gr8Dad
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With the recent change in Boy Scout policy, no longer banning openly gay boys from participating, many Southern Baptist churches are ceasing their affiliation with the Boy Scouts.
Great call guys, SO VERY CHRIST-LIKE!
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Gecko
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Great call guys, SO VERY CHRIST-LIKE!
---> LOL and your point is..........what?!? You can't have it both ways. You're always going on and on about following the Bible, and the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, so wouldn't it be 'Christ-like' to set the group aside (as opposed to stoning them)?
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spinnerdegrassi
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Eh, assholes are assholes. Just reinforces the utter trash that permeates the south. Probably why the hillbillies will always be inferior.
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Avaya
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Mmmmmmm, yes, ceasing affiliation with an organization that changed their core foundation to one which isn't biblical is exactly Christlike. {see how I did that, said the same thing you did, but without the sarcasm}.
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gr8Dad
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"You're always going on and on about following the Bible"
This is true.
"and the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, so wouldn't it be 'Christ-like' to set the group aside (as opposed to stoning them)?"
Actually, CHRIST didn't set ANYONE "aside". If you believe the stories, he hung out with the scum of the earth, who NEEDED saving. But what THIS church is doing is casting out EVERY male child that is involved in Boyscouts, because there MIGHT be a GAY male in there.
And YOU are defending this. If it was POSSIBLE, your number on the "creepy Christian scale" just went up a little more. That you would condone a supposedly caring, compassionate group kicking out the BOYSCOUTS, because they MIGHT have to deal with a gay kid, who probably NEEDS some support and some LOVE to get through what is probably a very difficult time in their life, is VERY telling.
And your condoned CHRISTIAN response? "Eh, fvck em." How VERY VERY compassionate. Lets hope when your SISTER was coming out, she had someone slightly more commpassionate than YOU around to deal with it.
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gr8Dad
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"Mmmmmmm, yes, ceasing affiliation with an organization that changed their core foundation to one which isn't biblical is exactly Christlike."
So, as a Christian, could you point me to the Christian teaching in the bible that says not to associate with or teach woodland/nature skills to homosexuals?
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spinnerdegrassi
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What's funny is that if christian were really true to their made up faith, they'd disassociate with pretty much everything since their hypocrisy when it comes to sinning knows no bounds. How many churches have parishoners who are cheating on their spouses? I bet they have no issue with taking their collection plate $$$ each week. Or those in their church who have bastard children (which in this country is pretty much 50+% of all new kids) Going to disassociate yourself with those sinners?
The cherry picking is hilarious. If the sin affects their bottom line (namely getting $$$ to keep their cult running) they turn a blind eye to it.
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Redlegg
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I guess the cherry picking is ironic....
Boy Scout Oath or Promise
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
Waiting for the hypocrisy alerts in 3....2......never.....
too funny
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gr8Dad
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No, pointing to OTHER sins or sinners is not the answer. I want to know where the BIBLE says you shouldn't ASSOCIATE with homosexuals (especially CHILDREN). I mean we can debate whether or not the bible is ACTUALLY against homosexuality (there are a NUMBER of translation questions/issues), but that is not the case here. No one is saying they have to ACCPET homosexuality, or PRACTICE it, just allow CHILDREN who are in a NONSEXUAL environment (the BOYSCOUTS) to continue to learn BOYSCOUT (NONSEXUAL) stuff.
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gr8Dad
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Sorry, which part of the Scout Oath prohibits homosexuality?
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gr8Dad
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Funny thing, in the NEW TESTAMENT references to homosexuality, they ALSO include masturbation. I guess NONE of the 10-18 year old heterosexual boys have EVER done that, huh?
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Redlegg
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Sorry, which part of the Scout Oath prohibits homosexuality?
Why, I am sure it is right there, next to where it says they have to accept it....
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spinnerdegrassi
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[quote]I guess the cherry picking is ironic....
Boy Scout Oath or Promise
On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.
Waiting for the hypocrisy alerts in 3....2......never.....
too funny [/quote]
Which god? I don't see Jesus. If the Boy Scout is Jewish or Muslim, or Native he can do his duty to his god.
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Redlegg
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Yeah, that's the ticket for sure.....which god could they be talking about, a mystery for the ages.....
That is not cherry picking, that is the whole tree.....
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spinnerdegrassi
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If they wanted jesus' taint licked then they should have put his name in there and call themselves the Jesus Scouts. If they stick god, then it means any god, and the jewish kid isn't going to follow some bullshit by a christian god and his rules that have no pertinence to his morality. He goes by the morals that tie to his religion. Now if he's a reform jew, being a homo isn't an issue, so he's not compromised by being gay and being a scout.
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gr8Dad
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Actually, the Boy Scouts were founded by the MORMONS, so you might wanna re-adjust which "God" they are talking about. It was written that way to be as INCLUSIVE as possible.
Maybe you can answer, which part of the bible says to reject homosexual CHILDREN?
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Redlegg
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and now we have moved on from the tree, to the entire orchard...
Too funny, complaining about an organization that rejects homosexual adults, while supporting an organization that.................rejects homosexual adults....
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gr8Dad
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"Too funny, complaining about an organization that rejects homosexual adults, while supporting an organization that.................rejects homosexual adults...."
What? I am complaining because the Baptist churches are rejecting homosexual CHILDREN. But I understand, there is ABSOLUTELY no moral way to support this, but you STARTED supporting it, so you have to continue. I don't envy your position at all. Maybe if you stopped trying to JUDGE everyone (like your book tells you NOT to do), you would have an easier time decrying those who ARE breaking the rules.
Or, MAYBE, we could end this RIGHT NOW, and you could point to me where, in the bible, it says to REJECT gay children?
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Redlegg
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Actually, the Boy Scouts were founded by the MORMONS, so you might wanna re-adjust which "God" they are talking about.
Well, how about you clear that up for spinner and I, which God are they talking about?
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gr8Dad
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Or you could ANSWER THE FVCKING QUESTION. WHERE, in the BIBLE does it say to REJECDT GAY CHILDREN?
You can twist and change the goal posts and change the topic, but the Southern Baptist Convention is eliminating ALL Boyscouts, because there MIGHT be a GAY SCOUT in there somewhere. So TELL ME where the BIBLICAL BACKING is for such an ASSH0LE move?
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Redlegg
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What? I am complaining because the Baptist churches are rejecting homosexual CHILDREN.
Well, it is an equal opportunity rejection, because they seem to be rejecting the straight ones too....I wonder if they just kicked all the male children out of their church... or maybe they just stopped supporting an organization they disagree with.
And where exactly did I support them.....which if I supported anything, it would be their right to make that decision, just as I support the Boy scouts right to make theirs....
What's next, the boy scouts are evil because they promote children using guns....wait for it......
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Sherron
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"So TELL ME where the BIBLICAL BACKING is for such an ASSH0LE move? "
So you consider them cherry picking hypocrites... they are cherry picking hypocrites who have the right to be cherry picking hypocrites. Why would they have the obligation to open their doors to any organization they disagree with, because you and spinner deem this is how their faith is to be practiced? I'm sure the temples, mosques and sweat lodges will continue to welcome the boy scouts with open arms and will gladly sponsor even more boy scout groups.
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gr8Dad
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"And where exactly did I support them...."
Nowhere, you have COMPLETELY disavowed yourself from them, WTF was I thinking, I thought we were debating, but since you are DENYING being on their side...well, I guess we AGREE that they are being assh0les, right?
"which if I supported anything, it would be their right to make that decision, just as I support the Boy scouts right to make theirs...."
Sure, and the people who supported bans on interracial marriage weren't RACISTS, they were just supporting a town/city/state's right to make that decision, right? What a load of horsesh!t.
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gr8Dad
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"So you consider them cherry picking hypocrites... they are cherry picking hypocrites who have the right to be cherry picking hypocrites."
Of course they have the right to do that. Just like the Klan has the right to say what they want. And as a society, WE have the right to call them what they are, hypocrites and homophobes.
"Why would they have the obligation to open their doors to any organization they disagree with"
Because the REASON they disagree with them has NOTHING to do with their biblical teachings. Unless, of course, YOU can show me where the bible says you should REJECT gay children.
"because you and spinner deem this is how their faith is to be practiced?"
No, it is because they CLAIM to practice "Hate the sin, love the sinner"...and they kick out CHILDREN, because ONE of them MIGHT be gay. That is in DIRECT violation of THEIR rules.
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Redlegg
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bwaaahhhh, the race card......I guess that just means if the southern Baptists are racist, so are the boy scouts...
it just gets better and better.....
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spinnerdegrassi
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It's funny how assholes can use religion to justify their beliefs as being correct. Usually it's the christians shitting on the muslims for that notion. But when it's christians being the assholes for their actions....the puffed up posturing comes in full force because...wait for it....Da Bible says dem homos are bad!!!!!
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gr8Dad
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Well, obviously you are unable to answer the question or stay on topic (or follow a normal conversation, it appears), so have a great day.
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gr8Dad
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Of course, the bible ALSO says to KILL homosexuals...butyou will find FEW Christians who will do that, because, well, "God didn't MEAN that..."
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Sherron
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"Of course they have the right to do that. Just like the Klan has the right to say what they want. And as a society, WE have the right to call them what they are, hypocrites and homophobes."
You are expressing your opinion, you are not speaking for society, unless you want to claim that Christians aren't part of society. You want to call them hypocrites and homophobes for practicing their faith according to their believes, knock yourself out. I'm sure they care...
"Because the REASON they disagree with them has NOTHING to do with their biblical teachings. Unless, of course, YOU can show me where the bible says you should REJECT gay children."
That is your opinion, I have no need to disprove it, you are entitled to believe as you wish, just like the Southern Baptists.
"No, it is because they CLAIM to practice "Hate the sin, love the sinner"...and they kick out CHILDREN, because ONE of them MIGHT be gay. That is in DIRECT violation of THEIR rules."
In direct violation of their rules, too funny, an atheist wanting to tell a Christian what their rules are. I guess it's easy to criticize other people's standards, especially when you have so few yourself.
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Sherron
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"Of course, the bible ALSO says to KILL homosexuals...butyou will find FEW Christians who will do that, because, well, "God didn't MEAN that..." "
Are the Christians in your life "true Christians" or hypocrites according to your standards for them?
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gr8Dad
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"You want to call them hypocrites and homophobes for practicing their faith according to their believes, knock yourself out. I'm sure they care..."
That is just it, they are NOT following their OWN beiefs, which EXPRESSLY state that you love the sinner, hate the sin, and that CHILDREN, having not reached the age of reason, are not accountable for sins until a certain age.
Of course, if YOU could present WHAT part of the bible says to reject gay children, perhaps I could reconsider. Its funny, really, a ROOM full of Christians, some of whom are PROBABLY Baptists, and NO ONE can substantiate what they are claiming is a COMMON LAW from the Christian Baptists.
"That is your opinion, I have no need to disprove it, you are entitled to believe as you wish, just like the Southern Baptists."
Why not just nut the fvck up and ADMIT you don't know or it doesn't exist?
"In direct violation of their rules, too funny, an atheist wanting to tell a Christian what their rules are."
Well, it is what they ADVERTISE as their rules. But you are right, its not my place as an atheist to say that. So, as a Christian, what part of the bible says to reject gay children?
"I guess it's easy to criticize other people's standards, especially when you have so few yourself."
Yeah, cause before CHRISTIANS< there were NO standards, right? Well, Ms Christian, TELL me what part of YOUR bible says you are to REJECT the sinner because of their desire to sin?
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gr8Dad
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Many are hypocrites, and those that are, I call it like I see it.
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Sherron
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"That is just it, they are NOT following their OWN beiefs, which EXPRESSLY state that you love the sinner, hate the sin, and that CHILDREN, having not reached the age of reason, are not accountable for sins until a certain age."
What is the age of reason?
"Of course, if YOU could present WHAT part of the bible says to reject gay children, perhaps I could reconsider. Its funny, really, a ROOM full of Christians, some of whom are PROBABLY Baptists, and NO ONE can substantiate what they are claiming is a COMMON LAW from the Christian Baptists."
I'm not claiming anything, I support their right to practice their religion within the law and according to their believes.
"Why not just nut the fvck up and ADMIT you don't know or it doesn't exist?"
I have no need to prove you wrong. You are entitled to your believes and opinions.
"Well, it is what they ADVERTISE as their rules. But you are right, its not my place as an atheist to say that. So, as a Christian, what part of the bible says to reject gay children?"
tinyurl.com/lozbgnf
"Yeah, cause before CHRISTIANS< there were NO standards, right? Well, Ms Christian, TELL me what part of YOUR bible says you are to REJECT the sinner because of their desire to sin?"
I said few, comparatively. But if you tell me you have none, I will take your word for it. What part of the article said they rejected anyone?
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Sherron
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"Many are hypocrites, and those that are, I call it like I see it."
Well, at least they feel free to practice it freely.
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gr8Dad
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"What is the age of reason?"
Yeah, sure, no prob, as soon as you answer MY question, which YOU have stated can, apparently ONLY be known to a Christian, and I will answer yours.
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spinnerdegrassi
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[quote]Many are hypocrites, and those that are, I call it like I see it. [/quote]
I always like the ones who proclaim themselves to be good christians, yet have bastard children, cheat on spouses, are drunks........and that's just the pastors.
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Sherron
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"Yeah, sure, no prob, as soon as you answer MY question, which YOU have stated can, apparently ONLY be known to a Christian, and I will answer yours."
Which question, and where did I say an answer is only known to a Christian??
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Redlegg
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I always like the ones who proclaim themselves to be good christians, yet have bastard children, cheat on spouses, are drunks........and that's just the pastors.
I know right, like the tolerant ones, except for what they are not tolerant of...and that's just your average person....
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spinnerdegrassi
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I'm not the one cheating on my spouse, producing bastard children, and getting drunk on boone's farm and then proclaiming I'm a good follower of a religion which states not to do any of the above. Nothing to do with tolerance. Everything to do with being full of sh!t.
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gr8Dad
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Where in the bible does it state that good Christians have to reject gay children? I have only asked it a dozen times or so in this thread alone, I can see how you missed it.
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Sherron
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"Where in the bible does it state that good Christians have to reject gay children? I have only asked it a dozen times or so in this thread alone, I can see how you missed it."
Sorry you missed the answer, I will repost it for you:
tinyurl.com/lozbgnf
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gr8Dad
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I do not go to OTHER sites, sum it up, give me a NUMBER (you know, they DID number the bible for JUST these cases).
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spinnerdegrassi
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It's just some generalized commentary on homosexuality. Nothing specific regarding rejecting kids.
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Sherron
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"I do not go to OTHER sites, sum it up, give me a NUMBER (you know, they DID number the bible for JUST these cases). "
I humored you... you want to demand answers and then dictate the format in which I give it, I'm not going to play these games with you. As I've said, the answer to your question doesn't matter, Christians will never meet your standards, they will always be hypocrites and homophobes in your opinion, and that is ok, it does not detract from their right to practice their faith according to their believes and within the law. Your approval is not needed.
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Sherron
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"It's just some generalized commentary on homosexuality. Nothing specific regarding rejecting kids."
Well done, Tonto.
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spinnerdegrassi
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Sure thing goebbels.
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gr8Dad
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"I humored you... you want to demand answers and then dictate the format in which I give it, I'm not going to play these games with you."
Actually, I ASKED a question, a NUMBER of times. It was only when YOU began to demand answers, after IGNORING my question, that I DEMANDED. So the GAME PLAYING is yours.
"As I've said, the answer to your question doesn't matter, Christians will never meet your standards"
Why would you say that? I mean if a cop walked up to you and said, "I am arresting you for wearing green." You would ask WHAT law prohibited you from wearing GREEN< correct? So asking what rule in the BIBLE says to reject gay kids, a CHRISTIAN, who is DEFENDING another Christian group, should EASILY be able to answer. But you CAN'T. because there is NOTHING in the bible about rejecting gay children, it is a ASSH)LE move, and you DAMN well know it.
But they are CHRISTIAN< so you will defend them REGARDLESS. Oddly enough, MOST atheists will call an atheist racist EXACTLY what he is, a RACIST. But we are not as GOOD as you folks....soooo.
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Sherron
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"Actually, I ASKED a question, a NUMBER of times. It was only when YOU began to demand answers, after IGNORING my question, that I DEMANDED. So the GAME PLAYING is yours. "
Not really... your question was in regard to children, I asked what the age of reason is, since that defines children. The question I asked was needed to answer yours.
"Why would you say that? I mean if a cop walked up to you and said, "I am arresting you for wearing green." You would ask WHAT law prohibited you from wearing GREEN< correct? So asking what rule in the BIBLE says to reject gay kids, a CHRISTIAN, who is DEFENDING another Christian group, should EASILY be able to answer. But you CAN'T. because there is NOTHING in the bible about rejecting gay children, it is a ASSH)LE move, and you DAMN well know it."
See, this is where you're changing the topic, I support a church's right to practice their religion according to their believes and within the law. If they're following the law, it's none of my business how hypocritical or homophobic they are for following their own rules, it doesn't affect me, other than I support their right to do so.
"But they are CHRISTIAN< so you will defend them REGARDLESS. Oddly enough, MOST atheists will call an atheist racist EXACTLY what he is, a RACIST. But we are not as GOOD as you folks....soooo."
I will defend anyone's right to practice their religion according to their believes and within the law. Don't you??
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Gecko
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And YOU are defending this.
---> Am I? Or am I simply responding to your rhetoric?
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gr8Dad
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"Not really... your question was in regard to children, I asked what the age of reason is, since that defines children. The question I asked was needed to answer yours."
Fine, the age at which Scouting BEGINS is ten. So lets say TEN. Now you have your answer, you should be able to tell me where in the bible it says to reject gay children. Of course, I would accept ANY quote from the bible that says to reject a gay child of ANY age.
"I support a church's right to practice their religion according to their believes and within the law."
Right, beliefs that come from the BIBLE. So where does it say to hate and reject the SINNER in the bible?
"If they're following the law, it's none of my business how hypocritical or homophobic they are for following their own rules, it doesn't affect me, other than I support their right to do so."
Fine, it in NO WAY affects you. So STFU and get off the thread. But if you want to REMAIN and DEBATE, well, I guess you have to pick a side. As the Dante quote goes, there is a special place in hell for those that retain their nuetrality in times of moral crisis.
"I will defend anyone's right to practice their religion according to their believes and within the law. Don't you??"
Yep, and as I =have said MUTLIPLE times in this thread, I DO support their "right" to do it, but just like the Klan, the NBP Party, NAMBLA, etc. But I will call a spade a spade, regardless of that spades RIGHT to be a spade.
Apparently, you want to stand on the side lines, NOT take a stand, and pretend you are NOT okay with it. Fvck off Sherron, I am DONE with your [censored]. Play your little games somewhere else. At least Red and the other defenders stand by their position.
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Gecko
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Actually, CHRIST didn't set ANYONE "aside". If you believe the stories, he hung out with the scum of the earth, who NEEDED saving.
---> Wow...I may not agree with homosexuality, but I would never call gay children 'scum' or say that they need 'saving'.
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gr8Dad
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Of course you are not. You know, for a group that is supposedly backed by an ALL POWERFUL BEING, you people have NO SPINE at ALL. Talk all you want about Muslim leaders refusing to stand up to the extremists, and then when facing something similar, you do the EXACT same thing. You and your ilk DISGUST me.
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gr8Dad
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"---> Wow...I may not agree with homosexuality, but I would never call gay children 'scum' or say that they need 'saving'."
Yeah, thats was what I said, you have a fi rm grasp of ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING. The CHURCH thinks homosexuality is a sin, thus the CHURCH has labeled GAY CHILDREN to be SINNERS. And THEIR OWN FVCKING RULES say that they are to hate the SIN, and SUPPORT the sinner. Yet THIS church is REJECTING the POSSIBILITY that one of the KIDS might be a sinner.
I am SUPPORTING the kids, YOU are supporting a group that want to REJECT the kids. I wonder if your sister is aware of your utterly SPINELESS hatred? At least the church is being UPFRONT about it.
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Gecko
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Of course you are not.
---> ROFLMEO! First you say I'm defending them and my number went up on the 'creepy Christian' scale and now you're saying that I'm not and that me and my ilk disgust you. So in other words, there is NO discussion, NO debate...just you spoiling for a fight and tossing out insults as usual because no one wants to play your silly little game.
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Gecko
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Hmmmmmm...you can't get me to 'debate', so now you're going to drag my family into it? Can you possibly get much lower?
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Sherron
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"Fine, it in NO WAY affects you. So STFU and get off the thread. But if you want to REMAIN and DEBATE, well, I guess you have to pick a side. As the Dante quote goes, there is a special place in hell for those that retain their nuetrality in times of moral crisis."
You don't get to decide what does and does not affect me, and I have picked a side... I defend their right to practice their religion according to their believes and within the law... and I support your right to call them hypocrites and homophobes... it's really not complicated. Is the problem with my stand that you can't argue against it...
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Sherron
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"I am SUPPORTING the kids, YOU are supporting a group that want to REJECT the kids."
How can you support a group that rejects gay adults?
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gr8Dad
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Its called SARCASM, maybe you could take a course and learn to recognize it. And, BEING sarcasm, saying you WEREN'T defending them in a sarcastic tone, means you ARE defending them. There, I saved you some tuition.
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gr8Dad
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"You don't get to decide what does and does not affect me, and I have picked a side... I defend their right to practice their religion according to their believes and within the law..."
Right, and when their VERY actions VIOLATE their LAW, they should be called on it, right?
"Is the problem with my stand that you can't argue against it..."
No, the problem is that you haven't TAKEN a stand. You keep saying you respect THEIR right to follow THEIR rules...but they are OBVIOUSLY violating their OWN rules, and yet you are IGNORING that fact, which tells me that you HAVEn"T taken a stand.
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gr8Dad
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"How can you support a group that rejects gay adults?"
Because it is a CHRISTIAN group, that is FINALLY making a move forward, in a positive direction. THAT I support.
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Sherron
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"Right, and when their VERY actions VIOLATE their LAW, they should be called on it, right?"
Sure, call them on it, take them to court, throw the book at them.
"No, the problem is that you haven't TAKEN a stand. You keep saying you respect THEIR right to follow THEIR rules...but they are OBVIOUSLY violating their OWN rules, and yet you are IGNORING that fact, which tells me that you HAVEn"T taken a stand. "
No, I'm just okay with them being hypocrites... we all are, Christians, atheists, whatever your belief system.
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Sherron
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"Because it is a CHRISTIAN group, that is FINALLY making a move forward, in a positive direction. THAT I support. "
Did you support the boy scouts before they moved forward in that positive direction?
And thanks for clearing that up for Red and spinner, which God they're talking about.
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Gecko
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Its called SARCASM....
---> So you were only being 'sarcastic' when you said I went up on the 'creepy Christian' scale...you really didn't mean to be insulting? So you were only being 'sarcastic' when you said that 'me and my ilk' disgusts you...you really didn't mean to be insulting? And you were only being 'sarcastic', instead of insulting when you brought my sister into the conversation about my 'spineless hatred'? BAER
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Gecko
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Actually, the Boy Scouts were founded by the MORMONS
---> No...they weren't. William Dickson "W. D." Boyce is the founder of the Boy Scouts and he was a Presbyterian. He modeled it after the Boy Scout Association in Britain. The 'religious' aspects by established by James E. West who was an attorney, children's advocate and Mason.
which part of the bible says to reject homosexual CHILDREN
---> That's kind of a load question because 1) I don't believe the Bible says anything about 'rejecting' homosexuals and 2) I don't believe the Bible distinguishes between adults and children when it discusses homosexuality. I mean...it there a different name for homosexual children than there is for homosexual adults?
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Gecko
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Because it is a CHRISTIAN group, that is FINALLY making a move forward, in a positive direction. THAT I support.
---> So you're allowed to "support" the group YOUR way, but Sherron isn't allowed to do the same.
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spinnerdegrassi
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[quote]
No, I'm just okay with them being hypocrites... we all are, Christians, atheists, whatever your belief system. [/quote]
No, it's just the Christians.
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Sherron
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You know, I'm not sure what's funnier... that you guys want to apply a standard you believe is false, based on a book you believe is a fairy tale, to Christians, or that you get mad when Christians want to apply a standard they believe is true to you... like that pesky going to hell thingy...
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finz
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[quote]"Where in the bible does it state that good Christians have to reject gay children? I have only asked it a dozen times or so in this thread alone, I can see how you missed it."
Sorry you missed the answer, I will repost it for you:
tinyurl.com/lozbgnf [/quote]
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I read your 'answer', but can't seem to find anything in that wiki article that actually answers the question that gr8dad has repeatedly posed.
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finz
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[quote]"I do not go to OTHER sites, sum it up, give me a NUMBER (you know, they DID number the bible for JUST these cases). "
I humored you... you want to demand answers and then dictate the format in which I give it, I'm not going to play these games with you. As I've said, the answer to your question doesn't matter, Christians will never meet your standards, they will always be hypocrites and homophobes in your opinion, and that is ok, it does not detract from their right to practice their faith according to their believes and within the law. Your approval is not needed. [/quote]
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In THIS case, his issue seems to be that you have snidely commented that you HAVE answered his question, but you have not.
If you don't know the answer, it's customary to not waste everyone's time by raising your hand to indicate that you have the answer, send us to a lengthy link that does not address the question at hand, and get snarky when it is correctly pointed out that we are still waiting for an answer to the question.
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finz
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[quote]Actually, CHRIST didn't set ANYONE "aside". If you believe the stories, he hung out with the scum of the earth, who NEEDED saving.
---> Wow...I may not agree with homosexuality, but I would never call gay children 'scum' or say that they need 'saving'. [/quote]
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Wow.....Who would say that ? Odd that your mind would jump to think that anyone would say such a thing.
Out of curiosity, if homosexuality is not to be "agreed with" but homosexuals don't "need saving" is it because you understand that they may already be saved, respect that they might not want to be saved in accordance with someone else's rigid thinking, or consider them not worth saving ?
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finz
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[quote][quote]
No, I'm just okay with them being hypocrites... we all are, Christians, atheists, whatever your belief system. [/quote]
No, it's just the Christians. [/quote]
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Hey now, in this case it's just the Southern Baptist Christians.
I can't imagine my Christian church banning the Boy Scouts. <Insert inappropriate comment about Catholic pedophile priests here>
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spinnerdegrassi
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[quote]You know, I'm not sure what's funnier... that you guys want to apply a standard you believe is false, based on a book you believe is a fairy tale, to Christians, or that you get mad when Christians want to apply a standard they believe is true to you... like that pesky going to hell thingy... [/quote]
The southern baptists can do what they want. I'm just calling them out for the douchebag's that they are. They're to be pointed and laughed at for their idiocy.
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Avaya
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[quote]So, as a Christian, could you point me to the Christian teaching in the bible that says not to associate with or teach woodland/nature skills to homosexuals? [/quote]
John 17:14-22
14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
2 Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Romans 12:2 "Do not be confirmed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may know the good, acceptable and perfect will of God."
John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
All verses where He instructs Christians to be in the world but not to be part of it. Fellowship and association with those who are "of this world" (defined as non-Christians; people who are worldly minded vs. eternally minded) are to be avoided. The church is simply disassociating themselves with an organization that has chosen to be 'of this world' in their basic foundation.
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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gr8Dad
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"Did you support the boy scouts before they moved forward in that positive direction?"
Nope, pulled my oldest out when the policy became public (and honestly, was unaware of it before then) and never signed youngest up (we do 4H instead). Daughter was a Girl Scout for a while, pulled her when I realized it had become "The Feminazis in the Woods"...
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gr8Dad
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"Hmmmmmm...you can't get me to 'debate', so now you're going to drag my family into it? Can you possibly get much lower?"
First of all, this is MY thread, so YOU come onto it, and want to "debate" (else why would you come onto a thread and offer an opposing view), now you are saying I can't GET you to debate. Well, if you are not here to DEBATE, then say your piece and go away. If you ARE here to debate, well, then its not my job to GET you to debate. Other than that, you are just here to fvck with me, in which case, again, go away.
As for bringing you FAMILY into it, yeah, that SOUNDS good, IF I was insulting your family. I PITY your sister. She has YOU to put up with. I was NOT insulting your sister, I was expressing how HARD it must have been for her to have such a BIGOT and BYTCH for a sister, as she grew up gay in what was OBVIOUSLY a hostile environment.
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gr8Dad
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Are you fvcking THREE YEARS OLD? Just because a post STARTS with a sarcastic remark, does not mean the ENTIRE THING is sarcasm. Matter of fact, the most common USE of sarcasm is that in which the FIRST line or two is sarcastic, and that only becomes apparent when reading the REST of the paragraphs.
And you either DON'T know that and are a MORON, or you DO know that and are acting ignorant. If i HAD to chose, I would take the chinese menu option, and say that you are a MORON, acting IGNORANT.
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gr8Dad
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Well, first I will say that I WAS mistaken about thew Mormons founding the Boy Scouts. It was based on the teachings and activities of Frederick Russell Burnham, who was a child of missionary parents (obviously where the Mormon thing got started, but he was not a Mormon missionary).
"William Dickson "W. D." Boyce is the founder of the Boy Scouts and he was a Presbyterian. He modeled it after the Boy Scout Association in Britain."
I think you are referring to the BSA, or Boy Scouts of America.
"---> That's kind of a load question because 1) I don't believe the Bible says anything about 'rejecting' homosexuals"
Okay, so the Southern Baptist Convention is basing its bioy scout boycott on a FALSE belief, right?
"2) I don't believe the Bible distinguishes between adults and children when it discusses homosexuality."
Well, it does, specifically "call boys" or old time sexual "slaves" that were used for gratification by adults.
" I mean...it there a different name for homosexual children than there is for homosexual adults?"
Biblically, yes. I would explain it to you, but its YOUR book, maybe you should READ IT.
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gr8Dad
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Actually, having BEEN a Catholic, and NOT been proud of what the PEOPLE in the church have done (ie, pedophile priests, the cover up, etc), I was PROUD to see the stance that the Catholic Church has taken on this issue. They see no need to adjust ANYTHING< because we are talking about CHILDREN. Not contemplating going BACK, but I am proud of their stance.
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gr8Dad
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That is actually an interesting thing to delve into. Where I see a problem with that thinking, from MY opinion, of course, is that it is a self fufilling prophecy. You are making the assumption that homosexuals are "unclean" or "this worldly", and then using quotes from the bible with those descriptions and applying them to homosexuals.
Do you have a NEW TESTAMENT quote that SPECIFICALLY defines homosexuals as "unclean" or not worthy of saving?
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Redlegg
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Now it just get's even funnier, since the church was brought into it.
The Boy Scouts are just as bad as the church, but you would never know it. They did the exact same thing, except since they are not a church, there is no need to take them down a peg.
A good read:
Scout's Honor: Sexual Abuse in America's Most Trusted Institution
Scout's Honor details decades of sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts, one of the country's most respected youth organizations. Drawing on interviews with victims, lawyers, prosecutors, and even convicted molesters, Patrick Boyle paints a distressing but accurate picture of betrayal in a place we all thought was safe.
About the Author:
Patrick Boyle is a veteran journalist whose reports on child abuse, mental illness, and drug addiction have won awards from the Society of Professional Journalists, the National Headliner Awards, the Missouri School of Journalism, and others. He has been a reporter for many newspapers, including the Washington Times, and a freelance reporter for the New York Times, ABC News, Woman's Day, Spy, and the American Journalism Review.
“We said they had 75 years of secret files about pedophiles, and that’s the way the evidence came in. I think that fact in itself was just staggering to the jury,” said Clark, Lewis’s lawyer. “They had a regular practice of placing guys on probation and then they would allow them to continue to be active in Scouting, not unlike some of what you saw in the Catholic church.”
Between the Church, The boy scouts, and the public school system, turns out the church is the safest. But the deniers will deny, insist that those facts do not matter, and continue to praise the boy scouts.....
At least they did not allow gay males to be scout leaders.
Bob Parks: " How would moms feel if a male scoutmaster took little girl scouts into the woods unescorted? Same reasoning applies to gays and the Boy Scouts. No bigotry here; just common sense."
maybe the biggest mistake was the Church sponsoring them in the first place...
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Gecko
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Odd that your mind would jump to think that anyone would say such a thing.
---> I was simply channeling Gr8Dad. He's really good at taking a person's response and then twisting it to mean something entirely different and then attacking it for it. And as you can tell by his response, he doesn't like it either.
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gr8Dad
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You know what, I have been NICE so far, but you are becoming a COMPLETE CVNT. I did not twist words, YOU took MY statement and twisted it, and, again, we face the impossible to answer question, are you REALLY that fvcking stupid, or are you just THAT ignorant? And AGAIN, I think its a little of both.
Of course, its pretty easy to play your little game when its just you and your little merry band of Super Christians, but when someone ELSE sees your bullsh!t, all of a sudden your on the defensive.
Well, OH GREAT GECKO, shut the fvck up and act like an adult, or stay the HELL off my threads.
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Gecko
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Yeah, thats was what I said, you have a fi rm grasp of ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING.
---> I'm glad that you finally looked in the mirror. Sucks when someone takes what you say and then twists it doesn't it?
The CHURCH thinks homosexuality is a sin, thus the CHURCH has labeled GAY CHILDREN to be SINNERS.
---> Not understanding your point here? Are you saying that it's okay to 'label' (your word, not mine) homosexual adults as sinners, but not homosexual children?
And THEIR OWN FVCKING RULES say that they are to hate the SIN, and SUPPORT the sinner.
---> Actually, it's not a "rule" per se. In 423AD, St Augustine wrote a letter (211) in which he said "Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum", which roughly translates roughly to "With love for mankind and hatred of sins." The more common version of "love the sinner but hate the sin" or "hate the sin and not the sinner" appeared in Gandhi's 1929 autobiography.
---> With that said, there is plenty of scripture that supports the premise of what both St Augustine and Gandhi were saying, but in NO WAY is there ANY suggestion that one is supposed to 'support' someone in their sin.
YOU are supporting a group that want to REJECT the kids.
---> Where are you getting your information from? In what post did I say this? Or is this just you once again making assumptions or twisting information?
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gr8Dad
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"---> I'm glad that you finally looked in the mirror. Sucks when someone takes what you say and then twists it doesn't it?"
Are you smoking CRACK? Is there a GAS leak in your trailer? YOU came on THIS thread and accused ME of twisting YOUR words...now you are ADMITTING that YOU were twisting MY words?!?! WTF is wrong with you?
"---> Not understanding your point here? Are you saying that it's okay to 'label' (your word, not mine) homosexual adults as sinners, but not homosexual children?"
No, I was quite clear, but I guess that doesn't work for you, cause its WORK to twist clear words. By refusing to continue to sponsor BSA at their churches, BECAUSE the BSA now allow gay children to join, they have labelled the CHILDREN as unacceptable and unwanted (due to their belief that this is a SIN). It was clear as a bell.
"---> Actually, it's not a "rule" per se. In 423AD, St Augustine wrote a letter (211) in which he said "Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum", which roughly translates roughly to "With love for mankind and hatred of sins." The more common version of "love the sinner but hate the sin" or "hate the sin and not the sinner" appeared in Gandhi's 1929 autobiography."
Ah, sure, no TWISTING going on there, "Ha! Its NOT a RULE, its a FOUNDATION of the VERY THEOLOGY of the church...HA!" Damn you are a piece of sh!t.
"---> With that said, there is plenty of scripture that supports the premise of what both St Augustine and Gandhi were saying, but in NO WAY is there ANY suggestion that one is supposed to 'support' someone in their sin."
Ah, so the great NON twister now ADDS words. I did NOT say SUPPORT THE SINNER WITH THEIR SIN, I said SUPPORT THE SINNER. No one is suggesting the church is to offer KY and butt fvck rooms, just treat them like, well, I don't know, how to put this, OH YEAH, FVCKING CHRISTIANS!
"---> Where are you getting your information from? In what post did I say this? Or is this just you once again making assumptions or twisting information? "
OKAY THIS IS SARCASM.
Yeah, you haven't supported them at ALL, you have done nothing but criticize them, got it.
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Gecko
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You know what, I have been NICE so far.....
---> Really?!? Calling me a "creepy Christian" is 'nice'? (#803296) Saying "you and your ilk disgust me" is 'nice'? (#803344) Calling me "spineless" is 'nice'? (#803345) Calling me a "bigot" and a "bytch" is 'nice'? (#803379) Calling me a "moron" is 'nice'? (#803380)
I did not twist words....
---> Ummm...yes you did/do...all the time. I asked a question (#803288) and from that you twisted it into that I was defending them (#803296). You confirmed that twisting in #803344, #803350 and #803345. And that's just me, I can also provide examples of where you twisted Sherron and Red's words.
Of course, its pretty easy to play your little game when its just you and your little merry band of Super Christians, but when someone ELSE sees your bullsh!t, all of a sudden your on the defensive.
---> Huh? Super Christians? Bullsh!t! Defensive?
OH GREAT GECKO
---> At last, something I can agree with. :)
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Sherron
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"If you don't know the answer, it's customary to not waste everyone's time by raising your hand to indicate that you have the answer, send us to a lengthy link that does not address the question at hand, and get snarky when it is correctly pointed out that we are still waiting for an answer to the question."
Well, finz, if as a practicing catholic you are looking to me for answers about Christianity, you have bigger issues than having wasted your time reading a link. Tell me where in the Bible anyone is supposed to accept unrepentant sinners, where in the Bible is a church expected to financially support an organization that openly condones sinning? So save your sanctimonious bull$hit, if you were really concerned you would explain your own hypocrisy... and you would also be just as curious as to why gr8 doesn't answer, and plays the race card, and on, and on, and on.
By the way... I didn't make a religious argument, but I guess you missed that. If you don't think they should have the right to support who they want to, that is your right as well, but save your individualized critique and judgment for others, it is not needed here. But your special attention to me as opposed to the issue is flattering. Then again, why waste your time on the issue, you don't follow your own rules, just like gr8 is talking about.
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Sherron
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"The southern baptists can do what they want. I'm just calling them out for the douchebag's that they are. They're to be pointed and laughed at for their idiocy."
We agree then... they can practice their faith according to their beliefs, and people can respond to them as they choose to... are the boy scouts douchebags for banning adult gays? Is it hypocrisy or douchbaggery to call out the douchbaggery of the church, but not the boy scouts, and insist it is only the Christians? We can just call it douchepocrisy.
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spinnerdegrassi
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Nope, it's still only christians. A bunch of christians losers getting mad because other chrisitians losers don't discriminate at the level they want based on what a book tells them to think.
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Redlegg
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douchepocrisy......perfect.....
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Gecko
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Are you smoking CRACK? Is there a GAS leak in your trailer? YOU came on THIS thread and accused ME of twisting YOUR words...now you are ADMITTING that YOU were twisting MY words?!?! WTF is wrong with you?
---> Have never smoked crack in my life. I don't live in a trailer AND don't have gas. You DID twist my words. And yes, I did admit that I deliberately twisted your words...too bad you can't do the same. Nothing wrong with me, just wanted you to experience what it was like to have someone twist what you were saying; obviously you didn't get it.
No, I was quite clear.....
---> No. 1) I did a keyword search for "call boys" in multiple versions of the Bible and found nothing. I then Googled "call boys" and Bible and discovered that 'call boys' is a CURRENT term, so you're wrong there. And FYI, the reason it came up in the search was because of the title of the article which included "In Biblical Times In The Greco-Roman World".
---> No. 2) I did a search for 'sex slaves' in multiple versions of the Bible and found nothing. I then Googled the same and all I found were sites like one where this gal was trying to prove that the Bible supported 'sex slavery' and 'sex trafficking' and even gave instructions on how to do it. Like you, she was really good at taking things out of context or only highlighting what supported her view. She makes it sound like the Bible says that it was okay to capture a woman you desire and keep her for sexual purposes until you tired of her. But it says right there in the scripture she posted that the woman is desired as a WIFE, that she is NOT slave period.
---> No. 3) And when you tell be that there is a Biblical difference between homosexual children and adults, but you're not going to tell me...oh yeah, that is real clear (NOT).
Ah, sure, no TWISTING going on there, "Ha! Its NOT a RULE, its a FOUNDATION of the VERY THEOLOGY of the church...HA!"
---> What exactly am I twisting here? It's NOT a rule anymore than 'separation of church and state' is part of the Constitution; it's not like the "Golden Rule" aka Luke 6:31.
---> And I'm not sure how you can say that it's the 'foundation of the very theology of the church' since both Judaism and Christianity PREDATE both of these people.
Ah, so the great NON twister now ADDS words.
---> OMG...I added the words "with that said" so shoot me.
I did NOT say SUPPORT THE SINNER WITH THEIR SIN, I said SUPPORT THE SINNER.
---> And I did NOT SAY SUPPORT THE SINNER WITH THEIR SIN, I said support someone in their sin.
No one is suggesting the church is to offer KY and butt fvck rooms.....
---> I wasn't suggesting it either, so I have no idea where this comes from (or any of the other shyt you come up with).
OKAY THIS IS SARCASM. Yeah, you haven't supported them at ALL, you have done nothing but criticize them, got it.
---> And therein lies the problem, I haven't done either but according to you I have because I haven't. I was just commenting on your asinine comment.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
Posts: 2016
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evangelical atheist
See A sshole
An evangelical atheist is one who not only believes there is no god or other supreme being, but is obsessed with convincing everyone around them to become an atheist too, usually through hard-line intolerance (the kind they accuse other religions of). When cornered they usually try to put down their opponent's religion and bash them for 'blind faith', not realizing that their belief that there is no god is no more or less valid or provable than the other guy's belief that there is one.
Not to be confused with normal atheists/agnostics, who for the most part just dont talk about religion and accept the beliefs of those around them as their perogative. Evangelical atheists are particularly common on the Internet, as organized religion is generally accepted as part of 'the system' of global human society, and lately it's become cool on the Internet to hate 'the system'. Mostly teen angst if you ask me...
Evangelical atheist: "Hi, I'm an atheist."
Other guy: "Cool, I'm Jewish."
Atheist: "YOU FOOL! YOU PRACTICE RELIGION LOL, YOURE A DUMBASS AND IM COOL BECAUSE IM AN ATHEIST. I SHALL NOW PROCEED TO EXPLAIN WHY BLIND FAITH IS DUMB, UNLESS ITS BLIND FAITH IN ATHEISM WHICH IS A COINCIDENTAL EXCEPTION"
Other guy: "Shut it biatch you're a dumbass"
Atheist: "BUT IM AN ATHEIST, WHICH MEANS IM ALWAYS RIGHT. AND IM NOT AN INTOLERANT PRICK LIKE ALL MEMBERS OF RELIGION ARE, HURR HURR HURR."
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spinnerdegrassi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/20/06
Posts: 8000
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Delusional Christian: If you don't believe that Jesus is your lord and savior you're doomed to an eternity in Hell!!!
Logical Person with a Brain: So you mean to tell me that this ghost in the sky used some woman named Mary as a cum dumpster, knocked her up with his ghost sperm, and produced a little jewish kid. This Jewish kid then grew up and tried to convince everyone he was their god, and that when he got his ass nailed to the cross for tagging the hell out of hookers, he tried to pawn it off that he was dying for everyone else's bad behavior.
Delusional Christian: Yes!!!!
Logical Person with a Brain: You're a moron
Delusional Christian: Yes!!!!
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Avaya
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 02/09/06
Posts: 9823
Loc: Arkansas
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[quote]Do you have a NEW TESTAMENT quote that SPECIFICALLY defines homosexuals as "unclean" or not worthy of saving? [/quote]
Romans 1:26-27
New International Version (NIV)
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
New International Version (NIV)
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Timothy 1:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
I do believe that we ALL fit the sinful acts listed in these verses. Being a Christian isn't about a 'free pass' because we are saved by Jesus' blood; however as a Christian, while we might engage in those guilty pleasures, we don't live a lifestyle of it. Homosexuality is a lifestyle of it and that is how I personally differentiate my own acts of sin from the sinful lifestyle. Right or wrong, that is how I see it and that's where I am in my spiritual walk. One of my most frequent prayers is for God to shed light on my wrong comprehension of His word so that I will see people, situations, problems, opportunities, etc the way He sees them.
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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Redlegg
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/05/06
Posts: 26787
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Wait a minute, did you just glom...how sad....or at least it used to be.....
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MinnesotaMom
member
Reged: 01/05/11
Posts: 193
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[quote]No, pointing to OTHER sins or sinners is not the answer. I want to know where the BIBLE says you shouldn't ASSOCIATE with homosexuals (especially CHILDREN). I mean we can debate whether or not the bible is ACTUALLY against homosexuality (there are a NUMBER of translation questions/issues), but that is not the case here. No one is saying they have to ACCPET homosexuality, or PRACTICE it, just allow CHILDREN who are in a NONSEXUAL environment (the BOYSCOUTS) to continue to learn BOYSCOUT (NONSEXUAL) stuff. [/quote]
I believe the point is that a bible based Christian organization cannot continue to support an organization that supports a sinful act, because to do so would mean they are condoning the sinful behavior. Ultimately, the decision has nothing to do with the kids themselves, but with the BSA's National Council policy.
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19880
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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No, pointing to OTHER sins or sinners is not the answer.
---> Ah yes...the old 'do as I say, not as I do'. BAER!
I want to know where the BIBLE says you shouldn't ASSOCIATE with homosexuals (especially CHILDREN). I mean we can debate whether or not the bible is ACTUALLY against homosexuality (there are a NUMBER of translation questions/issues), but that is not the case here.
---> Oh yes...the "CHILDREN". You're just like the government using 'best interest of the children' to keep children away from the non-custodial parent, or leaving the non-custodial parent to live in poverty with high child support awards.
---> First of all, I know of no requirement in the Bible that one has to associate with any kind of 'sinner'. I believe that people have the right to choose who they want to associate with based upon their personal beliefs, codes, morals, feelings, and yes...even religion.
---> Second, if it was the case earlier, why isn't it the case now? The Bible is quite clear that homosexuality is wrong and per your request/demand, Avaya posted New Testament scripture about it.
No one is saying they have to ACCPET homosexuality, or PRACTICE it, just allow CHILDREN who are in a NONSEXUAL environment (the BOYSCOUTS) to continue to learn BOYSCOUT (NONSEXUAL) stuff.
---> First of all, you have made it VERY CLEAR that people who do not accept homosexualty are 'haters', 'homophoboes', 'bigots', etc so trying to now claim that it's 'okay' is bullcatmonekyshit. Second, allowing homosexuals changes the dynamic of that environment the same as if you allowed girls.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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