any time - I trust them completely.
That said, a good family friends daughter was attacked last spring by a pit bull that was a family friends pet. She sustained most of the muscle being torn from her elbow and went through extensive surgery to repair with additional surgery with skin grafts to allow for more flexibility and mobility with the arm. The dog knew her as she played at her friends house a lot, the dog first got a hold of her stomach but she managed to get it to let go and it went for her elbow. She and her friend had to get the dog over to the table (glass) and bang its head until the table shattered and the dog let go and the girl ran to the bedroom being chased by the dog. Come to find out the dog did have some aggression and they had a muzzle for it and a beware of dog sign - the owners are denying it but their daughter is saying it is true.
The grandparents of our family friends daughter have paid all of the medical that the medical insurance did not pay and there is no reason to sue as the owners have nothing and the homeowner (not the owners of the dog) does have a medical allowance of 1,000 so that is being paid but the situation is being funded by the grandparents. She was an athlete who participated in many sports and has so far not gained enough use back to continue. She is 12 years old but a very mature 12 - a month after it happened they came upon a pit bull at the park and she asked the owner if she could pet the dog and the owner said yes even though her mother did not want her to, she said she had to, she didn't want to be afraid. She still has nightmares but is doing well and has had therapy and is making the best out of a bad situation. The friend who owned the dog that attacked was receiving a lot of harassment at school but the girl that was attacked stood up for her friend because it isn't her friends fault.
Would I have a pit bull - only if it was a puppy and I trained it. I don't believe in crating dogs all day long.
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finz
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Reged: 06/17/08
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[quote]Thanks, JJ. You've given me advice I can use, if my daughter will listen. [/quote]
I pointed out that the dog's behavior issues started AFTER the dog was in a crate 16 plus hours a day and I'm "bitter, angry, resentful" etc, but jj says it and it's advice you can use ?
You just aren't getting that your dd seems to be the problem here.
If you want my husband, he'll be free soon enough.
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elliesmom
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Reged: 11/07/05
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English, I agree that this is a horrible idea.
I love pits. They can be the sweetest dogs. I have had 2 rotties myself. They are/were the sweetest dogs I have ever owned.
I appreciate what your daughter wants to do (adopt a rescue), but she needs to prioritize.
#1 She needs a dog that can handle abuse. Little kids can be taught, but even when they know what to do - will still mess up. And kids don't speak dog nor can toddlers be taught to recognize and interpret dog body language. Its is nuanced enough that I would say you almost have to be a teenager. If we were talking about a poodle - I would say the risk even when the kid messes up is not too great. But we aren't. We are talking about a pit bull. Unless she wants another dog to end up like her jack russell - she needs to leave the dog to find its perfect family and rescue the dog that can have her provide its forever home. Making the wrong choice ruins TWO dogs chances at a forever home. The wrong dog she takes and the right one she doesn't.
#2 - she needs a dog that can handle being alone/kenneled all day. Jack russell - DEAR GOD could she have made a worse choice????? And a pit bull isn't far behind.
I know you don't like hearing smacktalk about your daughter, because her heart was in a good place. But the fact is if she wants to have a dog - she needs to learn alot more about them. She is making uninformed bad decisions that have already hurt your grandbaby and resulting in the death of a dog. Personally I am SHOCKED that after her experience of having her child bitten TWICE that finding a safe non aggressive dog isn't her NUMBER ONE priority. If she cannot control a jack russell - she has no business with a pit bull. I can't believe a reputable rescue organization would consider placing one with her unless she is withholding information. I have had 2 rotties - one rescued and one I raised. I would never get another rescue aggressive dog while I have kids. Everything worked out fine with mine (and we lost her in january) because I can easily establish that I am alpha. But you never know what can come up with a dog whose history you don't know. My rotties wouldn't even go into a room where my babies were - its like they instinctively KNEW that I was mama and you will feel mamas wrath if you go near her babies.
We recently rescued a dog - a beagle. I met the dog with my kids and studied her behavior. The big red flag I looked for was a startle and fear at ANY behavior. After an hour where even her tail got accidently stepped on - she exhibited neither. Now - beagles have alot of energy, but I am home all day and the dog gets to be out and play. This poor dog one time walked too close to my baby in a bumbo seat and he got her ear and held on. She sat there until I rescued her. That is what your daughter needs in a dog. Hopefully for everyone's sake you can convince her of that.
Personally I would have LOVED to get a Cavalier King Charles, but rescuers can't be that picky. Maybe you can go on petfinder and see what is available near her.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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