Sherron
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Crowd stunned after valedictorian rips up speech, recites Lord’s prayer
A South Carolina valedictorian garnered wild applause after he ripped up his pre-approved speech and delivered the Lord’s prayer at his high school graduation on Saturday.
The act was apparently in protest of the Pickens County School District’s decision to no longer include prayer at graduation ceremonies, Christian News reported. Officials said the decision was made after the district was barraged with complaints by atheist groups.
But that didn’t stop Roy Costner IV of Liberty High School. He ripped up his graduation speech for all to see, before he started talking about his Christian upbringing, Christian News reported.
“Those that we look up to, they have helped carve and mold us into the young adults that we are today,” he said. “I’m so glad that both of my parents led me to the Lord at a young age.”
“And I think most of you will understand when I say…” he paused. “Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name…”
The auditorium began to erupt with applause and cheers.
“Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” he continued. “For Thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.”
Pickens County School District spokesman John Eby said that no disciplinary action will be taken against Mr. Costner.
“The bottom line is, we’re not going to punish students for expressing their religious faiths,” he told Christian News. “He’s a graduate now. There’s nothing we can do about it, even if we wanted to.”
Attendee Logan Gibson told reporters that he thought “it took a lot of courage” to do what Mr. Costner did, Christian News reported.
As of noon Wednesday, a YouTube video of the exchange had received almost 45,000 views.
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english7
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South Carolina, go figure.
You know, I think Republicans would do better in upcoming elections if they didn't make religion their principle concern. Remember separation of church and state? Republicans of past did not preach like this. I don't understand why they are so focused on it now.
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spinnerdegrassi
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Attica, Attica!!!! Lol @ showing a lot of courage. Courage would have been him proclaiming allah as god in front of those rednecks. He just towed the company line.
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MinnesotaMom
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Kudos to this young man, who is guaranteed to be flooded with hate and ridicule for standing up for what he believes.
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Redlegg
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South Carolina, go figure.
Yes, they are revolutionary, and have led the way for years....
Remember Church and state, bwaaahhhhh, good one, The founders could not have predicted, constitution, static, etc etc etc, oh wait, I like this one...
Republicans preaching, if anyone has been preaching about what people should do, how they should think, it definitely is not restricted to republicans, you should watch the weekly address once in awhile.
I am not sure proclaiming allah as god in front of a crowd anywhere is a good idea, considering what usually follows it......
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spinnerdegrassi
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Why, it's not like Muslims commit the most murders in this country. It's the christians who are the real enemy people have to worry about here.
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Redlegg
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Actually you would be incorrect, more Christians are murdered in this country. They are the victims of violence in this country, murder, rape, assault.
Sorry, it is just a fact, you can check it with the FBI...
fbi.gov/
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Gecko
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South Carolina, go figure.
---> Go spend some time in North Dakota.
You know, I think Republicans would do better in upcoming elections if they didn't make religion their principle concern. Remember separation of church and state?
---> Remember the First Amendment? Freedom OF religion is the foundation of the country (along with freedom of speech).
Republicans of past did not preach like this. I don't understand why they are so focused on it now.
---> That's because never before in our time has the freedom of religion been under attack and as such, it should be everyone's concern.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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english7
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My religious freedom is not "under attack."
I still think the Republican Party should not define themselves as the Christian Conservative party. It does them no good to exclude the millions of voters who do not identify with that group.
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spinnerdegrassi
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[quote]Actually you would be incorrect, more Christians are murdered in this country. They are the victims of violence in this country, murder, rape, assault.
Sorry, it is just a fact, you can check it with the FBI...
fbi.gov/ [/quote]
Who's doing the murdering? It's christians.
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Redlegg
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But who are the victims ? It's Christians.
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Gecko
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Then no group should 'identify' themselves as anything since it undoubtedly excludes someone, somewhere.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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english7
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We're not talking about "someone, somewhere." "Someone, somewhere" is a ready excuse.
I wanted to make a point that Republicans need to do better if they want to win the next time. They should get off the religion bandwagon (does it work in the ME?) and get oriented to THE PEOPLE.
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Redlegg
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Which religious bandwagon do you mean....
Because I am my brother's keeper....
youtu.be/1YWcyVqPkIo
or I believe in God's command to love thy neighbor.....
youtu.be/H7jgVNee2oE
Politicians that follow a religion are a dime a dozen, but when and who was the last one that ran on the idea, that there should be a national religion, that any religion should be forced on anyone, or that any religion should be made illegal ?
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english7
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I don't disagree that those two ideals/values are important or that doing good for others should not be mentioned in political speech. Is that what you think I mean?
Who ran on the idea of a national religion? No one that I know of.
Who wanted to force religion on people or to make any religion illegal? No one that I can think of.
Do you disagree with my thoughts that the Republican party should not campaign by bringing religion into their rhetoric so often? That's fine if you do. These are just my thought. I'd like to see a Republican candidate who does not do that.
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Redlegg
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Actually it was a response to Republicans should get off the religious bandwagon. The current president has no problem getting on it, and using it to his convenience.
Here is the problem, why does anyone care what religion someone is, or if their values come from that religion ? The only concern should be governing by religion.
Look at our current President, a self admitted lifelong Christian, who follows his religion. Is he a hypocrite, as in all Christians are hypocrites, or do his non religious supporters believe he is just talking the talk to satisfy his low information voters. Is there some kind of secret knowledge around that says we know he isn't really a Christian, how does that work.
No one can name a politician who wants to rule through religion, but somehow, the myth propagates, as it has here, that the republicans are some kind of religious fanatics who want to impose their religion on everyone.
It makes no sense. Should I care if someone is against abortion because of their religion, or if they believe life begins at conception, science gives us no true answer, but somehow the origin of the belief is the issue, and not the belief itself.
If a person lives their life through their religious values, but does not Govern by them, what is the issue.
Which is worse, a person whose religion drives their values, and they freely admit it, or one who says they follow the religion, and then mocks the followers ?
I think the democrats should get off it, the republicans and anyone else in government should get off the bandwagon of imposing religion. As far as their policies go, I don't care where their thoughts come from, only the content. Shall not kill is shall not kill regardless of who thought of it first.
A perfect example is going on right now, with the young lady and a lung transplant. What is the right answer, and what should it be based on?
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Gecko
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We're not talking about "someone, somewhere."
---> What do you think "other voters" are? "Other voter" can be Democrats, Independents, Green Party, etc (someone); they can be in any state (somewhere).
"Someone, somewhere" is a ready excuse.
---> "Ready excuse"?!? What is a 'ready excuse' is tossing in 'separation of church and state' to EXCUSE violating the First Amendment.
I wanted to make a point that Republicans need to do better if they want to win the next time. They should get off the religion bandwagon (does it work in the ME?) and get oriented to THE PEOPLE.
---> Ever consider the it's because of THE PEOPLE, that they are getting on the 'religion bandwagon' as you call it.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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english7
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" The current president has no problem getting on it, and using it to his convenience. "
Should the president not mention religion during the National Prayer Breakfast? That, to me, is the perfect venue for such talk, not when making laws or garnering votes.
"No one can name a politician who wants to rule through religion" I think it's impossible to know, before elected, exactly how a candidate's religion will rule through or by religion. Michele Bachmann gave me the creeps. If anyone would rule that way, it would be she. Saying that God called her to run for House seat kind of sounds like she'd rule by religion, but I can see the other side of it, too. As I recall, she also wanted religious topics taught in schools.
All I'm saying is that I want a Republican candidate who does not speak as if he or she is talking mostly to the religious Right.
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english7
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" Ever consider the it's because of THE PEOPLE, that they are getting on the 'religion bandwagon' as you call it. "
Yes, I've thought of that. But THE PEOPLE must mean some representation of all citizens, not just those who want more religious fervor in a ruler.
Michael Steele was recently interviewed about the future of the GOP, as in the Grand Old Party. He said, "You know, Republicans should run in the communities as they find them, not as you want them to be or think they are. And the moment you sort of get past that pretense and that falsehood that, you know, everybody, you know, is with you because they're with the other guy, you can have a conversation about the things that matter. You can have a conversation about the things that matter to people, as opposed to matter to your party." Sounds to me like he understands the importance of representing THE PEOPLE more generally.
When asked about the Religion Right, he said, "I've said before, we're not a religious party as the GOP. We have religious folks in the party, but that is not the main driver for us."
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Redlegg
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But should he use religion to sell tax increases, at the national prayer breakfast.
Should he use religion at a campaign event. He is on the bandwagon, as much as anyone, when he needs to be. But somehow he avoids the religious label, why is that ? How does a self professed true believer avoid the religious label, when he even uses religion to sell tax increases, and votes. Any candidate, Bachman included, who pushes for legislation to put religion in the classroom would lose my vote. It is not the place to teach religion.
But for some reason you are lumping all republicans into this religious right group, and that is a myth, a total unfounded myth, with zero evidence. As a self professed true believer in Jesus Christ, Where does Obama get his views on life, if not from the religion he says has guided him.
I get it, you can govern without it, like Mitt Romney did in Mass. But where is the evidence, the facts,, or anything to actually prove this whole republicans and religion thing.
"I think it's impossible to know, before elected, exactly how a candidate's religion will rule through or by religion."
There is nothing wrong with having a feeling, and even voting on that feeling, but to present an idea as fact, to back up a feeling when there is no evidence is just not right.
That is no different than the birther movement, a feeling with no evidence.
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english7
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"But for some reason you are lumping all republicans into this religious right group"
How am I doing that?
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Redlegg
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"I still think the Republican Party should not define themselves as the Christian Conservative party."
The republican party, not some republicans, not a few republicans, but the entire republican party...
"You know, I think Republicans would do better in upcoming elections if they didn't make religion their principle concern. Remember separation of church and state? Republicans of past did not preach like this. I don't understand why they are so focused on it now."
The republican party, not some republicans, not a few republicans, but the entire republican party...
"Do you disagree with my thoughts that the Republican party should not campaign by bringing religion into their rhetoric so often? That's fine if you do. These are just my thought. I'd like to see a Republican candidate who does not do that."
The republican party, not some republicans, not a few republicans, but the entire republican party...
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english7
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You are right. I should have said "those in the Republican party who ..." I was generalizing, and I don't mean to. I liked McCain and don't recall thinking that way about him. Then again, I consider him one of the old guard, and they were careful not to bring religion up front.
I still think the Republican Party (and you can say other parties) ought to come together and make this topic a part of their discussion when considering how to win future elections.
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SweetLight
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“You know, I think Republicans would do better in upcoming elections if they didn't make religion their principle concern.
I still think the Republican Party should not define themselves as the Christian Conservative party.
I wanted to make a point that Republicans need to do better if they want to win the next time. They should get off the religion bandwagon
the Republican party should not campaign by bringing religion into their rhetoric so often
I'd like to see a Republican candidate who does not do that.
All I'm saying is that I want a Republican candidate who does not speak as if he or she is talking mostly to the religious Right.
I still think the Republican Party...”
----->We heard you, you keep repeating the same thing. How could you not know that you are lumping all Republicans into this “Religion Right”. I think your “Religion Right” may have been a typo, or possibly a Freudian slip.
----->As a teacher though, are you impressed with the Valedictorian's accomplishments, even though he broke this rule?
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
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From Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for 20 years:
youtube.com/watch?v=hAYe7MT5BxM
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
Posts: 2016
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This video clip really makes me feel sick. Reverend Jeremiah Wright says "God Damn America" repeatedly- 3X (at the 2:00 mark). I’m glad English brought up religion in politics. Sometimes we forget which pews Obama was in for all those years!
thehollywoodgossip.com/videos/jeremiah-wright-clips/
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gr8Dad
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"----->As a teacher though, are you impressed with the Valedictorian's accomplishments, even though he broke this rule?"
Actually, wouldn't it be plagarism?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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english7
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I'm done here. You go Sweetlight, Gr8, Red....
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Gecko
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Sounds to me like he understands the importance of representing THE PEOPLE more generally.
---> He's a politician...it's all bullcatmonkeyshit. He's identifies as a member of a political party and as such, is incapable of truly representing the people. And it's the same with any government 'officer'...whether it's federal, state or your local mayor.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
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I liked McCain and don't recall thinking that way about him. Then again, I consider him one of the old guard, and they were careful not to bring religion up front.
---> Had nothing to do with being careful, but simply because 'religion' wasn't the issue then that it is today. If you objected to saying "one nation under God" or didn't want your kid saying it...ya just didn't say it. If the school was having a Halloween party and you didn't want your kid attending...other arrangements for your child were made. NOT today...oh no...sue the school and make sure that NO ONE gets to say the Pledge or have a party.
---> Say what you want, but religion IS under attack. The First Amendment guarantees the right of freedom OF religion, but there are growing elements that believe that it should be freedom FROM religion. Think of what happened to the USSR under Stalin...religious property was confiscated, religion was ridiculed, believers were harassed, atheism was propagated in the schools; and that's just the nice stuff. We already see a lot of that today...you have certain elements that are demanding that churches should be taxed, we see the ridicule here, we've seen instances of harassment on the news. The ironic thing is...it is BECAUSE of the "godless Communists" that "God" was added to the Pledge and our currency. Seventy plus years later...[censored] is a republic with a huge religious population and we are becoming "godless Socialists".
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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gr8Dad
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"---> Had nothing to do with being careful, but simply because 'religion' wasn't the issue then that it is today."
Because NON Christian religions and atheism represented such a small group, that the Christian religions could over ride and over rule them. That is changing.
"If you objected to saying "one nation under God" or didn't want your kid saying it...ya just didn't say it."
Well, that and it WASN'T IN THE PLEDGE ORIGINALLY.
"If the school was having a Halloween party and you didn't want your kid attending...other arrangements for your child were made. NOT today...oh no...sue the school and make sure that NO ONE gets to say the Pledge or have a party."
LMAO, funny that you mention HALLOWEEN. Having resided in the South for quite a few years, I ASSURE you it was the CHURCHES that took Halloween out of schools, NOT the Atheists.
"---> Say what you want, but religion IS under attack."
You need to stop confusing "under attack" with "they can no longer do what they want". Religion CANNOT be "under attack" as it is a COMPLETELY personal thing. What is "under attack" is the PRIMARILY Christian desire to do what they want where they want, when they want, regardless of the rights of OTHERS to not have to LISTEN to it. And yes, in a PUBLIC SCHOOL, my child has a RIGHT to NOT be exposed to YOUR religious beliefs. Sorry if that pisses you off, but it is a FACT.
"The First Amendment guarantees the right of freedom OF religion, but there are growing elements that believe that it should be freedom FROM religion."
Actually, you are COMPLETELY wrong. The First Ammendment guarantees that you have the right to freely EXERCISE your religion. But YOUR rights end where MINE begin and vice versa. So if the state determines that MY child must go to school, and I do not want MY child learning about YOUR religion, you cannot preach it there.
"Think of what happened to the USSR under Stalin...religious property was confiscated, religion was ridiculed, believers were harassed, atheism was propagated in the schools; and that's just the nice stuff. We already see a lot of that today..."
NONE of that is occuring here, and you know it. No religious property has been confiscated, the GOVERNMENT is not ridiculing religion (PEOPLE do, but that is covered under the first ammendment as well. You get to pray, we get to laugh at you), believers are not harrassed (but do an AWFUL lot of harrassing themselves), etc etc.
The problem with YOUR belief right now is that you ONLY see "religion" as CHRISTIANITY, and I hate to tell ya, but there are others (shh, don't tell the JW's), and they deserve as much respect as YOURS.
"...you have certain elements that are demanding that churches should be taxed, we see the ridicule here, we've seen instances of harassment on the news."
Churches SHOULD be taxed. The same way as any other business. And if that church gives away a all of its money, then it can CLAIM that and take its tax liability to zero. Instead, you have preachers in these Megachurches making seven figures, and not paying ANY tax.
"we see the ridicule here"
I think that would be the same freedom of speech that lets you pray how you want.
"we've seen instances of harassment on the news"
Yeah, like businesses having the AUDACITY to say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. What it comes down to is that people are becoming more EDUCATED, and religion is going AWAY.
"The ironic thing is...it is BECAUSE of the "godless Communists" that "God" was added to the Pledge and our currency."
Yeah,and thirty years later, it took us OUTSPENDING THEM on defense to beat them. GOD had NOTHING to do with it.
"Seventy plus years later...[censored] is a republic with a huge religious population and we are becoming "godless Socialists"."
Why is it that you feel that if you have to keep your religious beliefs private when in a PUBLIC GOVERNMENT FINANCED entity, that you feel you are losing power? Is your God SO weak and powerless that he needs his followers to CONSTANTLY praise him in public to survive? Really?
"
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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An atheist group is pointing fingers at the school board for a South Carolina valedictorian who ripped up his prepared remarks at a graduation ceremony and instead recited the Lord’s Prayer.
The Freedom From Religion Foundation said the Pickens County School District is actually at fault for creating a pro-Christian atmosphere that encouraged proselytizing — and that tone indirectly prompted the 18-year-old graduate, Roy Costner IV, to recite the prayer during his podium address, Raw Story reported.
“The valedictorian who so insensitively inflicted Christian prayer on a captive audience at a secular graduation ceremony is a product of a school district which itself has set an unconstitutional example by hosting school board prayer,” said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the FFRF, in Raw Story.
FFRF has been attuned to the Christian atmosphere at the school for some time, she said. Members have sent several letters to school administration officials, warning that the prayers spoken during board monthly meetings are unconstitutional and accusing of discriminatory job practices that favor Christians, Raw Story reported. In the face of looming lawsuits, the school cut prayers at graduation ceremonies.
But Mr. Costner went rogue during his graduation remarks — sparking a supportive cheer from graduation attendees that grabbed the ears of the nation, but angered the atheist group further.
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gr8Dad
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Oh, so if a lot of people don't LIKE a law, they can just IGNORE it? That ain't gonna go over so well with the police when a group of kids decides to SPEED through town, because, well, they have a RIGHT to drive how they want. And when they all get together and DRINK, because, well, they have a RIGHT to drink.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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As an adult, he made his choice, and he is willing to accept the punishment, or the applause, just by making the decision.
Then again.....“The valedictorian who so insensitively inflicted Christian prayer on a captive audience at a secular graduation ceremony is a product of a school district which itself has set an unconstitutional example by hosting school board prayer,”
This is not a stretch at all, captive, the school board hosting school prayer....the only answer is to ban the speeches, or have 21 valedictorians, and none of them give a speech......
So what should happen to this kid, or the school board, and should the district pay for the counseling required for those so insensitively exposed to the lord's prayer ?
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gr8Dad
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"So what should happen to this kid, or the school board, and should the district pay for the counseling required for those so insensitively exposed to the lord's prayer ?"
Nothing should happen to the kid, because of two reasons. One, no 17 year old thinks THAT much about God, his PARENTS put him up to this. Second, a rule needs to be made that Valedictorian speeches need to be pre screened and if he goes off script, he gets shut down.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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He was 18, and he was exercising his rights, under the constitution. Congress made no law, the school did not officially sponsor anything. Doesn't shutting him down violate his rights? He is speaking, not the school, it is his speech, not the schools. Regardless of how anyone feels about religion, do we really want to shut down speech we don't like or agree with?
Here is an example:
RED LION, Pa. (AP) — A central Pennsylvania school district has refused to allow a transgender student's male name to be announced during his graduation ceremony later this week.
Eighteen-year-old Isaak Wolfe had asked the Red Lion Area School District in York County to allow his male name to be announced during Friday night's ceremony.
The school board said earlier that Wolfe would be allowed to wear a boy's black graduation gown. But board solicitor Ben Pratt said a diploma is a legal document and must bear the recipient's legal name. Wolfe's given female name — Sierra Stambaugh — is to be read as he walks across the stage.
American Civil Liberties Union lawyer Molly Tack-Hooper said Wolfe is in the process of changing his name but hasn't had time to complete the process.
Why not just read the name?
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spinnerdegrassi
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He'll be punished with a life of believing in a fake deity, and then find out he was fed a line of BS by his parents.
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Sherron
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"South Carolina, go figure.
You know, I think Republicans would do better in upcoming elections if they didn't make religion their principle concern. Remember separation of church and state? Republicans of past did not preach like this. I don't understand why they are so focused on it now."
Separation of church and state... does that mean words from the founding fathers are okay to use again in current context? Not sure why you're trying to turn this into something political, there was no mention of party line, and if this kid is running for any office, I missed it.
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Sherron
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"My religious freedom is not "under attack.""
Well, then all is well in englishland and no one else should care...
"I still think the Republican Party should not define themselves as the Christian Conservative party. It does them no good to exclude the millions of voters who do not identify with that group."
You don't like Republicans anyway, why do you care what they do. Millions of voters didn't agree with Obama, I saw no attempt to include us, only division, division, division.
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Sherron
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"All I'm saying is that I want a Republican candidate who does not speak as if he or she is talking mostly to the religious Right."
Romney didn't, I take it you voted for him... the left was very persistent that Obama is Christian, go figure.
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Sherron
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"Michael Steele was recently interviewed about the future of the GOP, as in the Grand Old Party. He said, "You know, Republicans should run in the communities as they find them, not as you want them to be or think they are. And the moment you sort of get past that pretense and that falsehood that, you know, everybody, you know, is with you because they're with the other guy, you can have a conversation about the things that matter. You can have a conversation about the things that matter to people, as opposed to matter to your party." Sounds to me like he understands the importance of representing THE PEOPLE more generally."
If only the Dems took that to heart, presenting the people more generally, running communities as they find them, not as they want them to be or think they are. I'm stunned you only take issue with that with one party, when both are doing it. Guess only one party needs "fixing" in your mind, the one you don't agree with... if only Republicans would be more like Democrats, then they would have a chance to win your vote...
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Sherron
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""----->As a teacher though, are you impressed with the Valedictorian's accomplishments, even though he broke this rule?"
Actually, wouldn't it be plagarism?"
The accomplishments that earned him the title of valedictorian, stop being deliberately obtuse.
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Sherron
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"What is "under attack" is the PRIMARILY Christian desire to do what they want where they want, when they want, regardless of the rights of OTHERS to not have to LISTEN to it.
...
No religious property has been confiscated, the GOVERNMENT is not ridiculing religion (PEOPLE do, but that is covered under the first ammendment as well. You get to pray, we get to laugh at you), believers are not harrassed (but do an AWFUL lot of harrassing themselves), etc etc."
Following your logic, would Christian not also have to right to not listen to being laughed at? And if you don't think believers are being harassed, you should read some of your posts.
"The problem with YOUR belief right now is that you ONLY see "religion" as CHRISTIANITY, and I hate to tell ya, but there are others (shh, don't tell the JW's), and they deserve as much respect as YOURS."
I'm just waiting for you to "respect" muslims as much as you do Christians and start ragging on those hypocritical a$$holes and their fairy tale book. Does not being an equal opportunity religion hater make you a hypocrite...
"I think that would be the same freedom of speech that lets you pray how you want."
You mean in the privacy of your own bedroom with no one else around to hear you...
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Sherron
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"Nothing should happen to the kid, because of two reasons. One, no 17 year old thinks THAT much about God, his PARENTS put him up to this. Second, a rule needs to be made that Valedictorian speeches need to be pre screened and if he goes off script, he gets shut down."
Well, I'm just glad you are able to ascertain this young adult's true believes, and that they could not possibly be his own, or his own decision... but yes, let's shut down freedom of speech, and quickly, we cannot have people speak freely, on things we don't agree with, where does he think he is, America??
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Sherron
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"He'll be punished with a life of believing in a fake deity, and then find out he was fed a line of BS by his parents."
Seems to work for Obama.
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spinnerdegrassi
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Didn't work too well for the bible thumpers killed in Oklahoma.
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Sherron
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"Didn't work too well for the bible thumpers killed in Oklahoma. "
Unless those were the atheists...
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spinnerdegrassi
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Atheists don't live in hillbilly states like Oklahoma.
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Sherron
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"Atheists don't live in hillbilly states like Oklahoma."
And now you know why...
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Sherron
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"Second, a rule needs to be made that Valedictorian speeches need to be pre screened and if he goes off script, he gets shut down."
Oh look...
High School Cuts Mic During Valedictorian Speech
School district says students were told microphone would be turned off if they deviated from planned speeches
The Joshua High School valedictorian veered off his prepared speech and talked about freedom of speech when administrators turned off his microphone during Thursday night's graduation ceremony.
"I worked hard to earn the right to address you all tonight as valedictorian and have the constitutional right, like any of you, to freely speak," Remington Reimer said.
But administrators cut off his microphone before briefly turning it back on.
"Yesterday, I was threatened to have my mic turned off," Reimer continued.
That's when the district pulled the plug for good.
Many people applauded as he continued speaking even though few could hear him.
Joshua school district administrators say they censored Reimer because he began to stray from his prepared remarks.
"At the time that the speech was deviated from, the microphone was turned off -- and they were told that, prior to the graduation ceremony, regardless of content," Superintendent Fran Marek said.
In addition to being the smartest kid in his class, Reimer was active in Junior ROTC and has accepted a full scholarship to the U.S. Naval Academy, friends say.
In his speech, he mentioned God and Jesus and his religious faith while urging others to stick up for their constitutional rights.
Administrators say his religious comments had nothing to do with their decision to cut him off, noting that other students were allowed to make religious comments which had been pre-approved.
"The valedictorian, salutatorian and historian speeches were all reviewed prior to the graduation and had prior approval," Marek said. "The students were told that if they deviated from their speeches, the microphone would be turned off, regardless of content."
The Reimer family is not talking about the incident. A notice taped to their front door said, "No comment."
The Joshua Independent School District has posted its statement about the graduation on its website.
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Gecko
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Because NON Christian religions and atheism represented such a small group, that the Christian religions could over ride and over rule them. That is changing.
---> No...religion wasn't an issue until sue-happy Atheists decided it was an issue.
Well, that and it WASN'T IN THE PLEDGE ORIGINALLY.
---> Really?!? OMG! Someone call the press!
LMAO, funny that you mention HALLOWEEN. Having resided in the South for quite a few years, I ASSURE you it was the CHURCHES that took Halloween out of schools, NOT the Atheists.
---> Yeah...there are certain religious groups that think Halloween has something to do with 'devil-worship' which is just a stupid as Atheists not allowing Christmas in school.
You need to stop confusing "under attack" with "they can no longer do what they want".
---> And you need to quit trying to white washing or excusing it.
Religion CANNOT be "under attack" as it is a COMPLETELY personal thing.
---> Sure it can and no it's not. You attack religion all the time...specifically Judaism and Christianity. And yes, one has a personal relationship with God, but there is also fellowship.
What is "under attack" is the PRIMARILY Christian desire to do what they want where they want, when they want, regardless of the rights of OTHERS to not have to LISTEN to it.
---> And the Atheist's desire to do what they want where they, when they want, regardless of the rights of OTHERS to not have to LISTEN to it is...different?
And yes, in a PUBLIC SCHOOL, my child has a RIGHT to NOT be exposed to YOUR religious beliefs. Sorry if that pisses you off, but it is a FACT.
---> And in a public school, my child has a right to not be exposed to your non-religious beliefs. Sorry if that pisses you off, but it is a fact.
Actually, you are COMPLETELY wrong.
---> No...I'm not. "Freedom OF religion" is the foundation for the First Amendment. Thomas Jefferson said "[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
---> But you want freedom FROM religion...you want it completely out of the public view.
The First Ammendment guarantees that you have the right to freely EXERCISE your religion. But YOUR rights end where MINE begin and vice versa. So if the state determines that MY child must go to school, and I do not want MY child learning about YOUR religion, you cannot preach it there.
---> But it it's truly 'vice versa'; if I want my child learning your religion, why can't it be preached?
NONE of that is occuring here, and you know it.
---> Yes it is and you know it.
No religious property has been confiscated, the GOVERNMENT is not ridiculing religion (PEOPLE do, but that is covered under the first ammendment as well. You get to pray, we get to laugh at you), believers are not harrassed (but do an AWFUL lot of harrassing themselves), etc etc.
---> Did you even bother reading the ENTIRE paragraph?
The problem with YOUR belief right now is that you ONLY see "religion" as CHRISTIANITY, and I hate to tell ya, but there are others (shh, don't tell the JW's), and they deserve as much respect as YOURS.
---> The only 'problem' with my beliefs is you...in that it is so painfully obvious that you are completely ignorant of what they are. Had I meant Christianity, I would have said Christianity.
Churches SHOULD be taxed. The same way as any other business. And if that church gives away a all of its money, then it can CLAIM that and take its tax liability to zero. Instead, you have preachers in these Megachurches making seven figures, and not paying ANY tax.
---> And how many 'mega-churches' are there in this country in comparison to churches that can't even pay their preachers? I am all for churches who run for-profit businesses being taxed.
I think that would be the same freedom of speech that lets you pray how you want.
---> But you have repeated said that I cannot pray how I want, because it infringes upon your right not to hear it.
Yeah, like businesses having the AUDACITY to say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. What it comes down to is that people are becoming more EDUCATED, and religion is going AWAY.
---> LOL.
Yeah,and thirty years later, it took us OUTSPENDING THEM on defense to beat them. GOD had NOTHING to do with it.
---> Never said it did...try again.
Why is it that you feel that if you have to keep your religious beliefs private when in a PUBLIC GOVERNMENT FINANCED entity, that you feel you are losing power? Is your God SO weak and powerless that he needs his followers to CONSTANTLY praise him in public to survive? Really?
---> Huh? Why do you keep bringing up public schools when 1) it had absolutely NOTHING to do with my response to English, and 2) I have been very clear that I don't support teaching [personal] religion in school. Mind you, I don't have an issue with teaching religion*** as a Social Science/History elective.
*** - Contemporary and historical references
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gr8Dad
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"Doesn't shutting him down violate his rights?"
Nope, because it is a public venue. Just like you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater, you cannot PRAY at a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Again, why is your God SO freaking weak that he has to have people praying to him LOUDLY and PUBLICALLY all the time?
"it is his speech"
No, it is a PRAYER< he TOOK out of the bible/prayer book, WITHOUT CITATION.
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spinnerdegrassi
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If all the time wasted praying in this country was put to better use, like people actually exercising, then maybe this wouldn't be the Obese States of America.
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gr8Dad
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"Following your logic, would Christian not also have to right to not listen to being laughed at?"
Well, when they START a conversation, and the laughter is the result of that conversation, well, they started it, LOL/
"And if you don't think believers are being harassed, you should read some of your posts."
And if you think that you VOLUTARILY clicking on MY posts, when you KNOW that I feel the way I do is considered "harrassment", you ought to read a DICTIONARY...start in the H's.
"I'm just waiting for you to "respect" muslims as much as you do Christians and start ragging on those hypocritical a$$holes and their fairy tale book."
Yeah, cause there are SO MANY Muslims who post here for me to debate with...really?
"Does not being an equal opportunity religion hater make you a hypocrite..."
And THERE is the problem, right there, 100%. You have ACCUSED and JUDGED me as a HATER of religion, because I disagree with it. I have ZERO feelings toward religion (in other words, I don't CARE about it enough TO hate it), I do not like people who push it hard, or pick and choose the rules they follow, but I don't hate anyone. Of course, claiming I am a "hater" of religion makes it much easier for people like you and Gecko to IGNORe the FACTUAL parts of my posts and claim that I just HATE you guys. But hey, if it works for ya.
"You mean in the privacy of your own bedroom with no one else around to hear you..."
In the bedroom, in your yard, on a public street corner, just NOT IN SCHOOLS. Why is that SO FVCKING HARD for you people to understand?
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gr8Dad
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Well, good thing he is going to an open minded place like the Naval Academy, where he will be allowed to say and do anything he likes, LMAO!
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spinnerdegrassi
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Naval Officer: What's your name douche?
Bible Thumper Roy: Roy Costner
Naval Officer: What are you reading you turd burglar?
Bible Thumper Roy: The Bible
Naval Officer: So you think think that that Jew Jesus is some kind of God?
Bible Thumper Roy: Oh Golly Gee Sir, He's my lord and savior.
Naval Officer: He's no god. I'm YOUR GOD!!!!!! I tell you when to eat, to sleep, to [censored], to jerk off to Bea Arthur. He won't save you when you're under attack by the Phelps Family. I'm the only one who can save your sad ass life now. Got it?
Bible Thumper Roy: Yes Sir.
12 Weeks later:
Naval Officer: Who is your God now?
Bible Thumper Roy: Allah
Naval Officer: Good job, you're finally learning.
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Redlegg
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OMG, a double Glom....
Nope, because it is a public venue.
You just invented that right, or are public venues now off limits to the free expression of religion?
Just like you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater, you cannot PRAY at a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Again, why is your God SO freaking weak that he has to have people praying to him LOUDLY and PUBLICALLY all the time?
The same reason you want to keep your semi automatic weapons, not because you have to, or hunt. Because you can.......it is not a question of you are too weak to do without, that you cannot protect yourself without them, that your weakness makes them needed, but it is because you can.
So, as far as obeying the rules, this is not state sponsored, the school did not force anyone, congress did not make any laws. An individual chose to express his religion freely, as was his individual right. The constitution restricts the government, not the valedictorian.
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gr8Dad
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"The same reason you want to keep your semi automatic weapons, not because you have to, or hunt. Because you can......."
Oh, my bad, could you direct me to the part of the CONSTITUTION that says you can PRAY in a PUBLIC SCHOOL? The Constitution says you have the right to EXERCISE your religion. You just cannot use the public school, where OTHER PEOPLE, who have DIFFERENT RELIGION BELIEFS OR LACK THEREOF, as your GYMNASIUM. Why is that SUCH A MUTHERFVCKING PROBLEM? WHY MUST YOU FORCE YOUR FVCKING BELIEFS WHERE THEY ARE NOT WANTED AND ARE NOT SHARED BY EVERYONE?
Maybe you could start by explaining THAT. We who own GUNS know that there are CERTAIN places we CANNOT take them. Churches, bars, etc. Well, YOU have have your religion, but there are a few places you cannot OPENLY preach, and one of those is a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Its NOT to "limit" you, its to prevent MY impressionable child from listening to YOUR nonsense. WHY is that SUCH a problem?
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Redlegg
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Oh, my bad, could you direct me to the part of the CONSTITUTION that says you can PRAY in a PUBLIC SCHOOL?
Can you direct me to the part of the constitution that says you can have a semi automatic weapon, or a 30 round magazine, even the Supreme court has decided prayer can be in school, it just cannot be school led, or sponsored, which this wasn't.
Oh my bad, can you direct me to the part of the constitution that says your impressionable child does not have to be exposed to any nonsense, yours or mine ?
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gr8Dad
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"even the Supreme court has decided prayer can be in school, it just cannot be school led, or sponsored, which this wasn't."
It wasn't? A PRAYER, specific to ONE religious denomination, being recited by the person the SCHOOL chose to be the Valedictorian isn't SCHOOL LED? So I guess if the school chooses a speaker to come in, and THEY start praying, well, its not the SCHOOL, so its not school LED< right? You are splitting HAIRS, and LOOKING for a way to get YOUR religious beliefs preached. And you KNOW it.
And the FACT that you would CHEER someone for violating a rule, simply because its YOUR belief structure that is being supported, shows what your true character is. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, and to God what is GOD'S. The graduation was for ALL of the students, but you Christians just HAVE to SHOVE your fvcking beliefs into it. Can't just have a graduation for EVERYONE, nah, GOT to get that PRAYER in there.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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The test is, is it school sponsored, did the school create a vehicle for religious speech above and beyond any other protected speech, and is it genuinely student-initiated and not the product of any school policy which actively or surreptitiously encourages it.
Do we follow the established rules or not ?
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gr8Dad
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"Oh my bad, can you direct me to the part of the constitution that says your impressionable child does not have to be exposed to any nonsense, yours or mine ?"
Show me where the atheists have inserted THERE beliefs or lack thereof, into a school. Show me where Christians have SAT POLITELY while the OTHER side of the coin was talked about. Hell, kids and parent walked out on Bill Nye because he said that the Earth was older than 6000 years (a SCIENTIFIC FACT). So you have a group of students of all different denominations, trying to enjoy their GRADUATION, and some CHRISTIAN has to RUIN it by making it a PRAYER MEETING.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Nope. You found a way around the TEXT of the law, with complete disregard for the INTENT of the law. GREAT lesson for the kids. Find a loophole and exploit it to get the Christian message out there. Such a very UNChristian method.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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And the FACT that you would CHEER someone for violating a rule, simply because its YOUR belief structure that is being supported, shows what your true character is.
That is just one of your many errors, if that student had gotten up there and said he did it by himself, IAW your beliefs, I would feel the same way. The true character argument, really, why the character assault ?
I did not find a way around anything, it is pretty clear. You are under some either mis, or un-informed idea that you have some kind of right to not be exposed to the free speech of others. The law is clear, it has been through the courts many times, and it has come out in many different versions. It is pretty basic. Any school led prayer is wrong, an individual praying in school is ok, especially on non curricular time. It is your beliefs that are the problem, because I have no problem with my beliefs, or anyone else's beliefs, express them in a speech. You are the one that has a problem with other beliefs, and want to see them stifled.....not me.
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gr8Dad
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"you have some kind of right to not be exposed to the free speech of others."
Well, you wouldbe right if we were talking about ME, and ADULT. But since we are talking about CHILDREN, and the rules are different.
What the Christian community SHOULD have done was admonish the student, tell him this was not the time or place for this, and that they could have a prayer alone, or in a private Christian group AFTER graduation, but that there were NON Christians graduating as well, and that he needed to respect that. Instead, they are CHEERING him on for preaching in school. It IS a character issue.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"You are the one that has a problem with other beliefs, and want to see them stifled.....not me."
No, if you wish to allow YOUR members or believers to spout YOUR beliefs, you need to allow a counter point. In other words, if the Christian person can talk about how the invisible guy helped him etc, there should also be an atheist student who can say that God doesn't exist, and a Buddist student to talk about how karma helped him. But the EASIEST solution is to NOT have ANY religious stuff, and keep it at HOME, where it BELONGS.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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My bad, can you show me the part of the constitution that says any religious statement should require every other theory represented... (J/K)
I don't care what the person's beliefs were, as a student, they should express them in their beliefs. But in fantasy land, when someone gives credit to anything other than themselves, which is your belief, then thousands of other beliefs should also be represented. That would be true if it were the school speaking, this is not the fairness doctrine act, it is speaking about the expressly protected views of an individual. It doesn't matter what the beliefs are, only that they are coming from the individual.
I can only imagine what it would be like. The valedictorian says I achieved this through my own hard work alone, (your belief), and then the whistle blows, and the Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Micmacs, Wiccans, etc. line up to get theirs in, and 23.5 hours later, we can continue.
This kid violated nothing, except your sensibilities, no laws were violated, it is IAW court decisions. You are accusing me of something you are doing, I say stifle no valedictorians beliefs in their speech, but you are the one who wants to stifle it, and when it can't be stifled, you invoke some kind of imaginary liberal fairness doctrine where everyone should have the chance. Well, IAW your beliefs, that makes no sense, since the valedictorian earned the right to express his views, he did the work, you want to accredit it to him, but you want him to share the stage with people who didn't earn it, and why, because that would fair. Not by any law, just to be fair....
How does that work, you believe he earned the right, through his own hard work, to be on that stage but he should not be able to express his views, which are expressly protected and why, because you disagree with them.
He does have the right to express his views, as protected by the constitution, doesn't he ? It was not school sponsored, it was not any more, or less protected than any other student's speech was it. I mean the only thing left is that you don't like it.
Once we established it is legal, and protected, what is left, if not the law?
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gr8Dad
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" and 23.5 hours later, we can continue."
Oh, so since there isn't enough time, lets ONLY give the Christian person a chance. What a COINCIDENCE.
"How does that work, you believe he earned the right, through his own hard work, to be on that stage but he should not be able to express his views, which are expressly protected and why, because you disagree with them."
No, because the LAW says NO. Don't LIKE it, CHANGE the LAW.
"It was not school sponsored"
Yeah, nothing officially school sponsored about FVCKING GRADUATION< is there. Yeah, sure, got it. PLEASE keep talking, because you are converting FAR more with your double standards and double speak than I EVER could, LMAO!
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Redlegg
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No, because the LAW says NO. Don't LIKE it, CHANGE the LAW.
That is just not true, the law is clear. What he did is well within the law, there are cases that would have violated the law, but this is not it.
So I guess you are right on one part: Don't LIKE it, CHANGE the LAW.
Find the law that says a student initiated prayer is illegal. If it was a clergyman, or school sponsored, that would be different. This ain't it. You can argue all day long, but the law is the law, the law you say should be followed. Now it shouldn't be. But it is my double standard, that is just bizarre. You say he should follow the law, and when he does, you say wait a minute, no he shouldn't.
You do understand the law is not based on location, but who is speaking and when ? It is not the event sponsorship, it is speech sponsorship. Just like kids can wear religious items to school (sponsored) their individual speech is protected.
I hope I do convert people to exercising their rights, free exercise, free speech, the right to bear arms, unreasonable search and seizure.
You do understand he was within the law, don't you? You could use the same argument with Westboro Baptist church at military funerals, sponsored by the government, but still the right to express their religious views at those government sponsored events.
Why is it so hard to support a kid who obeys the law, that is strange...
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gr8Dad
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Great, you got it, everything is fine. I will expect the SAME support when the Wiccan kid gets up there, or the atheist kid gets up there. You, along with many (NOT ALL) Christians will have a problem with it, but we have become accustomed to the double standard.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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I have no double standard, I have always been in support free speech, and always will be. I may not like the content, but that is my problem. I have to support the idea, anything else would be stifling speech. I think you said once you had a reply prepared for WBC, and it was in support of their religious expression, I agree with that. I don't like it, but I do support the right. Burning the flag, don't support the action, but definitely the right.
Regardless of my personal beliefs, I do not want a school to put forth any theory, or religion forward as the only option or truth. I would object if anyone tried to govern through religion, regardless of the religion. But just hearing it is not enough. I do not want your kids to experience any government forcing a religion on them, but I also do not want their speech, their ideas stifled, no matter how much I agree or disagree with them.
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spinnerdegrassi
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It would have been more interesting if the kid had done the corky fight the power dance from life goes on
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Gecko
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Oh, my bad, could you direct me to the part of the CONSTITUTION that says you can PRAY in a PUBLIC SCHOOL?
---> Could you direct us to the part of the Constitution that says can cannot pray in a public school?
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
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Nope, because it is a public venue.
---> This is without a doubt, one of the stupidest things you have ever said.
Just like you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater....
---> Which has NOTHING to do with this issue.
No, it is a PRAYER< he TOOK out of the bible/prayer book, WITHOUT CITATION.
---> So...it was part of his speech and there are no legal requirements for citation.
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Gecko
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Well, you wouldbe right if we were talking about ME, and ADULT. But since we are talking about CHILDREN, and the rules are different.
---> Are we talking about children? The vast majority of high school graduates are over the age of 18, and thereby adults.
---> Additionally, graduation is NOT a 'captive audience'...a person's presence, either as a graduate or guest is completely voluntary.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
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You are splitting HAIRS.....
---> Isn't that what you do in order to get your 'beliefs' preached.
The graduation was for ALL of the students, but you Christians just HAVE to SHOVE your fvcking beliefs into it.
---> Exactly...it was for ALL students INCLUDING Christians, but you Atheists just HAVE to SHOVE your fvcking beliefs into it.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Sherron
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"Well, when they START a conversation, and the laughter is the result of that conversation, well, they started it, LOL/"
And when you start a conversation, you tell people this is your thread, don't like it, get off and start your own. LOL.
"And if you think that you VOLUTARILY clicking on MY posts, when you KNOW that I feel the way I do is considered "harrassment", you ought to read a DICTIONARY...start in the H's."
I don't click on YOUR posts, I click on threads, you happen to post on some of them. I don't have to look it up, and we already know you won't... you claimed believers are not harassed, maybe that's just your way of excusing your poor behavior... the issue is not the way you "feel", it is your hostility.
"Yeah, cause there are SO MANY Muslims who post here for me to debate with...really?"
You can only debate a religion with its followers... really??
"And THERE is the problem, right there, 100%. You have ACCUSED and JUDGED me as a HATER of religion, because I disagree with it. I have ZERO feelings toward religion (in other words, I don't CARE about it enough TO hate it), I do not like people who push it hard, or pick and choose the rules they follow, but I don't hate anyone. Of course, claiming I am a "hater" of religion makes it much easier for people like you and Gecko to IGNORe the FACTUAL parts of my posts and claim that I just HATE you guys. But hey, if it works for ya."
And there is the problem right there, 100%. I do not have an issue with your opinion, even when I disagree with it, I have an issue with the hateful way you express it. You know, the whole a$$holes, retards, stupid morons thing. You're not arguing from a place of facts, you are arguing from a place of emotion, you attack and ridicule people's beliefs, intelligence, character... I guess when your opinion is based on such facts as "I don't like it", that's all you have to fall back on, and you do. That's what makes you a "hater" in my view.
"In the bedroom, in your yard, on a public street corner, just NOT IN SCHOOLS. Why is that SO FVCKING HARD for you people to understand?"
Yes, in schools. Student led prayer is perfectly legal, why is that so hard for you to understand? You don't like it, I got it, but as you have said many times before, not liking something is not a good enough reason. This would be a good time to present those facts to back your opinion... what law prohibits student-initiated prayer in a public school?
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Sherron
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"Just like you cannot yell fire in a crowded theater, you cannot PRAY at a PUBLIC SCHOOL."
Just like it... what clear and present danger does a prayer create?
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gr8Dad
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"Just like it... what clear and present danger does a prayer create?"
Because by allowing ONE denomination's prayers/beliefs only, you run the risk of countering the PARENTAL teachings of a child that would disagree with that preaching. Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR religion is wrong, all so YOU can preach YOUR religion?
You know, I have answered QUESTION after QUESTION, after QUESTION, how about you answer ONE:
Why do Christians feel the need to inject THEIR beliefs onto EVERYONE else? Why can Christian not just KEEP IT PERSONAL?
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Redlegg
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Why do Christians feel the need to inject THEIR beliefs onto EVERYONE else? Why can Christian not just KEEP IT PERSONAL?
Because the law says they can, (just like p0rnography, rap music, Christianity, profanity, and anything anyone may find offensive to include semi-automatic rifles) just like you can inject your personal beliefs when you are valedictorian, as the law says, or your kids, or anyone's kids. You do not like his choice, but why does he have to justify his choice, protected by law, to anyone ?
You don't like it, I get that, but either you believe in his right to do it, or you don't. You can defend his right to do it, and not condone the action.
If you are disagreeing with his action great, but do you really want to stifle his protected right to free speech, and free exercise of his religion ?
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gr8Dad
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"Because the law says they can"
But why can you folks not respect that not everyone BELIEVES like you do, and a GRADUATION is NOT a place to try and CONVERT people. Hey, on a street corner, go for it, but the NON Christians in the audience and in the about to become Alumni graduates have DIFFERENT beliefs. So why do so many Christians feel the need to confused/contradict OTHER people's beliefs in a NON debate forum?
"You don't like it, I get that, but either you believe in his right to do it, or you don't. You can defend his right to do it, and not condone the action."
Yes, I CAN. I support the WBC's right to do what they do, but do not condone what they are saying. But EVERYTHING you have brought up is in a PUBLIC venue, where debate and free speech is available to EVERYONE.
You say high school graduation is a place of free speech. Yet you ALSO said that OTHER religions shouldn't be allowed to have THEIR say, because it would take to long. So the Non Christians have to sit there and listen to this senior preach, yet THEIR right to REFUTE his words does not exist. THEY do not have the free speech. They cannot even BOYCOTT the graduation, because there are NO other options.
Bottom line, the graduation belongs to ALL the seniors. Yet only the CHRISTIAN seniors were spoken to that day, while the NON Christians had to sit in silence and listen to words they find to be nonsense at best, offensive and contradictory at worst. But you folks got your PRAYER, so that is all you care about. You are spending SO much time defending whether or not you COULD do something, you refuse to consider whether or not you SHOULD do it.
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Sherron
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"Because by allowing ONE denomination's prayers/beliefs only, you run the risk of countering the PARENTAL teachings of a child that would disagree with that preaching. Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR religion is wrong, all so YOU can preach YOUR religion?"
A prayer is not preaching... why should I have to explain to MY kids about homo$exuality or a bunch of other crap, and that's actually on the curriculum... kids will be exposed to things contrary to what we teach them as parents, it's a fact of life, and we don't get to try and silence what we don't agree with. You do not get to stifle free speech because it is more convenient for you and you don't care to talk to your kids about certain things. Those are not the criteria for clear and imminent danger; it does not incite imminent lawless action.
Do you explain to your kids that Christianity is wrong...?
"You know, I have answered QUESTION after QUESTION, after QUESTION, how about you answer ONE:"
You missed a few actually, particularly this one:
What law prohibits student-initiated prayer in a public school? What makes your opinion any more than "I just don't like it"....
"Why do Christians feel the need to inject THEIR beliefs onto EVERYONE else? Why can Christian not just KEEP IT PERSONAL?"
For the same reason you do lol? Just kidding... faith is a lifestyle, why wouldn't it be part of the person's life 24/7... granted, some are more obnoxious about it than others, but that goes for every lifestyle... other than that... it is because they can, just like I can have one of those evil black guns, it is a right I can choose to exercise, or not, and no explanation is needed why... what I cannot figure out why you think that a prayer is actually about you...
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Sherron
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"You say high school graduation is a place of free speech. Yet you ALSO said that OTHER religions shouldn't be allowed to have THEIR say, because it would take to long. So the Non Christians have to sit there and listen to this senior preach, yet THEIR right to REFUTE his words does not exist. THEY do not have the free speech. They cannot even BOYCOTT the graduation, because there are NO other options."
The say goes to the valedictorian, not the Christian. This particular speaker happens to be both.
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Redlegg
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But why can you folks not respect that not everyone BELIEVES like you do, and a GRADUATION is NOT a place to try and CONVERT people. Hey, on a street corner, go for it, but the NON Christians in the audience and in the about to become Alumni graduates have DIFFERENT beliefs. So why do so many Christians feel the need to confused/contradict OTHER people's beliefs in a NON debate forum?
********Because life is not a series of debates, it is not some place where there are a set of rules where you get to speak your own opinion, only if there is a suitable counterview available. That young man earned the right to speak, it was not given to him, it was his time, to say what he wanted to say. It was not the audiences time, it was his, and his alone.
Yes, I CAN. I support the WBC's right to do what they do, but do not condone what they are saying. But EVERYTHING you have brought up is in a PUBLIC venue, where debate and free speech is available to EVERYONE.
*****A graduation ceremony is not a debate, it is a graduation ceremony. How many awards ceremonies, assemblies, anything you want is about open debate, and anyone gets their say.
You say high school graduation is a place of free speech. Yet you ALSO said that OTHER religions shouldn't be allowed to have THEIR say, because it would take to long.
****What I said was if you allowed everyone to have their opinions, you would be there all day, listening to some monster debate about an untold amount of ideas. it could be a thousand people, it could be 20, and it is a graduation ceremony, not a town hall meeting. It was not a statement to stifle anyone else, it was a statement that it is his time, his thoughts, and like it or not, it is his to decide, not the audience, or some imaginary fairness concept.
Bottom line, the graduation belongs to ALL the seniors. Yet only the CHRISTIAN seniors were spoken to that day, while the NON Christians had to sit in silence and listen to words they find to be nonsense at best, offensive and contradictory at worst. But you folks got your PRAYER, so that is all you care about. You are spending SO much time defending whether or not you COULD do something, you refuse to consider whether or not you SHOULD do it.
***The graduation does belong to all seniors, and they all got what they earned, a diploma and a walk across the stage, and because this young man worked so hard, and performed so well, he got what he earned. The time was his, not all seniors, not the audience's but his.
But you folks got your PRAYER, so that is all you care about. You are spending SO much time defending whether or not you COULD do something, you refuse to consider whether or not you SHOULD do it.
*****That would be incorrect. All I care about in this case is the idea of freedom. Either you are making it up, or not understanding. I could give a rat's azz if he got up and talked about the FSM, it is his time, to say what he wants. I am not of the idea that he should only say things that do not offend, that meet the approval of specific beliefs, and he should tailor his remarks to the desires of those who did not earn the time. I don't even understand how you can come up with the concept of stifling this kids speech, limiting it to certain things, and then saying I am wrong for supporting that concept, when in fact I have never supported stifling free speech.
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gr8Dad
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"A prayer is not preaching..."
THAT is a desparate claim.
"why should I have to explain to MY kids about homo$exuality or a bunch of other crap, and that's actually on the curriculum..."
Personally, while I think that they should teach ACCEPTECE, in the form of you can't BEAT them, kill them or discrimunate against them, I do not know of any OTHER teachings about homosexuality. But if there IS, I would agree, your kids should not have to hear it.
"kids will be exposed to things contrary to what we teach them as parents, it's a fact of life, and we don't get to try and silence what we don't agree with"
LOL, yet you don't want homosexuality taught in schools. Can you even SEE the hypocrisy in YOUR OWN WORDS in this post?
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Redlegg
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So the Non Christians have to sit there and listen to this senior preach, yet THEIR right to REFUTE his words does not exist. THEY do not have the free speech. They cannot even BOYCOTT the graduation, because there are NO other options.
Speaker says: Teacher Jones is the best teacher in the school, and my personal inspiration
Host: Now let's have everyone who has a different opinion please stand, so they can refute the speaker's words.
______
Speaker: I did all the work myself, I had no help from anyone, and no outside influences.
Host: Would all people who follow religious beliefs, please stand, to refute this.
I can kind of see how this would work...........
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gr8Dad
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"That young man earned the right to speak, it was not given to him, it was his time, to say what he wanted to say. It was not the audiences time, it was his, and his alone."
Wait, I though GOD did it for him? I mean that was what HE said.
"*****A graduation ceremony is not a debate, it is a graduation ceremony. How many awards ceremonies, assemblies, anything you want is about open debate, and anyone gets their say."
EXACTLY, it is about ALL of the people graduating. The Christian decided to use the captive audience to PREACH at them. Bad choice and one of the MAJOR reasons people are leaving religion in DROVES. You folks are ANNOYING. Oh, you wanna EAT, well we got to PRAY first, despite the FACT that God did NOTHING to provide the food. Wanna play football, wait, we got to PRAY first, even though religion has NOTHING to do with football. Wanna meet? Nope, got to PRAY first, despite the fact that the meeting has nothing to do with religion.
And honestly, for DECADES, us non believers has stood there silently, bowed our heads, and remained silent out of RESPECT. And NOW, when WE ask YOU guys to TONE IT DOWN, and respect US, by remaining SILENT about YOUR beliefs, we are told you have a RIGHT, and we HAVE to listen, and WE are not respecting YOUR RIGHTS. Well, we DID, and ALL you folks did was get WORSE AND WORSE. But respect is a TWO WAY STREET, and you people have ZERO respect for OTHER peoples religion and/or beliefs.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Yeah, because RELIGION and OPINION are the same thing. Sit there and PRETEND you don't understand the difference...that level of stupidity explains why you believe in religion.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Sherron
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"THAT is a desparate claim."
Not at all, prayer is addressing God, preaching is addressing the audience.
"Personally, while I think that they should teach ACCEPTECE, in the form of you can't BEAT them, kill them or discrimunate against them, I do not know of any OTHER teachings about homosexuality. But if there IS, I would agree, your kids should not have to hear it."
And that would be a general concept, you cannot beat students, kill them or discriminate against them... certainly, these things apply to all and not just to gays. Why would this need to be taught within the context of homo$exuality??
"LOL, yet you don't want homosexuality taught in schools. Can you even SEE the hypocrisy in YOUR OWN WORDS in this post?"
No hypocrisy... there are quite a few things I am against personally but I support the general right. I am against the WBC, I would love to see them shut down for good, never to be heard from again... but whether I like it or agree with what they are doing, I accept and respect that they have the right to do it. I don't have to like something to support the right to do it.
Do you recognize that the student has the right to make the speech that he did?
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Redlegg
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Wait, I though GOD did it for him? I mean that was what HE said.
What you thought is irrelevant, the attempt to paint a Christian young man as helpless, and not doing anything on his own takes away from the whole issue. The issue at hand is not a religious issue, it is a free speech issue.
EXACTLY, it is about ALL of the people graduating. The Christian decided to use the captive audience to PREACH at them. Bad choice and one of the MAJOR reasons people are leaving religion in DROVES. You folks are ANNOYING.
*****And his speech is about his speech. You folks, you people, your kind, whatever you want to use, cannot seem to grasp a simple concept of you do not have a right to not be offended, but you do have a right to not believe, not join a church. Enjoy your freedoms. Instead, you would rather attack free speech, and stifle that what you don't like. You should be celebrating this kid, since it is people like him who are bringing about the downfall of Christianity. What is your basis for this idea of he can't do this, other than you don't like it?
And honestly, for DECADES, us non believers has stood there silently, bowed our heads, and remained silent out of RESPECT. And NOW, when WE ask YOU guys to TONE IT DOWN, and respect US, by remaining SILENT about YOUR beliefs, we are told you have a RIGHT, and we HAVE to listen, and WE are not respecting YOUR RIGHTS. Well, we DID, and ALL you folks did was get WORSE AND WORSE. But respect is a TWO WAY STREET, and you people have ZERO respect for OTHER peoples religion and/or beliefs.
Then don't respect it, but if you think some kind of sanctimonious you have to do it my way is going to work for you, or now it is your turn to be listened to, well, welcome to freedom. You are going to get people speaking their minds, and your offense is not the issue. Just as mine, or anyone else's is not the issue when you speak yours. You are saying that he should not have the right to speak his mind.
At least say it is protected free speech, and he has a right to say it, and that you find it inappropriate, but you support his right to say it. Disagree all day, but to frame this as some kind of legal violation of your rights is not accurate. It is a concept, and because it involves religion, you seem to be forgetting the concept, and are attacking the content of the free speech.
Do you support his right to do what he did at least ?
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gr8Dad
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"Why would this need to be taught within the context of homo$exuality??"
Because society DOES discriminate against gays, the most obvious being marriage.
"Do you recognize that the student has the right to make the speech that he did?"
No, and I think it is dishonest to say he GAVE a speech, especially when the TITLE of the article is that he ripped UP the speech and said the Our Father.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"What you thought is irrelevant, the attempt to paint a Christian young man as helpless, and not doing anything on his own takes away from the whole issue."
Yeah, got it, you are pathetic. GOD does everything, GOD is responsible for everything..but don't SAY that to the Christian kid, who said it HIMSELF, because that takes AWAY from him. That is ALMOST as funny as "God is responsible for EVERYTHING...well, except for the BAD stuff."
"Do you support his right to do what he did at least ?"
No. There is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PRAYER OR RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. You desparate fvckers have tried EVERY MOVE in the BOOK to get past it, but the INTENT is that you keep your religious SH!T at home or in your CHURCH.
Tell me, how would you feel about a MANDATORY function, in which YOUR Christian child was forced to sit down and have all of their religious beliefs explained away as superstitious and crazy by another student?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Redlegg
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Yeah, got it, you are pathetic. GOD does everything, GOD is responsible for everything..but don't SAY that to the Christian kid, who said it HIMSELF, because that takes AWAY from him. That is ALMOST as funny as "God is responsible for EVERYTHING...well, except for the BAD stuff."
*******That is misinformation on your part. That is how you choose to frame his beliefs, and apparently mine. You have no idea, of his beliefs, or my beliefs.
No. There is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PRAYER OR RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. You desparate fvckers have tried EVERY MOVE in the BOOK to get past it, but the INTENT is that you keep your religious SH!T at home or in your CHURCH.
***Except the law says what he did is fine. It is a myth that there is no prayer in public schools, laws, court decisions, and facts totally destroy that myth, but you persist in propagating it, despite facts, and the truth. Now where is that double standard, follow the laws, or not. There are many laws that support him, and the ones that would have prohibited him are no longer valid. You can say it as many times as you want, it does not make it true. If you do not like the law, change it.
Desperate is willing to suspend the civil rights, as protected, in the constitution, of an individual, because you do not like the content of his speech. How perfectly progressive.
Tell me, how would you feel about a MANDATORY function, in which YOUR Christian child was forced to sit down and have all of their religious beliefs explained away as superstitious and crazy by another student?
*****I would make up stories about those people's beliefs, I would attack their character, I would call them desperate, I would do everything I could to shut them up.
or
I would explain what freedom of speech is, and teach my child what I think he should know, and how to deal with the things that contradict it.
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Sherron
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"Because society DOES discriminate against gays, the most obvious being marriage."
Beat, kill, discriminate, we can't even agree that these are general concepts to be taught??
"No, and I think it is dishonest to say he GAVE a speech, especially when the TITLE of the article is that he ripped UP the speech and said the Our Father."
Of course he gave a speech, a different one from his original, but a speech none the less... do we need to get out the dictionary again?? Now you want to redefine speech to deny the freedom of speech, too funny.
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Sherron
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"No. There is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE PRAYER OR RELIGION IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. You desparate fvckers have tried EVERY MOVE in the BOOK to get past it, but the INTENT is that you keep your religious SH!T at home or in your CHURCH."
Enjoy your freedom to be an a$$hole to those who have served to defend your right to do so.
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gr8Dad
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"Now you want to redefine speech to deny the freedom of speech, too funny."
Almost as funny as saying he WASN'T preaching, he was saying a prayer, because it was to GOD, not to the AUDIENCE. So a prayer is NOT preaching because its not to the audience, but it IS a "speech". Walk that religion line, everything is okay if your CHURCH says it is.
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gr8Dad
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"Enjoy your freedom to be an a$$hole to those who have served to defend your right to do so."
Yeah, cause ALL military people are Christian, right?
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Sherron
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"Almost as funny as saying he WASN'T preaching, he was saying a prayer, because it was to GOD, not to the AUDIENCE. So a prayer is NOT preaching because its not to the audience, but it IS a "speech". Walk that religion line, everything is okay if your CHURCH says it is. "
Just cite the law that prohibits student-initiated prayer.
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Sherron
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"Yeah, cause ALL military people are Christian, right?"
Stop being deliberately obtuse. You didn't address "ALL military people" on this thread, why would I mean "ALL military people" in my post. You have called Red "pathetic", "desparate fvcker", questioned his "true character", asked about his "MUTHERFVCKING PROBLEM", questioned his "FVCKING BELIEFS"... Red is one of the people who have served to protect your right to speak freely. So I will clarify it for you, enjoy your freedom to be an a$$hole to one of those who have served to defend your right to do so.
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Gecko
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Because by allowing ONE denomination's prayers/beliefs only, you run the risk of countering the PARENTAL teachings of a child that would disagree with that preaching.
---> LOL...talk about WEAK. The minute you expose your child to the 'world'...television, radio, newspaper, going to a friend's house, going to the store, going to school, etc...you run the risk of countering the PARENTAL teachings of a child.
Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR religion is wrong, all so YOU can preach YOUR religion?
---> Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR [non]religion is wrong, all so YOU can preach YOUR [non] religion? Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR political views are wrong, all so YOU can PRATTLE your views? And the list goes on and on and on.
You know, I have answered QUESTION after QUESTION, after QUESTION, how about you answer ONE:
---> You haven't answered any, but to answer yours.....
Why do Christians feel the need to inject THEIR beliefs onto EVERYONE else?
---> Probably the same reason why Atheists feel the need to inject THEIR beliefs onto everyone else.
Why can Christian not just KEEP IT PERSONAL?
---> They do. A person's relationship with Christ is personal.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
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But why can you folks not respect that not everyone BELIEVES like you do, and a GRADUATION is NOT a place to try and CONVERT people. Hey, on a street corner, go for it, but.....
---> First of all, how can one when you said yesterday that that 'preaching' was NOT allowed in a public venue; you can't deny that a street corner is a very public venue.
---> Second, he was NOT trying to convert anyone. If anything, I would say that he was protesting (via his First Amendment rights) what had been done to the school board. You could attempt to say that a graduation ceremony is not the place to protest, but in doing so, you would be [once again] displaying your hypocrisy.
They cannot even BOYCOTT the graduation, because there are NO other options.
---> Sure there is...they can pick up their diploma at the office or have it mailed to them. The entire graduation ceremony is simply a symbol, there is NO law that says you HAVE to attend it.
Bottom line, the graduation belongs to ALL the seniors.
---> Even the Christian ones.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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gr8Dad
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"Red is one of the people who have served to protect your right to speak freely. So I will clarify it for you, enjoy your freedom to be an a$$hole to one of those who have served to defend your right to do so."
So was Nidal Hasan, you want to defend HIM as well?
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gr8Dad
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"The minute you expose your child to the 'world'...television, radio, newspaper, going to a friend's house, going to the store, going to school, etc...you run the risk of countering the PARENTAL teachings of a child."
And why THING about SCHOOL differentiates it from all of the other things? Oh yeah, SCHOOL IS MANDATORY.
"---> Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR [non]religion is wrong"
I am sorry, are you aware of a student giving a speech touting atheisim? If so, I would be interested in seeing it, and I would disagree with THAT as well.
"Why should I have to explain to MY kids that YOUR political views are wrong"
You shouldn't, political views have no place in school as well.
"---> Probably the same reason why Atheists feel the need to inject THEIR beliefs onto everyone else."
I am NOT trying to convert you to anything, just trying to get you and your to SHUT UP about YOUR beliefs to MY kids.
"---> They do. A person's relationship with Christ is personal."
Then SHUT THE FVCK UP about it!!!
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"---> First of all, how can one when you said yesterday that that 'preaching' was NOT allowed in a public venue"
A SCHOOL is not a PUBLIC VENUE, it is a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Any other BASIC ENGLISH WORDS I can define for you?
"If anything, I would say that he was protesting (via his First Amendment rights) what had been done to the school board."
Why would someone NOT trying to FORCE their religion on people PROTEST the inability to FORCE their religion on everybody?
"---> Sure there is...they can pick up their diploma at the office or have it mailed to them."
Yeah, great option, the NON CHRISTIAN kid should not be able to enjoy graduation, so the CHRISTIAN kid can PRAY, where he has NO DAMN BUSINESS praying.
"The entire graduation ceremony is simply a symbol, there is NO law that says you HAVE to attend it."
So why don't the CHRISTIAN students have their OWN graduation at a CHURCH?
"---> Even the Christian ones."
Yep, just CAN'T openly PRAY...BECAUSE ITS A FVCKING SCHOOL!!!!!!
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Gecko
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Reged: 06/01/04
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The Christian decided to use the captive audience to PREACH at them. Bad choice and one of the MAJOR reasons people are leaving religion in DROVES.
---> Actually, the reason why people are leaving religion is because Atheists have converted them.
You folks are ANNOYING.
---> Yes you are...only slightly more than the guys who run around in suits and robes.
And honestly, for DECADES, us non believers has stood there silently, bowed our heads, and remained silent out of RESPECT. And NOW, when WE ask YOU guys to TONE IT DOWN, and respect US, by remaining SILENT about YOUR beliefs, we are told you have a RIGHT, and we HAVE to listen, and WE are not respecting YOUR RIGHTS. Well, we DID, and ALL you folks did was get WORSE AND WORSE. But respect is a TWO WAY STREET, and you people have ZERO respect for OTHER peoples religion and/or beliefs.
---> Do you proofread before you post? I only ask because there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between 'tone it down' and 'remaining silent'. I don't know about you, but as an example, when I asked my kids to 'tone it down', I'm not telling them to shut up...only lower the volume. You want to eradicate Christianity...period. You want Christmas to ONLY be holiday about Jingle Bells, Frosty the Snowman and materialism. Thanksgiving should only be about turkey and football. Easter should only be about the Easter Bunny and chocolate. Should probably get rid of Halloween since it also has religious roots (pagan and Christian).
---> Now sure where the 'WORSE AND WORSE' is coming from. What is 'worse' than the Crusades? What is 'worse' than forced conversion or death? What is 'worse' now, than over the last 5 decades? Please be specific in your answer.
---> I really dislike it when you say "you people" because NO ONE HERE has ever done the things you accuse us of doing. NO ONE HERE has ever preached at you, has NEVER tried to convert you, has NEVER ridiculed your beliefs, etc. You say that respect is a two-way street, but you only travel one-way. You want us to be respectful of YOU, but where is your respect of us? You constantly call us names***, your constantly ridicule our beliefs.
*** - Yes, I have called you an idiot and an a$$hole, but that is based on your behavior, NOT because you're an Atheist or because I don't have an answer. On the other hand, you constantly call Christians on this board names because of their beliefs (or perceived beliefs) or because you're wrong but don't want to admit it.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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gr8Dad
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"You want to eradicate Christianity...period."
Yeah, thats why I say keep it in your CHURCH, right?
"You want Christmas to ONLY be holiday about Jingle Bells, Frosty the Snowman and materialism."
Nope AGAIN. I want a store to be free from Christian financial TERRORISM if they try and respect OTHER religions. The whole "Happy Holidays" thing is merely to respect ALL religions, instead of JUST Christianity. You folks didn't INVENT Christmas, stop acting like you OWN it.
"Thanksgiving should only be about turkey and football."
LMAO, Thanksgiving has NOTHING AT ALL to do with religion. But it would not surprise me to think you are under the impression that no one thanked ANYONE until Christianity.
"Should probably get rid of Halloween since it also has religious roots (pagan and Christian)."
Oddly enough, MANY MANY Christian groups have tried to eliminate it.
You are playing victim, when you and yours are solely in control. Its really kinda pathetic. But keep it up. You have EXCUSED your name calling and want to criticize MINE, LMAO, that is just SO out in left field, there is nothing further to discuss.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Gecko
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Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19880
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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A SCHOOL is not a PUBLIC VENUE, it is a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Any other BASIC ENGLISH WORDS I can define for you?
---> No...because obviously you don't understand basic English words. The dictionary defines 'venue' as "a place where events of a specific type are held". Since children are taught in schools, a school IS a venue.
Yeah, great option...
---> Neither here nor there; you said there were no other options when clearly there are. NEXT.
Yep, just CAN'T openly PRAY...BECAUSE ITS A FVCKING SCHOOL!!!!!!
---> Show me where it says that students can't pray at school? Oh, that's right, you can't because you can:
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer.
Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment's scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect."
The Supreme Court's decisions over the past forty years set forth principles that distinguish impermissible governmental religious speech from the constitutionally protected private religious speech of students. For example, teachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the Bible, or other religious activities. Nor may school officials attempt to persuade or compel students to participate in prayer or other religious activities. Such conduct is "attributable to the State" and thus violates the Establishment Clause.
Similarly, public school officials may not themselves decide that prayer should be included in school-sponsored events. In Lee v. Weisman, for example, the Supreme Court held that public school officials violated the Constitution in inviting a member of the clergy to deliver a prayer at a graduation ceremony. Nor may school officials grant religious speakers preferential access to public audiences, or otherwise select public speakers on a basis that favors religious speech. In Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, for example, the Court invalidated a school's football game speaker policy on the ground that it was designed by school officials to result in pregame prayer, thus favoring religious expression over secular expression.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," and the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Likewise, local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against student prayer or religious speech. For instance, where schools permit student expression on the basis of genuinely neutral criteria and students retain primary control over the content of their expression, the speech of students who choose to express themselves through religious means such as prayer is not attributable to the state and therefore may not be restricted because of its religious content. Student remarks are not attributable to the state simply because they are delivered in a public setting or to a public audience. As the Supreme Court has explained: "The proposition that schools do not endorse everything they fail to censor is not complicated," and the Constitution mandates neutrality rather than hostility toward privately initiated religious expression.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Sherron
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Reged: 11/25/06
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""Red is one of the people who have served to protect your right to speak freely. So I will clarify it for you, enjoy your freedom to be an a$$hole to one of those who have served to defend your right to do so."
So was Nidal Hasan, you want to defend HIM as well?"
Enjoy your freedom to be an a$$hole to one of those who have served to defend your right to do so, by comparing his actions of defending a student's right to free speech to the actions of a mass murdering terrorist who killed 13 people and wounded 32.
Analogy fail, level expert.
Have you found the law yet that prohibits student-initiated prayer, or will there be just more appalling personal attacks from you to deflect from this?
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gr8Dad
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Yep, I was calling Red a murdering terrorist, you got me...and its DONE.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19880
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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And why THING about SCHOOL differentiates it from all of the other things? Oh yeah, SCHOOL IS MANDATORY
---> Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I said.
I am NOT trying to convert you to anything, just trying to get you and your to SHUT UP about YOUR beliefs to MY kids
---> Huh...I have never met your kids much less spoken to them about anything.
Then SHUT THE FVCK UP about it!!!
---> We keep telling you that, but you don't listen.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Sherron
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Reged: 11/25/06
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"Yep, I was calling Red a murdering terrorist, you got me...and its DONE."
Not sure you needed to confirm the comparison, pretty sure everybody got it the first time around.
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19880
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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Yeah, thats why I say keep it in your CHURCH, right?
---> Which is in the public and you have repeatedly said that religion shouldn't be public.
Nope AGAIN. I want a store to be free from Christian financial TERRORISM if they try and respect OTHER religions. The whole "Happy Holidays" thing is merely to respect ALL religions, instead of JUST Christianity. You folks didn't INVENT Christmas, stop acting like you OWN it.
---> Yes again. First of all, saying "Merry Christmas" does NOT disrespect other religions...doesn't force anyone to acknowledge Christ...it's just a freaking holiday greeting. I could understand being offended if I was saying "Happy Birthday Jesus" and demanding in some manner that you respond in kind.
---> Second...if say "Happy Holidays" isn't a big deal, then why is saying "Merry Christmas"? Why the demand to change it?
---> Third...NO ONE is demanding/requiring you to celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday; it might surprise you to learn that Santa Claus, Frosty and Scrooge were NOT the "Three Wise Men". So why the push to make it a totally secular holiday?
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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english7
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I agree with Gr8. This kid did something he knew would stir up anger. He pulled a fast one by ripping up his prepared speech and got his religious point in before an audience made up of family and friends of graduating seniors.
It was a public school, not a private one. As such, it must follow the rules set forth by the community Board of Ed. and taxpayers.
How likely was it that anyone in attendance who did not like his sneaking little change would leave before seeing the ceremony to its end? Not very. This kid had a captive audience and knew it.
A more appropriate action would have been for him to lead everyone in a silent prayer/meditation. Then everyone would have their way.
"the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression."
This was not "private speech."
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Gecko
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Reged: 06/01/04
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This was not "private speech."
---> Yes is was. I think you are confusing the 'private' part of it; it's 'private' as in 'personal' NOT as 'not in public'.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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spinnerdegrassi
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Posts: 8000
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Shitdicks like this kid will open their mouth up with their religious babble at some point in the workplace. They're too brainwashed to think otherwise. Then when they get fired for trying to promote their fake religion, they'll complain about how christians are persecuted in this country.
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gr8Dad
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I honestly got SO tired of Sherron and Gecko's BS about this, and their double speak and double stabdards, I put them both on ignore. Just not gonna engage, too content with where I am living.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Gecko
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19880
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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Yeah, thats why I say keep it in your CHURCH, right?
---> Uh huh. Stalin was raised in the Georgian Orthodox faith, then he became an atheist because it was a better way to control the masses than using religion. Initially, you were were free to worship in private and in your church, but public displays of religion outside of such designated areas was prohibited. In addition, religious institutions were not allowed to express their views in any type of mass media.
Nope AGAIN. I want a store to be free from Christian financial TERRORISM if they try and respect OTHER religions. The whole "Happy Holidays" thing is merely to respect ALL religions, instead of JUST Christianity. You folks didn't INVENT Christmas, stop acting like you OWN it.
---> Yes again, because you have been very clear that you want Christians to 'shut up'. PEOPLE have the right to 'vote' with their money...it's called BOYCOTTING.
LMAO, Thanksgiving has NOTHING AT ALL to do with religion.
---> Sorry to say: "Prayers of thanks and special thanksgiving ceremonies are common among almost all religions after harvests and at other times. The Thanksgiving holiday's history in North America is rooted in English traditions dating from the Protestant Reformation. It also has aspects of a harvest festival, even though the harvest in New England occurs well before the late-November date on which the modern Thanksgiving holiday is celebrated."
Oddly enough, MANY MANY Christian groups have tried to eliminate it.
---> Just like Atheists are trying to eliminate any religious connection to Christmas.
You are playing victim, when you and yours are solely in control. Its really kinda pathetic.
---> Sorry hon, but you Atheists the one playing the victim. OMG...gotta get rid of that cross commemorating a fallen police officer on the highway...might go blind IF you catch sigh of it. OMG...can't have anyone praying in public...might go deaf if you hear it. OMG...can't say Merry Christmas...might be struck moot.
---> Where is the 'worse' that you were whining about? And why don't you point out where anyone HERE, since you keep saying "you Christians/you people" have done any of thing you keep saying we have done.
You have EXCUSED your name calling and want to criticize MINE, LMAO, that is just SO out in left field, there is nothing further to discuss.
---> I didn't excuse it and it's not out of left field because if you read about the name calling, you ALSO read about how YOU said that respect is a two-way street, but no one has received any respect from you.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Gecko
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Reged: 06/01/04
Posts: 19880
Loc: Third rock from the sun
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I honestly got SO tired of Sherron and Gecko's BS about this, and their double speak and double stabdards
---> Translation: I can't refute anything they say. They won't allow me to twist their words. They won't let me use analogies that have nothing to do with the discussion. They keep reminding about the stuff I'm not answering. The repost stuff I have said in the past to prove that I'm a hypocrite.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Sherron
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Posts: 20167
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"I honestly got SO tired of Sherron and Gecko's BS about this, and their double speak and double stabdards, I put them both on ignore. Just not gonna engage, too content with where I am living."
Ah yes, nothing like getting in one more attack before the public declaration of "La la la, I caaaaan't heeeeeear youuuuu"... but, I get it... you have come on "my thread" attacking, insulting, belittling, name calling, bullying, all in an effort to stifle free speech, merely on the basis that you disagree with it. I've remained civil and respectful to you in our disagreement, and when you couldn't force your baseless and unconstitutional opinion through, you decided that you do not want to hear any more about views that you disagree with, that you couldn't proof wrong, that you couldn't bully into submission, that you couldn't shut down...
Double standards, let's see... it was certainly good to see you go from being against freedom of speech, to for it, to now against it...
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english7
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"---> Yes is was. I think you are confusing the 'private' part of it; it's 'private' as in 'personal' NOT as 'not in public'. "
Please elaborate because, yes, I'm confused by your (or my) understanding of "private" speech.
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Redlegg
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Public and Private have nothing to do with location. In the court cases about this, public and private refer to the origin of the speech. Public would be the government, private would be the citizen. If someone is acting as an agent of the school, or the government, then it would be public speech. Announcements, classes, etc. If it is an individual speaking, and originates with the individual, and not on behalf of the school, then it is private.
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english7
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"The right to engage in voluntary prayer or religious discussion free from discrimination does not include the right to have a captive audience listen or to compel other students to participate. Teachers and school administrators should ensure that no student is in any way coerced to participate in religious activity"
From "Student Religious Expression in Public Schools: United States Department of Education Guidelines"
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english7
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Lee v.Weisman (1992)
Prohibited school-sponsored prayer delivered by invited clergy at a school commencement, on the grounds that graduating students were being forced to participate in a religious ceremony
Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe (2000)
Ruled that public schools may not sponsor student recited prayer at athletic contests or other school events
The courts have drawn a sharp distinction between officially sponsored religious speech, such as a benediction by an invited clergyman at a commencement ceremony, and private religious speech by students. The Supreme Court made clear in Lee v.Weisman (1992) that a clergyman’s benediction at a public school event would violate the separation of church and state. Judges usually reach that same conclusion when school officials cooperate with students to produce student-delivered religious messages. But federal courts are more divided in cases involving students acting on their own to include a religious sentiment or prayer at a school commencement or a similar activity.
Some courts, particularly in the South, have upheld the constitutionality of student-initiated religious speech, emphasizing the private origins of this kind of religious expression .As long as school officials did not encourage or explicitly approve the contents, those courts have upheld religious content in student commencement speeches.
In Adler v. Duval County School Board (1996), for example, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals approved a system at a Florida high school in which the senior class, acting independently of school officials, selected a class member to deliver a commencement address. School officials neither influenced the choice of speaker nor screened the speech. Under those circumstances, the appeals court ruled that the school was not responsible for the religious content of the address.
Other courts, however, have invalidated school policies that permit student speakers to include religious sentiments in graduation addresses. One leading case is ACLU v. Black Horse Pike Regional Board of Education (1996), in which the senior class
of a New Jersey public high school selected the student speaker by a vote without knowing in advance the contents of the student’s remarks. The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals nevertheless ruled that the high school could not permit religious content in the commencement speech. The court reasoned that students attending the graduation ceremony were as coerced to acquiesce in a student-led prayer as they would be if the prayer were offered by a member of the clergy, the practice forbidden by Weisman in 1992. (Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, who was then a member of the appeals court, joined a dissenting opinion in the case, arguing that the graduating students’ rights to religious and expressive freedom should prevail over the
Establishment Clause concerns.)
Similarly, in Bannon v. School District of Palm Beach County (2004),the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that Florida school officials were right to order the removal of student-created religious messages and symbols from a school beautification
project. The court reasoned that the project was not intended as a forum for the expression of students’ private views but rather as a school activity for which school officials would be held responsible.
From Religion and the Public Schools
[censored]://[censored].pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Issues/Church-State_Law/religion-public-schools.pdf
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