BetsyR
member
Reged: 07/12/07
Posts: 187
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I'd like your advice. Sorry my background story is so long.
STBX & I are both 55, married 30 years, 4 grown children. We live in New York, way out in the boonies. I've been a SAHP mostly; since we moved to a rural area for his work, I've been unable to find anything approaching a real job. I make about $10K/year doing part-time stuff for which I have to drive up to 100 miles round trip -- once I put gas in the tank, it's minimum wage. I felt trapped -- kids live far away, few friends in town, no good job options & a husband who gradually became distant & deceitful.
He's a self-employed professional (I supported us while he earned his degree), he makes over $200K when he chooses to work full time. These days he prefers to pursue his hobbies instead of his career, works less than 30 hours/week by his own choice. Typical mid-life crisis, I believe. Last Xmas eve he got drunk, told me he'd found someone who appreciates him, & walked out. It was a relief, actually, since the man I loved & lived w/ had walked out on me about 5 years ago.
I had tried & tried to work on our marriage, but he wouldn't tell me why he always seemed miserable, why he no longer enjoyed the things we used to do together, why he wouldn't come to bed until past midnight.
For the last 6 months we've been unable to move forward toward divorce. He rarely opens my emails; he almost never answers them, so I have no idea why he's delaying (maybe he thinks I'll take him back, lol!) I could force the issue & have papers served on him, but I've had more urgent things to attend to: my mother was ill & then his mother was ill, I had to fix some messes he made with our joint finances, & I had to update my credentials in order to find a job now that I was finally free to relocate. I got a dream job that starts in Aug., but I'm an entry level worker at age 55 -- I'll be making about $35K.
During this time I earned less than $3000. He wouldn't send me a monthly check for household expenses. He did send checks at irregular intervals, but only because he knows I might come into the diner where he hangs out & ask for money in front of the neighbors. He lets me know that the money is a gift -- I only get it b/c he's such a great guy(!) He accuses me of all sorts of outlandish financial improprietys, w/o any basis in fact of course. He implies he can't afford to spend money on keeping up the house he walked away from, when he has already spend many thousands of $$$ on the OW. I don't think my stbx realizes that by NY law, our incomes are marital resources to be shared (I can hear yregna cussin' from way over here!)
Anyway, I'm going to insist on a financial settlement conference soon, whther he's ready or not. Here's where I'd like your advice:
1. We own a big house, free & clear. Since I put hubby through school, we own his professional practise together according to NY law. The practice is worth about $100K more than the house. I want to split this so I get the house & he gets the business.
2. In my mind, this division means I shouldn't accept spousal support, since to do so would be to keep a claim on his business. Am I correct on this?
3. I hope to get more than 50% of our marital assets, since he earns about 5 times what I'll be earning. Can I get this? Say 60/40?
4. If I could get this, would we split all assets 60/40? Assets include IRAs, mutual funds, checking/savings accounts, etc. No debts, I think, but we haven't done discovery yet.
5. He has a large paid-up whole life policy. If I don't collect support, I shouldn't be the beneficiary of the policy, right? Could our 4 kids be the beneficiaries?
Thanks for your help.
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Redlegg
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/05/06
Posts: 26679
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On the face of it, it doesn't sound fair, because you are projecting the future, but basing it on the past. You say the marital assets are to be shared, and that makes sense. But then you go into the future since he will be making 5 times what you make they should no longer be shared equally. I am no expert, and this is just my mind at work, but it sounds like he put say 75% of the existing assets in whatever they are now, and you put 25%, now if you were to split it 50-50 (equally) the offset is already there for what has happened, you want to do it 60/40 for what is going to happen, and to be honest that doesn't sound fair. Now if you were to split everything down the middle today, and negotiate from that as far as the business and the house, say he gave you 60% of one IRA for the offset on the 100K difference between the business and the house, that makes sense. The spousal support seems seperate, and based on a need that exists, you said you have updated your credentials and you put him through school. Was he the reason you were able to update them and if so, that seems to be along the same lines of putting him through school. If your kids are not the beneficiary, then that sounds like it should be his choice who he selects. I can't speak to the legality of the division, only what sounds fair, and the assets should be split 50/50, and negotiated from there, and then spousal support determined based on actual need. It is never going to seem fair to someone, and fairness is relative, it may not be fair, but it may be something everyone can live with.
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Goodmom
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/17/07
Posts: 2010
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Quote:
I'd like your advice. Sorry my background story is so long.
STBX & I are both 55, married 30 years, 4 grown children. We live in New York, way out in the boonies. I've been a SAHP mostly; since we moved to a rural area for his work, I've been unable to find anything approaching a real job. I make about $10K/year doing part-time stuff for which I have to drive up to 100 miles round trip -- once I put gas in the tank, it's minimum wage. I felt trapped -- kids live far away, few friends in town, no good job options & a husband who gradually became distant & deceitful.
He's a self-employed professional (I supported us while he earned his degree), he makes over $200K when he chooses to work full time. These days he prefers to pursue his hobbies instead of his career, works less than 30 hours/week by his own choice. Typical mid-life crisis, I believe. Last Xmas eve he got drunk, told me he'd found someone who appreciates him, & walked out. It was a relief, actually, since the man I loved & lived w/ had walked out on me about 5 years ago.
I had tried & tried to work on our marriage, but he wouldn't tell me why he always seemed miserable, why he no longer enjoyed the things we used to do together, why he wouldn't come to bed until past midnight.
For the last 6 months we've been unable to move forward toward divorce. He rarely opens my emails; he almost never answers them, so I have no idea why he's delaying (maybe he thinks I'll take him back, lol!) I could force the issue & have papers served on him, but I've had more urgent things to attend to: my mother was ill & then his mother was ill, I had to fix some messes he made with our joint finances, & I had to update my credentials in order to find a job now that I was finally free to relocate. I got a dream job that starts in Aug., but I'm an entry level worker at age 55 -- I'll be making about $35K.
During this time I earned less than $3000. He wouldn't send me a monthly check for household expenses. He did send checks at irregular intervals, but only because he knows I might come into the diner where he hangs out & ask for money in front of the neighbors. He lets me know that the money is a gift -- I only get it b/c he's such a great guy(!) He accuses me of all sorts of outlandish financial improprietys, w/o any basis in fact of course. He implies he can't afford to spend money on keeping up the house he walked away from, when he has already spend many thousands of $$$ on the OW. I don't think my stbx realizes that by NY law, our incomes are marital resources to be shared (I can hear yregna cussin' from way over here!)
Anyway, I'm going to insist on a financial settlement conference soon, whther he's ready or not. Here's where I'd like your advice:
1. We own a big house, free & clear. Since I put hubby through school, we own his professional practise together according to NY law. The practice is worth about $100K more than the house. I want to split this so I get the house & he gets the business.
I would ask for some of the equity in the business as well, since it is worth considerably more than the house.
2. In my mind, this division means I shouldn't accept spousal support, since to do so would be to keep a claim on his business. Am I correct on this?
No, alimony would not give you a claim on his business.
3. I hope to get more than 50% of our marital assets, since he earns about 5 times what I'll be earning. Can I get this? Say 60/40?
How much you get all depends on the judge. Ask for more than you want and settle for less.
4. If I could get this, would we split all assets 60/40? Assets include IRAs, mutual funds, checking/savings accounts, etc. No debts, I think, but we haven't done discovery yet.
It all depends on how a judge decides to split it if the two of you can't agree.
The judge could give you the house, him the business and then give you more of the other assets to make up for the fact that the business is worth more than the house.
Or he could split everything down the middle.
5. He has a large paid-up whole life policy. If I don't collect support, I shouldn't be the beneficiary of the policy, right? Could our 4 kids be the beneficiaries?
Since the children are adults, he gets to decide who the beneficiary is. Now, if you get alimony, you could have it put in the court order that he has to have you named as beneficiary during the duration of alimony. And with the length of your marriage and given the big disparity in your income, you will probably be able to get alimony for at least half of your marriage if not longer.
BTW, his working less is an attempt to show that he has lower income and shouldn't pay alimony. Don't let him get away with that nonsense. Make sure you have copies of all of your tax returns for the past 3 years to show that he is doing this deliberately.
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matilda
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/11/04
Posts: 2087
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If you haven't consulted with an attorney you need to do so NOW! Don't hire the first one you talk with, instead interview several and pick the one you feel you can work with. I think you need to be proactive here. He might be hiding assets from you so you need to dig up all statements you can find such as bank statements, investments, insurance, tax returns, etc. You need to keep these in a safe place where he can't get them. If you haven't already changed the locks on your house I would consider doing so.
I am assuming you are a teaching if you are talking about updating credentials. If so, you will not reach a decent salary or retirement level when you go to retire. This means you need to make sure you ask for whatever you can get legally. If you forego spousal support, then calculate an estimated amount it would have been and ask for additional assets. Make sure to ask for disclosure of assets from him so that if you determine later on that he was hiding things you have legal recourse. The bottom line here is that you need to make sure you get an equitable distribution of marital funds/assets to help you through retirement. You need to get moving on this before he starts splurging on his second childhood dreams of the sports car etc. Never agree to anything before you have given yourself adequate time to consider it-don't let your emotions rule you. I hope you can find a good confidante in order to bounce ideas off of about what is fair. Possibly your parents, good friend, ??. As to whether your mentioned scenario is fair--I don't know. Without solid numbers it is impossible to tell.
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BetsyR
member
Reged: 07/12/07
Posts: 187
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Thanks, Redlegg, for your prompt & thoughtful reply. Let me ask a few things about what you said:
"You say the marital assets are to be shared, and that makes sense."
I was talking about how my stbx is unwilling to share what we currently have togehter. We are married -- no papers filed yet. We own a house together, but he won't pay the bills or even tell me when a bill is past due. Yes, this messes up his credit rating, but it leaves me w/o utilities during a snowstorm, which is worse. When something like this happens, I leave a message w/ one of his co-workers, "Please tell my hubby I need a copy of the property tax bill + $5000 for back property taxes." Only when I humiliate him do I get any money for our joint expenses! That's why I don't want alimony, even though I'm clearly entitled to it under NY law. I'd always be taking him back to court to get the $$$. So I'd prefer to get more assets & skip the alimony.
"it sounds like he put say 75% of the existing assets in whatever they are now, and you put 25%, now if you were to split it 50-50 (equally) the offset is already there for what has happened, you want to do it 60/40 for what is going to happen, and to be honest that doesn't sound fair."
I see what you mean, but this is a 30-year marriage, not a business. There were times when I put in all the income, times when we both worked & earned the same. I gave up my career b/c he wanted to move to a place w/ VERY few jobs. Also, we agreed that I would not work outside the home while our 4 chldren were young, so obviously we chose not to tot up each spouse's financial contribution to our marriage. Seems to me it's unfair now to look at how much money each spouse put in -- in any case, that's not how NY law looks at it.
"The spousal support seems seperate, and based on a need that exists"
Couldn't the need be met by giving me more assets? Then we part ways & each earn what we can (about $200K for him, about $35K for me.) But at my age I can't possibly earn enough for retirement.
"you said you have updated your credentials and you put him through school. Was he the reason you were able to update them and if so, that seems to be along the same lines of putting him through school."
I finished my master's a few months after we married. My employer paid for my degree. Then I put hubby through 4 years of grad school -- his parents & mine both helped us some. Stbx didn't pay for me to upgrade my credentials. that was a matter of filling out some paperwork, passing a security check, etc.
"If your kids are not the beneficiary, then that sounds like it should be his choice who he selects."
I thought a paid-up policy was part of our marital property. I don't want to profit from his demise -- but I sure don't want the OW to get the money!! So can I ask for a clause in the settlement saying that our 4 kids will be beneficiaries?
So when I ask what's fair, I'm asking, "If I choose to forego spousal support after a 30-year marriage, what division of our assets would be appropriate?"
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BetsyR
member
Reged: 07/12/07
Posts: 187
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Thanks, Goodmom, for your good advice!
You wrote, "I would ask for some of the equity in the business as well, since it is worth considerably more than the house."
I want as clean a break as possible. I don't want anything to do w/ his business, which he's kind of running into the ground anyway. I'd rather have more than 50% of an IRA.
You wrote, "How much you get all depends on the judge. Ask for more than you want and settle for less."
In NY, it's quite rare, I believe, for divorcing couples to end up in front of a judge. I want us to agree on a settlement in a 4-way conference w/ him & me & our lawyers. That's why I'm asking for advice on this forum, in addition to talking to my lawyer. But I will do what you say & ask for more than I expect to get. How much more though? If I want 2/3 of our total assets, should I ask for 3/4?
You wrote. "Since the children are adults, he gets to decide who the beneficiary is. Now, if you get alimony, you could have it put in the court order that he has to have you named as beneficiary during the duration of alimony. And with the length of your marriage and given the big disparity in your income, you will probably be able to get alimony for at least half of your marriage if not longer."
As I said, I don't want alimony if I can possibly get more assets. I mentioned having the kids as the beneficires on the life ins. policy b/c I don't want him to w/draw money against his policy to spend on his new honey.
"BTW, his working less is an attempt to show that he has lower income and shouldn't pay alimony. Don't let him get away with that nonsense. Make sure you have copies of all of your tax returns for the past 3 years to show that he is doing this deliberately." Yup, I think so too! I got the returns. I'll have the business valued if he claims he's too poor to do what I ask. The business, & the license I helped him earn, are both marital assets in NY.
Betsy
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BetsyR
member
Reged: 07/12/07
Posts: 187
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Thanks so much Matilda! After reading your useful advice, I feel that I'm on the right track. I think I have a good attorney.
Stbx has indeed been hiding assets from me -- he opened a new bank acct & send statements to a PO box I just found out about, for example. I believe our joint tax returns have not been accurate for a few years. If he hid income from the IRS, then karma's gonna bite him in the nether regions! Unfortunately, I believed what little he told me about his business, & I signed those returns too. Does anyone on this forum have experience w/ the IRS innocent spouse rules?
I changed the locks on the house but he had already snuck back in & taken some papers. I replaced them, but that takes sooo much time & effort!
"I am assuming you are teaching if you are talking about updating credentials." Sorry I can't reveal what I do. It's an unusual occupation & would give me away if stbx saw this post. But I need a master's to do my job.
"If you forego spousal support, then calculate an estimated amount it would have been and ask for additional assets." Thanks! Will do!!
"You need to get moving on this before he starts splurging on his second childhood dreams of the sports car etc." Too late! He already bought the OW a new car, a cruise, & lots of other stuff. I intend to ask for the $$$ I think he spent on her BEFORE any division of assets. Do you think I'll get it? Even if I don't, it will be fun to see his face when I ask!
"don't let your emotions rule you."
Great advice but oh so hard to follow!
" I hope you can find a good confidante in order to bounce ideas off of about what is fair. Possibly your parents, good friend, ??"
I'm blessed w/ several confidantes. But if I'm close enough to someone to talk about these messy details, that person won't be a good judge of what's fair. My family & friends all want me to ask for the moon.
One very good thing: there is enough for both stbx & me to live very comfortable, though not extravagant, lives -- as long as the OW doesn't take him to the cleaners. I dont want wife #2 to enjoy the house that wife #1 can't afford to keep. I don't want the lovebirds having romantic getaways every other weekend unless I can afford to fly to visit my kids when I want! But if we live the lifestyles we've had up to now, there's enough for 2 households.
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BetsyR
member
Reged: 07/12/07
Posts: 187
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Any other advice out there? Could I hear from some of you carpal tunnel people, like Maury or Gecko?
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googledad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 10207
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1. We own a big house, free & clear. Since I put hubby through school, we own his professional practise together according to NY law. The practice is worth about $100K more than the house. I want to split this so I get the house & he gets the business.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can make any agreement you like but there is no law in NY that says the marital estate has to be split equally , just equitably . In general the party that needs more property will receive more .
2. In my mind, this division means I shouldn't accept spousal support, since to do so would be to keep a claim on his business. Am I correct on this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No , spousal support in a long term marriage is meant to equalize the standards of living of both parties and as repayment for the contributions of the lessor earning spouse for any help they provided for the other spouse's greater earning potential .
3. I hope to get more than 50% of our marital assets, since he earns about 5 times what I'll be earning. Can I get this? Say 60/40?
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes , or more .
4. If I could get this, would we split all assets 60/40? Assets include IRAs, mutual funds, checking/savings accounts, etc. No debts, I think, but we haven't done discovery yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes , less any marital debt .
5. He has a large paid-up whole life policy. If I don't collect support, I shouldn't be the beneficiary of the policy, right? Could our 4 kids be the beneficiaries?
>>>>>>>>>>> No idea
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Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
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Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
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I would not risk staking a claim in the business. If you have it, you have the debt that goes along with it too, expecially if he is running it into the ground as you say. You would also be legally responsible for the debts of that place. No thanks...too risky.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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