esperanza
recently joined
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 5
|
|
Details:
We've been married for over 11 years and have one 8yo child, who has special educational needs and has always been homeschooled. We are both in our mid-30s. My husband earns $150-190K per year. I earn $0, since I quit working when I had the baby almost 9 years ago. My previous highest income level was about $38K per year, but my field is technology-dependent, and most of the tools I used are now obsolete. I doubt I could earn $38K now. My husband and I both would want our son to continue to be homeschooled regardless of whether we divorce; this means that I would not be able to hold a full-time job. Neither of us has children from a previous relationship, an ex-spouse, or other similar financial obligations.
Husband has been adulterous several times in the past, but is not currently involved in an extramarital relationship.
I haven't filed yet, and don't know if I will claim fault or not.
Can you give me an idea of how much spousal support I would receive, and for how many years?
E
|
gdave44
member
Reged: 11/04/06
Posts: 151
Loc: New Mexico
|
|
http://www.pennglazier.com/support2006/
Can't say specifically for Pennsylvania, but normally fault has no bearing anymore.
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
You are certainly a strong candidate for spousal support.
Why does your H's income vary so dramatically? Over-time/bonuses?
Taking the bottom of $150k and top of $190k, I would say you are looking at alimony of about $60 to $80k a year. Then you'll get child support on top of that. Alimony will probably last 1/2 the length of the marriage, but given the special needs of your son, you should certainly request it until he's 18, and then 4 years after that, to give you time to get back into the job market and self-sufficient.
You are going to need a VERY GOOD lawyer. Do not hesistate in finding one quickly.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
esperanza
recently joined
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 5
|
|
I have the name of a lawyer who is supposed to be great for SS issues in PA. Her initial consult fee is $475 and then she requires a $10K retainer. I don't know how I will come up with that much cash at once, especially without first discussing it with my husband. I have heard that I should be the one to file first, though. How do most spouses do this (and withdraw a large sum of money - even the $475 would be immediately noticed)? If it is a game of 'who files first' then wouldn't it be in my best interest not to tell him what I'm doing? If so, how do I do this without his knowledge if our joint account is my only source of money?
At this point my husband wants me to stay in the marriage but after the serial adultery, and several failures in marriage counseling, I'm done. He knows that I'm seriously considering leaving, but he is not taking any action. I think he thinks I will not take action on my own. I know for a fact that he does not expect to pay any spousal support at all if we split, and he probably doesn't realize that child support would be around $1400 per month. It's all going to be a big shock to him and he's probably going to fight it, including possibly quitting his job for a lower-paying one so he's not on the hook for a big alimony payment. I have heard that this is frowned on, but can the courts really make him keep his current job?
His income varies dramatically because of bonuses. His base salary is $150K but he has the potential to earn up to an additional $40+K in bonuses. This past year, his total income was about $190K, but he does have the potential to earn more or less money in bonuses depending on different variables.
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
If your name is on an account, it's YOUR money to spend anyway you see fit. If you think that once your H finds out that you are filing, he'll take all of the money, you can put your marital cash in an escrow account to keep it safe while your divorce is being settled.
Take the $$$ (it's yours too, you don't need his permission to spend it if your name is on the account) and go consult with an attorney.
It doesn't matter if your H sees the money missing, there is nothing he can do about it. However, he might try to "get back at you" by moving all of the money, so you might want to beat him to the punch.
You can also seek out an attorney who offers a no-cost consultation, so your H will never know.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
esperanza
recently joined
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 5
|
|
Thank you for your reply. I know that it's just as much my money as his, but I can tell that once this starts it's going to go downhill fast.
How would I go about setting up an escrow account? Is there a FAQ about this that I can use to educate myself?
|
guerino1
addict
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 525
|
|
[quote]http://www.pennglazier.com/support2006/
Can't say specifically for Pennsylvania, but normally fault has no bearing anymore. [/quote]
Hi,
This depends on the state. For example, I learned that there is a precedence in the state of NJ, based on a case called Mani v. Mani, that allows marital fault to be used as a factor for determining alimony if a judge believes any one of the two criteria (specified by the appellate court as part of the appeals result) are met. So, to blindly say that fault has no bearing is not necessarily accurate. It depends on the state, the precedence, the circumstances... and, ultimately, on how good your lawyer is/isn't.
I hope this helps.
My Best,
Frank
Edited by guerino1 (06/24/08 12:21 PM)
|
guerino1
addict
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 525
|
|
[quote]Thank you for your reply. I know that it's just as much my money as his, but I can tell that once this starts it's going to go downhill fast.
How would I go about setting up an escrow account? Is there a FAQ about this that I can use to educate myself? [/quote]
Hi,
I recommend you're very careful about what you do and how you do it. It's one thing to put things aside, legitimately, for your son and for handling the divorce. It's another thing to secrete assets in a way that looks like embezzlement. In one case, you can justify it clearly to the judge. In the other, the judge may use it against you.
Also, you can really only touch what the two of you have joint access to. If you start to move cash, your spouse will more than likely get angry, hostile, and aggressive. Do you really want your divorce to go in that ugly direction? Especially if you're child(ren) is/are involved? Be very careful about what you choose to do. You may do more damage than good.
My Best,
Frank
|
gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30195
|
|
Assuming he makes between $150k and $190K, that is a variance of $40K, split that and add it to the lower number (or subtract it from the higher number) that is an average income of $170K. Halfway between $60K and $80K is $70K. You are suggesting that she gets FOURTY ONE PERCENT of his income BEFORE child support? Then he pays at LEAST 20% in child support. That is 20% of his remaining 100K, which is $20K. So, she gets $90K to $100K a year of his $170K?
Are you on CRACK? It was an ELEVEN YEAR MARRIAGE! Then she should get that till the kid is TWENTY TWO??
You are LOST, I swear....
--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
|
esperanza
recently joined
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 5
|
|
I'm really not out to get him. Honestly. I'm not angry anymore, I just recognize that the marriage is probably over and I need to find out what my options are--especially given the circumstances with our son.
All I really need to know at this point is what I can realistically expect in terms of amount and duration of spousal support, given the circumstances. Some people say that as long as you've been married for over 10 years, you'll get SS for half the duration of the marriage (or 5-6 years in my case). Some people say that NOTHING is guaranteed in PA, and that I could end up walking away with zero SS. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in between. I do plan to consult an attorney about this. But I was hoping to get some solid replies here about what, realistically, my outcome would be in terms of SS.
The truth is that our educational expenses for our son would have been quite large if I had not been staying home for years. Also, I've sacrificed a lot of my career potential and experience (not to mention earnings, IRA contributions, and Social Security) in order to take care of our son, the family home, etc. My husband works very long hours, and I do everything from clean/shop/cook to mowing the lawn, taking out the trash, cleaning the cat litter, and shoveling snow. I say this so that you don't perceive me as a gold-digging wife of a 6-figure breadwinner, who spends her time getting manicures while a cleaning person scrubs the toilets. I've been trying to save this marriage for years despite his serial infidelity, and am realizing now that I'm out of energy to continue doing it.
|
gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30195
|
|
...but in Texas, once you take a spouse BACK after an affair, you can no longer use that affair as fault. You might want to check that.
--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
|
Marie_ss
member
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 100
|
|
I agree with gr8Dad, Susan's proposal is way over the top, especially when you add CS into the mix. I'm sure it will just make your husband angry and you don't want to start separation with that much bitterness over money.
Have you figured out a realistic amount you'll need to maintain a reasonable living for you and your son? You need to realize that your family income is great for a single household but greatly reduces available funds when supporting two separate households. This means you'll need to eventually seek employment to become self-sufficient.
Since your STBX is aware of your unhappiness, he may be open to reasonable negotiation. I am a big advocate of working this out between parties, especially since his preference is to continue homeschooling for your son. Good luck!
|
guerino1
addict
Reged: 01/14/08
Posts: 525
|
|
Hi,
An option is for the two of you to go to a mediator who will help you map out your expenses as well as what both of you can or can't expect.
If you're both committed to the process, you may get far more out of it than going to separate attorneys. An attorney is bound to the the best they can for the person they represent. A mediator is bound to represent both people and has a different agenda. That being said, there are good and bad mediators, just like there are good and bad attorneys.
I suggest you start with the mediator route. It shows good faith and effort. And, it could potentially save both of you a fortune in legal fees.
My Best,
Frank
|
esperanza
recently joined
Reged: 06/24/08
Posts: 5
|
|
I was on the fence about filing a fault claim - that isn't very important to me, and definitely isn't essential.
I think that our son and I need about $3500 per month, total, to live on. This would be just our bare minimum expenses with no extras.
We don't have any debt except for the house. If we split the assets down the middle, I could stay in the home and keep the current mortgage payment of about $1100 per month. $1400 in child support isn't going to be enough, obviously. Once I add in taxes, insurance, utilities, household/car maintenance expenses, and food and household supplies, $3500/month is just breaking even. Given an estimated $1400 in CS, that would put SS at $2100/month.
He will still take home almost $7000, or more (depending on bonuses) after he pays CS and SS, so it's not like this would be a financial hardship for him. Remember, we have no debt at all, except for the house, and I'd be taking on that loan. He would leave the marriage debt-free and with cash in the bank (from me buying him out of the house). $7000+/month AND no debt doesn't sound like a hardship to me.
Obviously I would prefer to have a bit more than $2100/month in SS, given the duration of our marriage and the amount of money that he makes. $2500-3000 would be enable me to have start saving for an emergency cushion for things like doctor's visits (we have a high deductible, so everything is out of pocket), car repair, etc.
I'm not opposed to working. I would welcome the chance to get a PT job during the time that our son is visiting my husband. However, his job has such long hours and includes irregular travel, so it would be almost impossible for me to plan this. Many times he gets 24 hours' notice before a week-long trip. Or he'll have last-minute meetings that don't end until 7 or 8pm, sometimes later. This sort of thing would greatly impact my ability to hold onto any sort of job, since I would then be responsible for our son if my husband was not available for scheduled visitation.
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
How would I go about setting up an escrow account? Is there a FAQ about this that I can use to educate myself?
+++++++
In my case, we had about $10,000 in a savings account I suspected my ex would try to take. So I wrote a check to my lawyer for that amount and he held it in escrow until our divorce was settled. He sent the escrow statements to ex and his lawyer so they could see the money was simply being held, not hidden.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
Esp, "bare minimum" has NOTHING to do with it. You deserve to live a life more than just "bare minimum" because you and your H have decided that you will be a stay-at-home mom to a special needs child.
My numbers are real, regardless of what Gr8dad says. Why? Because you are the one who, after the kid turns 18, will have been out of the workforce for OVER 10 years. You are the one who will be starting at entry level postions. YOu are the one who will have lost decades of raises, promotions, etc.... You will never regain those years, monitarily. All your H will have lost is 10 years of alimony, but he'll never loose the number of years, raises, etc... from having never left the workforce to care for a child.
I HIGHLY suggest you pick up the book "Fair Share Divorce for Women." It would show you clearly the income loss you will suffer vs. what your H will suffer due to the divorce. You are more of a disadvantage than you know, so please stop thinking about "bare minimum." Think about how much money you will need to live a reasonable life and still not be left with nothing once your son is grown.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
|
|
Your numbers are too high. She is not going to get more than half of his pay before CS on a short term marriage. You need to get realistic.
--------------------
13.1...because I am only half crazy!
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
I didn't give her half. I gave her $60k to $70k of his $150 to $190k. 1/2 would be $75k to $95k.
It's not based on the length of the marriage, but on the length of time she'll be out of the workforce given their special-needs child.
She will NEVER be able to recoupe her major earning years that she is losing for the sake of their child.
Her H will suffer no career set back and he needs to share in the true "cost" of the sacrifice she has already made and will continue to make to care for their child.
Read any state's guidelines. The care of special-needs children and the affect that has on one's career is a BIG factor in the determination of alimony. This isn't a simple case of a SAHM until the kids get old enough to go to school.
My numbers are fair and she'd be a fool to settle for "basic needs" when she is the one making all of the sacrifies.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
SCgirl
enthusiast
Reged: 01/27/08
Posts: 334
|
|
[quote]How would I go about setting up an escrow account? Is there a FAQ about this that I can use to educate myself? [/quote]
I knew when my stbx found out that I had consulted an attorney, he would close all of our joint accounts and I would have no money. (he had a history of keeping large sums of money in secret accounts, including overseas) We had about 120k in liquid assets. My attorney advised me to withdraw half from our joint accounts and open a new account with my name only. I put half of it into a 13 month cd and half into a money market account. He said to be sure to keep a very detailed accounting as we would declare it as a marital asset. I only had to use a small portion of the money as we were granted a speedy temp hearing where I was awarded temp ss and cs. I only recently had to dip into the funds to pay for school tuition. Today a judge ordered him to pay me back half of the tuition amount. My lawyer assured me that taking half was perfectly legal and as long as I declared it and kept good records and not "frittered" it away, a judge would not hold it against me.
|
Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
|
|
[quote]You are certainly a strong candidate for spousal support.
Why does your H's income vary so dramatically? Over-time/bonuses?
Taking the bottom of $150k and top of $190k, I would say you are looking at alimony of about $60 to $80k a year. Then you'll get child support on top of that. Alimony will probably last 1/2 the length of the marriage, but given the special needs of your son, you should certainly request it until he's 18, and then 4 years after that, to give you time to get back into the job market and self-sufficient.
You are going to need a VERY GOOD lawyer. Do not hesistate in finding one quickly. [/quote]
I made $250K and paid $15K a year in SS. Of course you will need a lawyer, but you are going to need a job too..you have the basics to renter the work force but maybe some re-education. Would hve to look at the state statutue and various case law. Susans estimate is way too high. Shelives ina June Cleaver world that simply no longer exist (and hasn't in a long time)
--------------------
GO CUBBIES!!!!
|
Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
|
|
[quote][quote]How would I go about setting up an escrow account? Is there a FAQ about this that I can use to educate myself? [/quote]
I knew when my stbx found out that I had consulted an attorney, he would close all of our joint accounts and I would have no money. (he had a history of keeping large sums of money in secret accounts, including overseas) We had about 120k in liquid assets. My attorney advised me to withdraw half from our joint accounts and open a new account with my name only. I put half of it into a 13 month cd and half into a money market account. He said to be sure to keep a very detailed accounting as we would declare it as a marital asset. I only had to use a small portion of the money as we were granted a speedy temp hearing where I was awarded temp ss and cs. I only recently had to dip into the funds to pay for school tuition. Today a judge ordered him to pay me back half of the tuition amount. My lawyer assured me that taking half was perfectly legal and as long as I declared it and kept good records and not "frittered" it away, a judge would not hold it against me. [/quote]
--> What you did is quite legal. I would have done the same. Now if you woulkd have pissed away the money, thats a different story. All you did was ensure your 1/2 would still be there, regardless.
--------------------
GO CUBBIES!!!!
|
Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
|
|
[quote]Assuming he makes between $150k and $190K, that is a variance of $40K, split that and add it to the lower number (or subtract it from the higher number) that is an average income of $170K. Halfway between $60K and $80K is $70K. You are suggesting that she gets FOURTY ONE PERCENT of his income BEFORE child support? Then he pays at LEAST 20% in child support. That is 20% of his remaining 100K, which is $20K. So, she gets $90K to $100K a year of his $170K?
Are you on CRACK? It was an ELEVEN YEAR MARRIAGE! Then she should get that till the kid is TWENTY TWO??
You are LOST, I swear.... [/quote]
Obviouly...rememberm this is a person who never piad nor reveiced support (if I remember right, she gave up SS formore assetts or some such nonsense). THAT happens in EVERY divorce case (like it's a normal or unique thing)
She has never been the subject of a SS judgement, on either end and why she posts this kind of info and even participates in this particular forum is beyond me. A TMZ overdose or soemthing but nothing she has ever stated he is close to reality.
--------------------
GO CUBBIES!!!!
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
She has never been the subject of a SS judgement, on either end and why she posts this kind of info and even participates in this particular forum is beyond me. A TMZ overdose or soemthing but nothing she has ever stated he is close to reality.
+++++++
Yes, I received significant alimony and had a long battle over it, so you are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.
What you are forgetting is that there is a special-needs child involved, and the H WANTS her to continue to homeschool him. Depending on the severity of his needs, she might not be able to work and the states recognizes this. The care of a special needs child and the career/income impact that has on the SAH parent is a big factor in the determination of alimony.
No way will they allow her to sit home and care for this child full time while he works and his career flourishes, only to leave her with nothing and "entry level" employment skills when the child turns 18. No way.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
|
|
[quote]She has never been the subject of a SS judgement, on either end and why she posts this kind of info and even participates in this particular forum is beyond me. A TMZ overdose or soemthing but nothing she has ever stated he is close to reality.
+++++++
Yes, I received significant alimony and had a long battle over it, so you are the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.
What you are forgetting is that there is a special-needs child involved, and the H WANTS her to continue to homeschool him. Depending on the severity of his needs, she might not be able to work and the states recognizes this. The care of a special needs child and the career/income impact that has on the SAH parent is a big factor in the determination of alimony.
No way will they allow her to sit home and care for this child full time while he works and his career flourishes, only to leave her with nothing and "entry level" employment skills when the child turns 18. No way. [/quote]
Yuo already said NUMEROUS times you gave up CS in exchange for more of the assets. Make up your mind.
--------------------
GO CUBBIES!!!!
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
Yuo already said NUMEROUS times you gave up CS in exchange for more of the assets. Make up your mind.
+++++++++
LOLOL I NEVER said any such thing. Who do you have me confused with? Get your story straight!
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30195
|
|
...while I agree that you got SS, I recall you saying that your ex AGREED to it, cause he thought it was the RIGHT THING TO DO?
--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
|
gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30195
|
|
...is ridiculous. She will NOT get 41% of his pretax income, simply not going to happen, and if she DOES float that number, he might just decide that homeschooling is too damn expensive, LOL.
--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
...while I agree that you got SS, I recall you saying that your ex AGREED to it, cause he thought it was the RIGHT THING TO DO?
++++++
Oh heck no. We agreed outside of court, the day before we were due in court to let the judge settle it.
I sat in a room with my lawyer. He sat in a room with his lawyer. The 2 lawyers went back in forth between rooms...our emotions were so high, we couldn't even speak to each other at that point.
It was awful, but we *did* come to our own agreement, outside of court.
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30195
|
|
...a "long battle" to setteling it BEFORE court and a lawyer walking back and forth between rooms?
Susan, before me and my first ex were finally divorced, she attempted to KILL ME with a car, she attempted to hire a HIT MAN (she was warned by the police), and she battled for EVERYTHING.
Sorry, but you do not know what a "battle" in family court is, your last post proves that.
--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
|
1966Gal
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 04/04/08
Posts: 10098
|
|
Sorry, but you do not know what a "battle" in family court is, your last post proves that.
+++++++
I meant a "rational, civilized battle." Neither of us are murders. He's an engineer, I'm very analytical as well. Neither of us have a temper. So our type of "battle" might not be your type of "battle", but it was still very much a BATTLE to us, for what we were used to.
And there was a time I THOUGHT about hiring a hitman...LOL...probably would have if I thought I could get away with it. But, alas, calmer heads prevailed...and he wasn't worth going to jail over. :)
--------------------
The Gov cannot give anything to anyone - that they have not first taken away from someone else.
|
icwal
enthusiast
Reged: 11/19/07
Posts: 334
|
|
Here is a list of what determines SS in PA. As you can see marital misconduct is one of them, and I know that adultry does come in to play, because of people that I know who have gone through it, but you must have proof.
ALIMONY/MAINTENANCE/SPOUSAL SUPPORT: Alimony may be awarded to either spouse, as deemed reasonable and necessary. In determining whether alimony is necessary and in determining the nature, amount, duration and manner of payment of alimony, the court shall consider all relevant factors, including: (1) The relative earnings and earning capacities of the parties. (2) The ages and the physical, mental and emotional conditions of the parties. (3) The sources of income of both parties, including, but not limited to, medical, retirement, insurance or other benefits. (4) The expectancies and inheritances of the parties. (5) The duration of the marriage. (6) The contribution by one party to the education, training or increased earning power of the other party. (7) The extent to which the earning power, expenses or financial obligations of a party will be affected by reason of serving as the custodian of a minor child. (8) The standard of living of the parties established during the marriage. (9) The relative education of the parties and the time necessary to acquire sufficient education or training to enable the party seeking alimony to find appropriate employment. (10) The relative assets and liabilities of the parties. (11) The property brought to the marriage by either party. (12) The contribution of a spouse as homemaker. (13) The relative needs of the parties. (14) The marital misconduct of either of the parties during the marriage. (15) The Federal, State and local tax ramifications of the alimony award. (16) Whether the party seeking alimony lacks sufficient property to provide for the party's reasonable needs. (17) Whether the party seeking alimony is incapable of self-support through appropriate employment. [Based on Pennsylvania Consolidated
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
