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Lovemygirls
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Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls....
      #419450 - 06/25/08 04:01 PM

I have been married for almot 5 years and we have two daugthers under 3. My wife is verbally abusive. We rarely have sex. There is no affection. There is no love. We fight just about every day. We are friends at best. We both work full time, have a house together. We have been to counseling. There hasn't been any adultery on my part. I don't know about her but I doubt it (she kissed a guy once in a bar when drunk). I am really depressed b/c I hate our relationship, and i want out b/c i don't think its going to get any better, but I feel trapped b/c I don't want to destroy our kids. My toddler doesn't do well with change and she is VERY attached to me. I don't know what to do. Please help.

I do have to mention that I drink too much on weekends (beer). It helps me escape mentally for a few.


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Annie7676
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #419540 - 06/25/08 07:50 PM

Does your wife know how you feel? Have you shared these feelings in front of the counselor when you went to counseling? If you have and she has not considered them and felt uncomfortable enough to want to change then maybe divorce is the best thing. However, if she is verbally abusive now in the marriage and has a negative reaction to a divorce then get ready for it to get very ugly and in most cases the children do get dragged in. However, maybe she is just as miserable and wants out also.

Was there a time in your marriage where you were not unhappy? If so maybe she is just as unhappy as you and somehow having two children under the age of 3 and working full time takes all the energy out of a marriage.

Are you still in counseling? If so is there any indication that she wants to work on the marriage and save it?

If she wasn't verbally abusive and was more intimate with you would that make you feel less unhappy?

The stress of life itself can really zap a marriage..

I do not have any answers but sometimes getting a divorce works and sometimes it doesn't.

I wish you luck.


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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #420211 - 06/26/08 06:38 PM

No, I haven't brought that up at the counselor's. Not intentionall for some reason it didn't come to mind during the few sessions we both attended.

If she were more intimate and less angry and critical, etc I think I would be happier.

I was about to give up on the counseling b/c i felt our issues were normal for people with two young kids and I am willing to keep trying but not if every day i am absolutely miserable and depressed. If she can stop with the verbal abuse I am willing to keep trying. I have an opportunity to rent a house from my family for cheap soon. I need to decide whether to stick it out soon.

Oh the other thing is that my wife tells me to get out of her house if i don't like it. She thinks its her house only b/c her family gave $ to help on the purchase.


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Annie7676
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #420266 - 06/26/08 07:33 PM

In fairness to your girls, yourself and your wife I would suggest you be honest with her about how you feel, she may not have a clue and you both have fallen into a terrible pattern and forgot about you and her in the marriage. Her unhappiness may be coming out with verbal abuse and lack of intimacy, you may have shut down because you are so miserable...its a recurring cycle...

I would offer up that you take her somewhere away from the children, the two of you and plan carefully what you want to say and tell her how unhappy you are and then ask her if she is happy. She may say no and then try from there..you may want to try and save your marriage first with all you got..and get it all out there and then if you still feel terrible then give up.

divorce is tough and not very amiable, you think its bad now...

only you can know if its worth saving but for the sake of your family, saving it is worth a try at least
and then if it isn't at least you tried.

good luck


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HO2
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #420363 - 06/26/08 10:29 PM

Two kids under three and both parents working full-time.....I know that many people live like that, but face it: little kids take 150% percent and in most jobs they want 100% from you as well - and then what is left for your partner? What is left for yourself? Where do you find the energy to be generous, patient, loving?

Basically noone out there is a nice and charming and sensual person when they are running low on batteries and have a million things on their plates, sometimes less money and more time is the better deal.

Without knowing any details, I would think that both of you feel overwhelmed........this is the kind of sitatution where people ask themselves 'how about my needs, how about me?' I understand that frustration leads to unhappiness, unhappiness leads to anger and depression. Still, unhappiness does not give you the right to verbally abuse your partner. Unhappiness does not give you the right to abandon your partner by knocking yourself out with alcohol and leaving your partner to take care of things - the ONE moment when you could be 'family'. This is the pattern you have to break first.

And then - as a second step - you will have to talk about what each of you can do for the other to be happier. You will have to make time for you two as a couple without chores, without kids - which is probably difficult because you do not get to spend a lot of time with your kids anyway right now - and each of you will need some alone-time.... so that your wife has some time to herself where she can breathe and relax and recover and that you have some time to yourself......'room for de-stressing'....as a young parent you often forget that it is also your responsibility to see to it that you as a parent are in the best of possible shapes and that you need to be 'selfish' at times so that you can be the best version of yourself....

If all of the above does not sound feasible right now,
then know that it is only the first few years of a kid's life that they take away a lot of your time and energy. The situation now with two helpless toddlers should not be projected into the future : the future will be different, that is for certain.

You are giving now, you are sacrificing time and energy and 'fun' to raise babies, you make that sacrifice for a few years; in retrospect the phase you are going through right now will not look like a long time .....
I would not simply run away now and make a difficult situation even worse, with even less time with your kids, with even less mutual support, with even more fighting about assets, alimony, time with kids....creating five more battlefields and even more pain for the four of you .......
Changes are needed, adjustments are needed that is correct, but there are far better options out there than divorce....


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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: HO2]
      #420845 - 06/27/08 07:10 PM

I tried to bring up the verbal abuse last night and she got defensive and said I was verbally abusive and wasn't being helpful with the children. I said forget it, I can't talk to you, you are never wrong and you are always defensive.

"Unhappiness does not give you the right to abandon your partner by knocking yourself out with alcohol and leaving your partner to take care of things"

I was waiting for someone to pick up on the little mention of alcohol use. I use it to get by during these stressful times. I don't feel I shirk my responsibilities.

Also, my wife does not trust me, she checks my email accounts. I changed the passwords b/c of that.

I will stick it out as I know this child raising has got to get easier. I know my 2.5 year old is getting easier.


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Annie7676
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #421006 - 06/28/08 05:06 AM

Its normal for people to get defensive when they feel criticized/attacked/threatened or put down. And it is almost impossible to get ones point across without that happening...and of course once you put it out there she attacks back in the psych books its called ego defense mechanisms...

dont just "stick it out" for you, her or the children. That is a doom of all marriages, both living in silent or fighting misery....my x did that for years i guess...he never fought with me, was a great provider, etc etc but had checked out long ago but what happened is he was seething underneath with disdain and anger....not a pretty thought...

why not next time when she lashes out say i hear you but what you just said really hurt me, what do you mean by that

i still think now that i am old and out of it that some marriages can be saved...i think as couples we get caught up in life, bills, jobs, triggers, hurts, etc and we hold it all in and fester......and then when the initimacy goes...thats like the kiss of death....

can you recall when you felt excited or wanted to be around your wife? she is probably still the same person, the kids, etc are just maybe blocking who she used to be from the pressures of that...

i would suggest that even if she does not continue counseling that you do for yourself to have a "trained" counselor help you with this. It would be great if both of you could go to a counselor that could help you both find your way back to your wife.

and i just have to ask...does she love you? and do you love her?

if so...then i would say its worth it to save your marriage.

again I wish you good luck.


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Debi
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #421350 - 06/29/08 08:22 AM

Can you give a brief run down of a typical day in your life (including your wifes life?) I bet people who have been through this and have learned a few things can point out places that need to change on both sides.

AS for the alcohol thing....YOU are the one who brought it up, at the end of your post, in a seperate paragraph, and then you "wondered" when someone was going to mention it. You made it the pink elephant in the room. On these forums don't ever go "oh yeah and BTW..as an after thought I should tell you " about something that "isn't important" because that totaly makes it look like it is.

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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Debi]
      #421459 - 06/29/08 06:00 PM

I know I didn't want to make a huge issue out of it b/c every counselor I go to focuses way too much on the alcohol thing. I know it isn't helping but I don't think its the only issue.

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HO2
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #421659 - 06/30/08 09:53 AM

I am sure that it is not the only issue, but take it from me: one of the top ten complaints that women have is that their husbands drink too much and that it is an enormous turn-off. I don't mean the occasional glass of wine or beer when you have dinner with friends, I mean non-social drinking....even worse when non-social drinking comes with a 'only because of you...' message attached.

As a matter of fact, if you do not need alcohol, then try to stay away from the bottle at the weekend and get into a 'father & child quality time'- routine. I remember how I adored spending time with my Dad and going for a walk & just chit-chat, while my mum was doing whatever. It is possible that this will change the quality of your marriage dramatically.

There is no better remedy than taking the request of your partner seriously. This way you will also be in a stronger position to get her to listen to your requests. It is taking and giving....either that or... justifying one's own weaknesses and bad deeds by constantly repeating the weaknesses and failings of your spouse....and I mean this with respect to both of you....it is easy to get into a 'I only do this because he/she ' routine without taking responsibility for one's choices. Both of you have the ability to make the choice to make things better...the wiser one makes the first move.


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Sunni3
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: HO2]
      #421749 - 06/30/08 12:44 PM

I agree with you 100%. You gave some seriously awesome advice. This will also help others in a similiar situation. Bravo

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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Debi]
      #421869 - 06/30/08 07:47 PM

Quote:

Can you give a brief run down of a typical day in your life (including your wifes life?)



We get up start getting ready for work and getting the kids ready for daycare. There is usually accusations about one person doing more to help get the kids ready or fighting over who got more sleep. We stress out until we get the kids out of the house to daycare. We both work 8 hours, one of us picks the kids up. (If I get home late b/c of work or getting a haircut I get accussed of being a liar as to where i've been) We get home and feed the kids, give them baths, get them to bed and then start dinner about 8pm. We eat and then go to bed. We eat dinner in front of the tv. Usually i get annoyed b/c it takes her so long to get to bed after we eat. She usually comes to bed 30 mins after me. In bed, we are both so tired, we don't talk much. She usually asks me for a backrub, which i give most of the time. If I ask for sex, she always says no.


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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: HO2]
      #421873 - 06/30/08 07:53 PM

Quote:

I am sure that it is not the only issue, but take it from me: one of the top ten complaints that women have is that their husbands drink too much and that it is an enormous turn-off. I don't mean the occasional glass of wine or beer when you have dinner with friends, I mean non-social drinking....even worse when non-social drinking comes with a 'only because of you...' message attached.

As a matter of fact, if you do not need alcohol, then try to stay away from the bottle at the weekend and get into a 'father & child quality time'- routine. I remember how I adored spending time with my Dad and going for a walk & just chit-chat, while my mum was doing whatever. It is possible that this will change the quality of your marriage dramatically.

There is no better remedy than taking the request of your partner seriously. This way you will also be in a stronger position to get her to listen to your requests. It is taking and giving....either that or... justifying one's own weaknesses and bad deeds by constantly repeating the weaknesses and failings of your spouse....and I mean this with respect to both of you....it is easy to get into a 'I only do this because he/she ' routine without taking responsibility for one's choices. Both of you have the ability to make the choice to make things better...the wiser one makes the first move.




I have made the choice to give up alcohol for me and my family.

I am very involved in my children's lives. I do things alot with them, but I'll do even more if I'm not hungover.

As for the rest of your reply-i'm not sure what you mean by the requests part.


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finz
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #421936 - 07/01/08 01:51 AM

When my kids were in grammar school, they had a course called Second Step to teach them how to "fight fair" As goofy as it sounds, I learned a lot from it.

The first rule of fair fighting is .....use "I" statements, like "I feel like I am always being criticized" "I feel like nothing I do is good enough" Do you see how that is less confrontational than "You are verbally abusive" ?

The second rule is do not use the words never and always. Saying "I know how hard it is to work full time and take care of two little girls, but I miss date night, I miss the great sex we had that got us those two girls" is much more likely, if not to get sex that night at least to get the communication going than, "We never have sex anymore" and "You always shut me down when I'm trying to be romantic"

It's worth a shot........good luck !


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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: finz]
      #422907 - 07/02/08 07:51 PM

Ok, i can try that.

One question: How do you know if you just don't like each other? Or if its just the rest of the detractors/distractors/etc causing you to think you don't like the person?


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Annie7676
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Good Question [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #422947 - 07/03/08 05:33 AM

Thats a good question...the distrations/and built up tensions may cause the dislike...when people are angry with one another and hold it in and act out, e.g., drinking, verbal abuse, etc..that is usually a sign...it can cloud ones whole life...we start reacting from our hunkering down protect ourselves point and begin to develop terrible patterns of behavior.

and once the intimacy goes then its really hard to hang on

maybe if you will stop the drinking, continue to go to counseling get all the issues out no matter how painful then it will help but she will need to work with you


do you remember a tme where you liked our wife?


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Lovemygirls
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Re: Good Question [Re: Annie7676]
      #422960 - 07/03/08 07:02 AM

I'm going to try stopping the drinking. Haven't had anything to drink in 5 days. Yes, I can remember a time when I liked her. I remember feeling very in love with her on our wedding day. I also remember being very in love with her during the early months of our relationship.

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Annie7676
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Re: Good Question [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #422966 - 07/03/08 07:24 AM

Well maybe the person you loved is still in there - just as miserable as you....if you can both reach out to each other and find your way back maybe you can work out the marriage.

I was with my x for almost 30 yrs...jobs, kids, etc pushed us apart and then the intimacy goes...he is a nice guy and we both dealt with it in our different ways...and when this happens we usually arent consciously aware of it.

If both of you want to save your marriage and make a great life for you and your wife and the kids, then again counseling and facing what has happened may help. taking care of kids and working can really drain the time you have left as a couple...couples need to make that time for each other....

i wish you luck...divorce is very hard and can get very ugly and then after all that...the grass on the other side of the fence may not be greener after all....

divorce is easy to initiate but the train ride is awful...and life may never be the same....

again good luck


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Debi
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #423498 - 07/04/08 10:18 AM

We get up start getting ready for work and getting the kids ready for daycare. There is usually accusations about one person doing more to help get the kids ready or fighting over who got more sleep. We stress out until we get the kids out of the house to daycare. We both work 8 hours, one of us picks the kids up. (If I get home late b/c of work or getting a haircut I get accussed of being a liar as to where i've been) We get home and feed the kids, give them baths, get them to bed and then start dinner about 8pm. We eat and then go to bed. We eat dinner in front of the tv. Usually i get annoyed b/c it takes her so long to get to bed after we eat. She usually comes to bed 30 mins after me. In bed, we are both so tired, we don't talk much. She usually asks me for a backrub, which i give most of the time. If I ask for sex, she always says no.


Okay, here are some minor suggestions from a mother of 4 (3 of which were born one right after the other). Take turns being the one to get the most sleep. For a 3 day period you be the one to get up during the night and she gets to sleep, then switch. The one who gets to sleep through the night gets the kids ready the next morning. Get things ready the night before. Clothes, diapers and anything they need for daycare laid out where ever you get them ready. It will go much faster and be less stressful. If they eat breakfast before daycare get as much of that ready the night before as possible. Cereal and bowls and spoons on the table, or bread and plates by the toaster. Anything to make it easier when you aren't as tired and are better capeable of thinking. (mornings are personally worse for me)

After work, does she know when you are going to do something before coming home? The accusations are coming from her being insecure about the state of your relationship just like you are. Why are you not eating dinner WITH the kids? Take turns making dinner for the family while the other watches the kids and all of you eat together. You'll be amazed at how much more pleasant it is. Then take turns doing dishes while the other gives baths. You'll get done at roughly the same time and can put the kids to sleep together.

Now, as for the backrubs vs sex. She is asking you for intimacy and you are providing it. That's great. It would be so much easier to get her into the sex mood if you start by asking her to scratch your back or do something that doesn't start out as "sex". Offer compliments while she's doing it, tell her it feels good or that you like the way she touches you. You may be surprised by how it warms up into something more.

Seriously, if you want the marriage to last you'll have to work as a team. That will require both of you cooperating, but it can't hurt to make these suggestions. If she refuses then maybe it's over for her too, but at least you'll know you've tried.

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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Debi]
      #423994 - 07/06/08 12:54 PM

Those are some very good suggestions. We are going to have daycare give them a snack later in the day b/c when we pick them up they are starving. But the dinner together does sound good. We do it sometimes and always enjoy it but...anyway, she is now doing water aerobics with one of her girlfriends about 3 days a week at 5:30pm. So that'll make it hard.

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finz
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #426241 - 07/11/08 03:29 AM

Quote:



One question: How do you know if you just don't like each other? Or if its just the rest of the detractors/distractors/etc causing you to think you don't like the person?





Is your best case scenario that you can get that "lovin' feeling" back ? Then there is hope.

If you best case scenario is tolerating each other's presence until the girls reach college (my current plan) or having a civil divorce and finding happiness elsewhere, then it's most likely too late.


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Lovemygirls
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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: finz]
      #426262 - 07/11/08 07:26 AM

I think that "lovin" feelin is too far gone. Last night we were fighting about the temperature in the bedroom and she got pissed about the fan being on b/c it bothered her sinuses and allergies (very common fight). So i got fed up and refused to turn the fan down and she lost her temper and spit on me. Nice huh. Should you stay with someone who spits on you? Oh and there was the verbal abuse going too--i hate you---why don't you lose some weight so you wouldn't be so hot. you're retarded, idiot. get out of my house, i'll get custody. pack a bag...blah blah......

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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #427454 - 07/15/08 01:03 AM

I'm trying to not laugh, but good Lord....she spit on you ? Is she 7 ?????

I know that this is a very personal decision that only you can make, but, it sounds like there is no respect there at all. Although divorce will be hard on your kids, sometimes you can do more damage by staying. You don't want them to grow up thinking this is what marraige is supposed to be. Your wife will obviously still have influence on them, but when they are with you, you will be able to teach them "this is the way we coomunicate in this house." Maybe someday, they will get to see you in a loving relationship with a new SO

Good luck


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Re: Afraid of what divorce will do to my girls.... [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #427779 - 07/15/08 06:57 PM

Don't agree with the spitting - but come on, she had a valid point about the fan (I have the same problem). We solved it by buying a fan with an extra slow setting so that we are both happy.

Sounds like you both could use some family counseling - believe me, it would be cheaper and easier to try than going through a divorce and possible custody problems.


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Lovemygirls
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update [Re: Buckeye]
      #435584 - 08/03/08 10:51 AM

Doesn't matter what the disagreement was about, no excuse for acting like that. Regarding the family counseling, we have but she doesn't seem to take it seriously, don't make an effort to make appointments, etc. The counselor who sees us both individually also said he thought she was avoiding counseling. Anyway.

So for the update. Things were good for a few days. I think it was around the time that we had sex once or twice. Then it was back to the same old same old. For example, we got into a fight and I mentioned moving out and she said "grow a pair and leave". And yesterday she made a comment about me watching stupid 80s B movies and I said that was watching a show on the National Geographic Channel about Green Berets in Afghanistan. She said "you don't even know where Afghanistan is". Then this am, she has a cold and she's still sleeping (its almost noon). And i tried to get her up and she said "be a man and take care of your own kids for a while". Real nice huh? There is more, but its always talking down to me and flipping out on me and losing her temper. I have an opportunity to rent one of my family's properties that just became available. I've been thinking about it for a long time. I hate the fact that a family could be broken up. Its really saddening. Both of our parents are still together and I just feel like we owe it to our kids to stay together no matter how miserable we are. Then some days I think that time is precious and if we just keep staying together thinking things are going to get better as the kids get a little older and it isn't so hectic that half our life will be over and we'll both be miserable and nothing will get better. I mean, I know that stress brings out the worst in people but we just despise each other half the time. I feel like we just aren't right for each other.

Before Kathleen found out she was pregnant with our first child, she said she was going to leave me. We were sleeping in separate rooms and everything. I tried to talk to her about why she wanted to leave and asked her to go to counseling and she refused and wouldn't change her mind. It wasn't until she found out about being pregnant that decided to stick around.

I just don't know what to do. I can't stand the thought of not seeing my girls every day and what I think it will do to my oldest. I feel like its going to devastate her. I am so lost I don't want to make a bad decision.


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Re: update [Re: Lovemygirls]
      #436092 - 08/05/08 07:02 AM

I don't mean to add to your stress but you say you're concerned about how a split will affect your children. How do you think growing up in a home where mom and dad despise one another will affect them? You may be making a huge effort to keep this stuff from the kids but they can sense the tension. I heard it said just this past weekend, "It's better kids come from a broken home then grow up in one."

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Lovemygirls
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Re: update [Re: MaritimeGuy]
      #602514 - 11/22/09 09:41 AM

Its been a while since I have been here. I guess I've just been dealing. We are still in counseling and are stable. I'm back to drinking on weekends.

The verbal abuse is no longer there. We are civil to one another. We do have friendship we talk to each other.

However, I can't get over the feeling that I am just not in love with her. Its a very oppressing feeling. I feel trapped as I don't want to give up the house and family, but I just can't get past it.

I don't feel attracted to her. I look at her and I don't feel love. I am in fact, at times, repulsed by her. I know this is bad, but being brutually honest.

I have many dreams about being in a relationship where I feel in love.

I just don't know.

Regarding the drinking, she isn't supportive of it. I told her this week that i was trying to stop drinking again and later that day she told me some friends were having a party and we should get a sitter and go (drinking).

I just don't know. There is also the issue of her habits that drive me nuts.

Its just crushing to me that neither one of us would be able to afford the house alone so we'd both end up in aparmtents. My daughters are 2 and 3. I feel like they'd be hurt badly. And I would hurt as I want to see them every day.

Is there any custody arrangment that allows the parents to see the kids daily? I can't imagine only seeing them like every 3 days or something like that.

I just feel like it isn't fair to either of us for me to stay with someone I don't feel like I love just for the kids. Help!!


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