rogerisright
recently joined
Reged: 02/17/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Oregon
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The family law reform movement, i.e. father's rights, has tried to make the Parenting Act more "fair" and less "biased." But the only ones ever complaining were men, who because of the gender-neutral language of the Parenting Act, thought they had an equal shot at getting custody of their children. But the Parenting Act, with all its good intentions, can't change the basic nature of men and women.
The Parenting Act recognized parenting functions as important and even anticipated that men might be able to do them once in a while. It's clear to me now, fathers just aren't qualified to parent their children without intense supervision by the mothers, or some fundamental change in the nature of men that would qualify them to be custodial parents.
So, rather than continue a losing battle to reform the Parenting Act to make it more (father) friendly, I've decided that the only way to make any progress is to change the way fathers function, both before and during divorce. Everything they need to get custody of their children is right there in the Parenting Act. It's been there all along, and women have used it to the hilt for years. It's time for men to stop whining about reform, step up to the plate and show that they are just as capable of being the best parent. There's no bias in the system, just laziness and incompetence. Fathers, how can you use the existing Parenting Act to get custody of your children? Make the Parenting Act work for you. Millions of women have been happy to accept the benefits of the culture of victimization. It's almost intoxicating, being exalted, praised, and getting all the attention, but none of the blame.
ADVICE FOR MEN
Men can get these same benefits too. First, find your inner victim. Start seeing a counselor who can help you recover memories of being abused. Dig deep down into your psyche. You were abused by your parents, siblings, grandparents, teachers, coaches, family dog, cat, ferret, and now, by your spouse. Wallow in your life-long suffering. Courts love to give custody to damaged people.Discover the efficacy of pre-divorce tactics. Call 911 whenever you feel "afraid" of your spouse. Cry rape whenever she demands sex. Call your friends and family constantly and report her unrelenting abuse. You'll need their declarations in court later. Get in her face and provoke her into punching you (or just say she did; remember no evidence is required when you're the victim). Have her arrested and removed from the family home, then go get a domestic violence protection order to keep her away.Before you and your spouse separate, quit your job and go on unemployment for as long as possible. Cite job stress, nebulous medical problems, or the need to "find yourself." Then you can claim you are the "primary caretaker," assuring you can win custody over your two-job-holding wife.
Get in touch with your feminine side. Stay home all day and watch Oprah and Martha Stewart. Start talking about potpourri and decoupage. For that extra touch, start cross-dressing. Just don't take your wife's clothes. Go buy your own. No one will criticize your alternative lifestyle. Have your children start calling you "mommy." No matter what ideas your wife comes up with, or how well she does things, constantly criticize and demean her for her incompetence. Complain about how she doesn't make enough money. By the time the divorce starts, she'll be too depressed and dejected to go for custody.
Overdraw the checking account by thousands of dollars, then claim your wife is abusive and controlling when she never lets you touch the checkbook again. If you're having an affair and get caught, immediately accuse your wife of domestic violence.
Get her arrested and tossed out of the house. Then move your girlfriend in. Be sure your girlfriend uses your wife's treasured personal things and redecorates immediately. Encourage your children to start calling your live-in "mom." Go to their school and take their mother off the contact card. Tell them she is an abuser and not to let her near the children.
Go to court and get child support from your wife, based on when she was working two jobs to get the family out of the mountain of debt you helped run up. Continue to avoid employment at all costs, and spend the child support check on booze, gambling and internet auctions of collectible cabbage-patch dolls.
If your true nature does come out during this process (i.e. your intrinsic domestic violence tendencies), all is not lost. If you slap, scratch, bite, or knee your wife in the groin, use one of these sure-fire excuses to evade any consequences:"I was only defending myself from HER abuse; I'M the real victim here""She taunted me into hitting her""It didn't hurt her anyway""Lee Press-On Nails are not weapons"
Once you have obtained a protection/no-contact order against your wife, call her constantly, then report her to the police for violating the order. When you can't get red wine stains from your alcoholic binges out of the upholstery, call your wife and sweetly ask her to come over and help. After she has successfully gotten the spots out, get into an argument loud enough for the neighbors to hear, so they'll call 911 and get her arrested. When she protests that you invited her over, insist that she constantly pressures you to let her come back. Remember, you are the victim of domestic violence and can do no wrong.
And don't worry about that pesky Rule 11 or signing declarations under penalty of perjury. Blatant lying is rampant in the family courts, and never punished. Why else is it referred to as Liar's Court or the Perjury Calendar?If, after you have successfully thrown your wife out of the family home, gotten her on trumped-up domestic violence charges, and messed with her mind, she still might try to go for shared parenting. Not to worry. Ensure that shared parenting will never be allowed by sabotaging cooperation and constantly creating conflict. Oh, and be sure to blame her for it.
Even though you've spent most of the years of your marriage saying "Yes Dear" to your wife, now your stock response is No, No, No. No matter what she does, says, or wants, it's wrong. She wants more time with the children? NO. She wants to participate in their school and extracurricular activities? NO. She wants to talk to them on the telephone? NO!Be assured that accountability of the custodial parent is not part of this process.
When the children end up on drugs, pregnant or in jail by the age of 15, you still get to blame the non-custodial parent. Just repeat the mantra that if it weren't for her years of child abuse and domestic violence, the children wouldn't have turned out that way. If things get really bad, agree to sign custody over to her, but on condition that you don't have to pay child support.So, there you have it. There's absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with the Parenting Act as it exists today. You can get anything you want. You just have to know how to use it to your advantage. Reform anyone?
"When there are no victims, there are no abusers. When there are no abusers, there are no bogeymen. When there are no bogeymen, there are no politicians drumming up hysteria that only drastic government intervention can abate. Save the Victims."
reprinted with permission from http://www.realfamilylaw.com
:D [b]ADVICE FOR MEN[/b]
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Love...Trust...Forgiveness these are not feelings ....these are Choices....and they are verbs!
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Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
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scarcasm abounds...unfortunetely it's ALL true
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javajunkiee
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 3153
Loc: SC
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In situations where its true, the women are an embarassment to my gender.
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Marriage doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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About 2/3 of it applies to my ex.
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Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
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[quote]In situations where its true, the women are an embarassment to my gender. [/quote]
Almost all the situations are true however. The easiest way to see it are the various charges women are charged with when committing crimminal acts and THRN the sentence they receive. God, I hate horny judges when they decide case law.
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javajunkiee
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 3153
Loc: SC
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I can understand, wait, no, I can identify with how pissed off you are over your particular situation Relayer. I also agree that there are definitely some ridiculous, spoiled women out there with entitlement issues. If you would humor me though, would you answer a question for me?
Is there any case where a woman claims abuse that you might actually believe? I'm not being a smart ass here; I'm legitimately asking the question. I have seen you post responses where you express an understanding and compassion for a situation, but when it comes to abuse situations you seem predisposed to NOT believe it occurred. Of course, I'm coming from my own experiences which cause me to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
So what's the deal? What makes you think a claim is bogus as opposed to truthful? FTR, I'm not trying to convert your way of thinking, I'm merely trying to understand a view that is the polar opposite of my own.
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Marriage doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
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Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
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[quote]
Is there any case where a woman claims abuse that you might actually believe? I'm not being a smart ass here; I'm legitimately asking the question. I have seen you post responses where you express an understanding and compassion for a situation, but when it comes to abuse situations you seem predisposed to NOT believe it occurred. Of course, I'm coming from my own experiences which cause me to give someone the benefit of the doubt.
So what's the deal? What makes you think a claim is bogus as opposed to truthful? FTR, I'm not trying to convert your way of thinking, I'm merely trying to understand a view that is the polar opposite of my own. [/quote]
I think it happens but I don't think it happens in the frequency reported here. I also do not think verbal abuse is abuse. No one is holding you there. I think it is used way too often as false ammo in divorce proceedings. And then, what consitutes abuse? I myself was a victim of domestic violence in a horrible manner but when someone starts a conversation about not getting CS or that they are in disagreement about parenting time and 3 post later, all of a sudden, the husband abused her, I simply dont believe it happened. Not one bit. I am quite sure they had an OP issued but did so on the advice of their lawyer or friend who did it.
I would say a majority of claims, on and off the board, are false.
And a good number of times, the poster could very well have started it herself and I believe a person has a right to defend themselves. However, the law does not see it that way. If you are a man, and your spouse has a scratch on her, you are going to jail. I took many beatings knowing that and didn't fight back at all and all I have to show from that are a couple of deep scars on my face..the cops saw the cuts and blood on the wall and gave me a dometic violence brochure not one but twice..I finally called them after the 30th beating or so
yet....
I was subject to an OP and loss of my kids for 6 months because I said "fnck" to my ex from a hospital bed during an arugement.
I also know FIRST HAND if you are male, the county domestic abuse force will do little or nothing to help you.
If someone really had the crap beat out of them, it would be the first order of business. And I think OP's for verbal stuff is totally ridiculous and meant to enrich the legal profession
As a victim myself, I can tell if it really happened or not.
And the excuse of "I didn't want to put all my dirty laundry etc" out there right away is a BS excuse and DV would be the first order of business.
I can tell which are real and which aren't, simply by the tone of the writing. And of course, women NEVER start it or even do it to men.
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GO CUBBIES!!!!
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rogerisright
recently joined
Reged: 02/17/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Oregon
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In short relayer ...like the little boy no one believed who hollered wolf all the time ...the answer is no ...not very many of them...if any. Too bad women have used it and abused the stystem too many times and now they will slowly be losing it as the rest of the well meaning world wakes up ....
Just for fun though here is a transacript of an emergency call to an abuse hotline by one of the 40% of all abuse claim victims ...the man
Here is an example of a phone call by a man to a domestic violence hotline after he has just been assaulted by his wife ....let's call her "large and in charge marge"..."built like a barge with the sting of a depth charge" the federal government's own statistics showing nearly 40 per cent of domestic violence victims are men
Realistically, asserting domestic violence claims against women is not an effective tactic for men.
Everyone knows that men can't possibly be victims of domestic violence.
If he claims he is a victim, he's lying.
If he has injuries, he got them from the woman defending herself against his abuse.
If he's dead, she was a Battered Woman who killed him in self-defense (even with 52 stab wounds in the back).
If you are a man who thinks he is a victim of domestic violence, call the local domestic violence hotline, and tell them what has happened to you. The conversation should go something like this:
HOTLINE: Domestic violence hotline, can I help you?
MAN: Um, I think I might need some help.
HOTLINE: What kind of help?
MAN: Well, my wife gets really angry and screams at me, and sometimes she hits me.
HOTLINE: Do you have any proof of that?
MAN: Well, no, she does it when no one else is around. She also threatens me that if I ever tell anyone, she'll take our son and leave, and tell the police I've been beating her up and sexually abusing him.
HOTLINE: What did you do to make her so angry at you?
MAN: Nothing. She's constantly critical of everything I do. She's extremely jealous, calling me all day checking up on me. She accuses me of having an affair whenever I even talk to some other woman. And she won't let me spend hardly any time with our son. She says I'm not good enough taking care of him.
HOTLINE: You must have done something to make her mad enough to hit you, that is, if she really did hit you.
MAN: The last time it happened I told her I wanted a divorce, and I wanted to have equal custody of our son. She screamed and swore at me, pushed me against the kitchen counter then started pounding on my chest.
HOTLINE: Well it didn't hurt you or anything.
MAN: I don't know, I was just trying to get away.
HOTLINE: Did you grab her or push her away?
MAN: I yelled at her to stop it. She got madder and madder, and just kept hitting me. Finally I grabbed her arms to get her to stop, pushed her back and ran out of the room.
HOTLINE: So you did assault her. Did she call 911?
MAN: No, she ran after me, grabbed my arm and hit me in the face with a meat tenderizer. I have a big red bumpy square mark on my right cheek. I told the guys at work I ran into a heating coil while I was working on the furnace.
HOTLINE: Well, we can definitely help you. Number one, don't report any of this to the police. It will only inflame your wife and escalate the situation. Two, you need to move out, so your wife can have some personal space without you around. Obviously, your presence makes her angry and she can't be a good mother when you're creating such a hostile environment. Three, you need to go to counseling to control your inappropriate behavior. Violence against women is always wrong, and you have no right to touch her ever, for any reason. We have several batterers' programs in this area that will know just how to deal with your controlling, abusive, violent nature. Men like you are always in denial, always blaming the woman for your actions. You need to be held accountable for your abuse of her. I just hope that you have not permanently damaged your son by demonstrating that violence is how to get your way.
MAN: Batterers' treatment? I've never battered her. She's the one who batters me.
HOTLINE: Don't get uppity with me, buster. Guys like you get their way through brute force and intimidation. I'm not going to let you abuse me too. Now take down this number and get yourself into treatment before you hurt or kill more innocent women and children. 206-555-6666. Ask for the intake counselor and have your VISA or MasterCard ready.
MAN: OK, but shouldn't she go to some kind of treatment too?
HOTLINE: Of course, we have battered women's victim counseling, support groups, free housing, legal help, interior design services, discount car insurance, and dart boards with their husband's pictures on them available for our women clients here at the coven, er, shelter.
MAN: OK, thanks for the help, I guess.
HOTLINE: Thanks for calling the Domestic Violence Hotline. [Click].
Content for this page has been provided by your friendly local taxpayer-funded domestic violence advocates. More funding is always needed to help innocent abused women. Contact your state and federal lawmakers and demand increased appropriations for these programs.
Violence Against Women: When Billions is Not Enough.
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Love...Trust...Forgiveness these are not feelings ....these are Choices....and they are verbs!
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rogerisright
recently joined
Reged: 02/17/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Oregon
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October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. Most articles and public service announcements this month focus exclusively on female victims, while at the same time stereotyping all abusers as male. Federal laws such as the Violence Against Women Act codify gender discrimination and gender profiling. Women's advocates claim that virtually all domestic violence victims are women, therefore discrimination is justified. They repeat often-cited claims such as "the number one reason women age 16 to 40 end up in the emergency room is violence," "95 per cent of domestic violence is committed by men," and "the chance of being victimized by an intimate partner is 10 times greater for a woman than a man."
Yet these "statistics" cannot be verified and are repeatedly contradicted by both government and private studies. A Centers for Disease Control (CDC) report found the leading causes of women's injury-related emergency room visits are accidental falls, motor vehicle accidents, and accidental cuts. Homicide or injury purposely inflicted by others (including strangers and intimates), was the least likely cause, exceeded even by injuries due to animal bites and venomous plants. (National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey: 1992 Emergency Department Summary).
Proof that women are not the only victims of domestic violence appears in the 1998 Justice Department report "Intimate Partner Violence." Of 1830 domestic violence murders, 510, or almost 1/3, were men. The study also indicated that males are 13 per cent less likely to report being a victim of intimate violence than females. Another 1998 Justice Department report, "Violence Against Women Survey," found that while 1,309,061 women were assaulted by an intimate partner in the prior year, 834,732 men were victims of domestic violence, 39 per cent of the total.
Extensive research concludes that men and women are almost equally likely to initiate domestic violence (e.g. Strauss and Gelles, 1975 and 1985). While women may be more severely injured when domestic violence escalates, they can and do commit serious crimes of violence against men. Women's advocates continually downplay the existence of female violence. This obscures the fact that men are at risk of being victimized, and leaves them less prepared for the potential for violence against them.
Should an important public policy debate be about which sex is the most important victim? Should a female victim be more important than a male victim? Was Melanie Edwards (murdered by her husband in a divorce/custody battle) more important than Chuck Leonard (murdered by his wife in a divorce/custody battle)? Was Gertrudes Lamson (shot and killed by her husband) more important than Donyea Jones (doused with gasoline, set afire, and burned to death by his wife)?
Many male victims are ignored or ridiculed by a system that seems to recognize only female victims. When women are the abusers, they are more often than not given a pass. Recent cases I have personal experience with involve men who have been hit, punched, gouged, choked, and threatened with weapons by their spouses. Despite reports to police, none of the women were charged with crimes.
These local cases, and their numerous national counterparts, demonstrate that domestic violence is not the sole province of male perpetrators and female victims. Yet we are constantly told that women are the only ones at risk. Had there been more education about the potential for violence by both men and women, men like Chuck Leonard and Donyea Jones may have been able to take precautions and avoid a deadly risk.
Myths and distortions about male and female violence have no place in the debate about stopping domestic violence. Despite a continual barrage of reports about how epidemic domestic violence has become, the truth is that most men and women are law-abiding citizens, loving spouses and caring parents. The 1998 Intimate Partner Violence report indicates steep declines in domestic violence against both men and women. The Justice Department numbers cited above indicate that only 1.3 per cent of women (and .9 per cent of men) are actually victimized each year. Yet domestic violence advocates promote the myth that American women live in constant terror of violence from husbands or boyfriends. It is simply irresponsible to falsely demonize fully 50 per cent of the population, further fanning the flames of gender warfare.
During Domestic Violence Awareness Month, let's not let the zeal to protect one class of victims perpetuate a bias that unfairly stereotypes an entire gender. It is noble and well-meaning to advocate for female victims. Yet denying the existence of male victims of female violence demeans and ignores these victims, puts them at further risk, and reduces the likelihood that female abusers will be held accountable for their crimes.
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Love...Trust...Forgiveness these are not feelings ....these are Choices....and they are verbs!
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Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
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[quote]In short relayer ...like the little boy no one believed who hollered wolf all the time ...the answer is no ...not very many of them...if any. Too bad women have used it and abused the stystem too many times and now they will slowly be losing it as the rest of the well meaning world wakes up ....
Just for fun though here is a transacript of an emergency call to an abuse hotline by one of the 40% of all abuse claim victims ...the man
Here is an example of a phone call by a man to a domestic violence hotline after he has just been assaulted by his wife ....let's call her "large and in charge marge"..."built like a barge with the sting of a depth charge" the federal government's own statistics showing nearly 40 per cent of domestic violence victims are men
Realistically, asserting domestic violence claims against women is not an effective tactic for men.
Everyone knows that men can't possibly be victims of domestic violence.
If he claims he is a victim, he's lying.
If he has injuries, he got them from the woman defending herself against his abuse.
If he's dead, she was a Battered Woman who killed him in self-defense (even with 52 stab wounds in the back).
If you are a man who thinks he is a victim of domestic violence, call the local domestic violence hotline, and tell them what has happened to you. The conversation should go something like this:
HOTLINE: Domestic violence hotline, can I help you?
MAN: Um, I think I might need some help.
HOTLINE: What kind of help?
MAN: Well, my wife gets really angry and screams at me, and sometimes she hits me.
HOTLINE: Do you have any proof of that?
MAN: Well, no, she does it when no one else is around. She also threatens me that if I ever tell anyone, she'll take our son and leave, and tell the police I've been beating her up and sexually abusing him.
HOTLINE: What did you do to make her so angry at you?
MAN: Nothing. She's constantly critical of everything I do. She's extremely jealous, calling me all day checking up on me. She accuses me of having an affair whenever I even talk to some other woman. And she won't let me spend hardly any time with our son. She says I'm not good enough taking care of him.
HOTLINE: You must have done something to make her mad enough to hit you, that is, if she really did hit you.
MAN: The last time it happened I told her I wanted a divorce, and I wanted to have equal custody of our son. She screamed and swore at me, pushed me against the kitchen counter then started pounding on my chest.
HOTLINE: Well it didn't hurt you or anything.
MAN: I don't know, I was just trying to get away.
HOTLINE: Did you grab her or push her away?
MAN: I yelled at her to stop it. She got madder and madder, and just kept hitting me. Finally I grabbed her arms to get her to stop, pushed her back and ran out of the room.
HOTLINE: So you did assault her. Did she call 911?
MAN: No, she ran after me, grabbed my arm and hit me in the face with a meat tenderizer. I have a big red bumpy square mark on my right cheek. I told the guys at work I ran into a heating coil while I was working on the furnace.
HOTLINE: Well, we can definitely help you. Number one, don't report any of this to the police. It will only inflame your wife and escalate the situation. Two, you need to move out, so your wife can have some personal space without you around. Obviously, your presence makes her angry and she can't be a good mother when you're creating such a hostile environment. Three, you need to go to counseling to control your inappropriate behavior. Violence against women is always wrong, and you have no right to touch her ever, for any reason. We have several batterers' programs in this area that will know just how to deal with your controlling, abusive, violent nature. Men like you are always in denial, always blaming the woman for your actions. You need to be held accountable for your abuse of her. I just hope that you have not permanently damaged your son by demonstrating that violence is how to get your way.
MAN: Batterers' treatment? I've never battered her. She's the one who batters me.
HOTLINE: Don't get uppity with me, buster. Guys like you get their way through brute force and intimidation. I'm not going to let you abuse me too. Now take down this number and get yourself into treatment before you hurt or kill more innocent women and children. 206-555-6666. Ask for the intake counselor and have your VISA or MasterCard ready.
MAN: OK, but shouldn't she go to some kind of treatment too?
HOTLINE: Of course, we have battered women's victim counseling, support groups, free housing, legal help, interior design services, discount car insurance, and dart boards with their husband's pictures on them available for our women clients here at the coven, er, shelter.
MAN: OK, thanks for the help, I guess.
HOTLINE: Thanks for calling the Domestic Violence Hotline. [Click].
Content for this page has been provided by your friendly local taxpayer-funded domestic violence advocates. More funding is always needed to help innocent abused women. Contact your state and federal lawmakers and demand increased appropriations for these programs.
Violence Against Women: When Billions is Not Enough. [/quote]
You are speaking to the chior
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Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
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I have a huge scar around my eyebrow and one on my right cheek from when she cold cocked me. Too large of a dimond. I was confined to a bed and hooked up to a IV when she did it. There were splatters of blood on the wall and on my fave and shirt. My daughter called 911. And all I got like I said was a brocure (and police reports that were ignored by the judge)
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GO CUBBIES!!!!
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javajunkiee
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 3153
Loc: SC
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[quote]I think it happens but I don't think it happens in the frequency reported here. I also do not think verbal abuse is abuse. No one is holding you there. I think it is used way too often as false ammo in divorce proceedings.
---I agree that verbal abuse is used way too often in divorce. I do think that consistent, prolonged verbal abuse, which I define as derogatory or degrading comments designed to strip someone down, (think drill sargeant) is abusive. My personal belief is that when that behavior starts to appear, the recipient of that abuse should be heading for the exit, so that it doesn't do long term damage. I've been subjected to this type of abuse and it does do a number on the psyche, but I will never, EVER allow myself to be subjected to that again. I'll never NEED to, because I've made sure I'm a self-sufficient, overly-independent, "hard ass", who won't be afraid to leave someone who's that plain mean.
And then, what consitutes abuse? I myself was a victim of domestic violence in a horrible manner but when someone starts a conversation about not getting CS or that they are in disagreement about parenting time and 3 post later, all of a sudden, the husband abused her, I simply dont believe it happened. Not one bit. I am quite sure they had an OP issued but did so on the advice of their lawyer or friend who did it.
I would say a majority of claims, on and off the board, are false.
---So you believe that physical abuse is....rare?
And a good number of times, the poster could very well have started it herself and I believe a person has a right to defend themselves. However, the law does not see it that way. If you are a man, and your spouse has a scratch on her, you are going to jail. I took many beatings knowing that and didn't fight back at all and all I have to show from that are a couple of deep scars on my face..the cops saw the cuts and blood on the wall and gave me a dometic violence brochure not one but twice..I finally called them after the 30th beating or so
---Why did you stay through all of that? Were you concerned that pressing charges of DV against your wife, even given the fact that the police believed you, wouldn't succeed?
yet....
I was subject to an OP and loss of my kids for 6 months because I said "fnck" to my ex from a hospital bed during an arugement.
---To be subjected to that, over a swear word, when you were in a hospital bed, is ridiculous. She used that *single* incident as an excuse? I'm not saying that you gave her other incidents to base the OP on, but I'm just finding it incredible that a supposedly objective, supposedly evidence oriented system, would keep children from their father over a 4 letter word. Yes, my naivete is showing.
I also know FIRST HAND if you are male, the county domestic abuse force will do little or nothing to help you.
---Which is also ridiculous.
If someone really had the crap beat out of them, it would be the first order of business. And I think OP's for verbal stuff is totally ridiculous and meant to enrich the legal profession
As a victim myself, I can tell if it really happened or not.
And the excuse of "I didn't want to put all my dirty laundry etc" out there right away is a BS excuse and DV would be the first order of business.
---Now see, that I strongly disagree with. I do not dispute the fact that there are women (and men) out there, that when other tactics fail, pull out the "poor me, I was abused!" card. However, I also have first hand experience at being abused and to this day I will not bring this up at the beginning of any communication that actually involves the abuse. Illogical? Yes. Why? Because I'm embarassed about it. Even more so, I'm mad as hell at myself for allowing it to occur, and not fighting back and for not leaving the *very*first*second* I had an opportunity. I have spent too many years trying to stuff that experience into a little box in the back of my mind, and just whipping something THAT painful, that horrific, and that personal, out to a stranger, is incomprehensible to me. To me, any poster who freely discusses the abuse while still in the middle of it, and who isn't actively looking for an escape hatch, is questionable. If they are discussing financial concerns also during this, it doesn't automatically scream troll to me, provided there are children involved. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those posters simply because an abused mother/father who has children has to consider the financial repercussions. If there are no kids, and all they have the energy to worry about are finances rather than saving their own skin, I'm suspicious.
I can tell which are real and which aren't, simply by the tone of the writing. And of course, women NEVER start it or even do it to men.
---And of course, women start it and DO it. Call me crazy, but until both men and women step up and actively work to remove the double standards in our society there will be little change in how the legal system views and treats DV. I may be naive, or over estimating my own emotional or phsyical strength, but I find women who pull the 'weaker woman' crap to avoid the consequences for their actions to be an embarassment.
Thanks for responding to my post Relayer.
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Marriage doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
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Relayer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 03/13/07
Posts: 9506
Loc: Moorglade Mover
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[quote][quote]---So you believe that physical abuse is....rare?
Much more so that peoplem ake it out to be. A woman can beat away but a man cant defend himself
---To be subjected to that, over a swear word, when you were in a hospital bed, is ridiculous. She used that *single* incident as an excuse?
--> Yes and it's documented. I never laid a hand a her.
I'm not saying that you gave her other incidents to base the OP on, but I'm just finding it incredible that a supposedly objective, supposedly evidence oriented system, would keep children from their father over a 4 letter word. Yes, my naivete is showing.
---> thats because in no way, shape of form is it objective
I also know FIRST HAND if you are male, the county domestic abuse force will do little or nothing to help you.
---Which is also ridiculous. I tried and was refused WITH POLICE REPORT IN HAND.
If someone really had the crap beat out of them, it would be the first order of business. And I think OP's for verbal stuff is totally ridiculous and meant to enrich the legal profession
--> Nope and the funny thing is the woman before me was granted one because her husband hadnt shown up at home for 3 days and she was pissed.
As a victim myself, I can tell if it really happened or not.
And the excuse of "I didn't want to put all my dirty laundry etc" out there right away is a BS excuse and DV would be the first order of business.
---Now see, that I strongly disagree with. I do not dispute the fact that there are women (and men) out there, that when other tactics fail, pull out the "poor me, I was abused!" card. However, I also have first hand experience at being abused and to this day I will not bring this up at the beginning of any communication that actually involves the abuse. Illogical? Yes. Why? Because I'm embarassed about it. Even more so, I'm mad as hell at myself for allowing it to occur, and not fighting back and for not leaving the *very*first*second* I had an opportunity. I have spent too many years trying to stuff that experience into a little box in the back of my mind, and just whipping something THAT painful, that horrific, and that personal, out to a stranger, is incomprehensible to me. To me, any poster who freely discusses the abuse while still in the middle of it, and who isn't actively looking for an escape hatch, is questionable. If they are discussing financial concerns also during this, it doesn't automatically scream troll to me, provided there are children involved. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those posters simply because an abused mother/father who has children has to consider the financial repercussions. If there are no kids, and all they have the energy to worry about are finances rather than saving their own skin, I'm suspicious.
---> woman play victim too much to not mention it out of the gate.
I can tell which are real and which aren't, simply by the tone of the writing. And of course, women NEVER start it or even do it to men.
---And of course, women start it and DO it. Call me crazy, but until both men and women step up and actively work to remove the double standards in our society there will be little change in how the legal system views and treats DV. I may be naive, or over estimating my own emotional or phsyical strength, but I find women who pull the 'weaker woman' crap to avoid the consequences for their actions to be an embarassment.
--> It wont changebecause men dont have the ability to play victim like men do. When a woman can shoot her husband multiple times in the back with no evidence of abuse and spend a couple of months in jail and another couple in a mental facility, they can get away with anything. Men cant turn the tears on like women.
Thanks for responding to my post Relayer. [/quote]
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GO CUBBIES!!!!
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javajunkiee
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/01/08
Posts: 3153
Loc: SC
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I can appreciate that you feel strongly about this, and as I said before its really not my intent to convert your way of thinking. We could go on and on about this subject and never agree to the others view, lol. I will say just one last thing and let you be.
'woman play victim too much to not mention it out of the gate.'
Generalizations are dangerous. The one above is about as accurate as my saying that men are predisposed to being violent abusive brutes and are all guilty of smacking their wives around. Neither of us would be right.
--java
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Marriage doesn't come with a money-back guarantee.
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almostheaven
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
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>>>>>I think it happens but I don't think it happens in the frequency reported here.
For the umpteenth time...
The frequency something occurs here is not indicative of the frequency it occurs elsewhere. People come here because they have a problem. Those without these problems (of which DV is one) don't NEED to come here and don't. So any percentages drawn here are not accurate in any event.
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Char Fox
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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Yeah, I wouldn't overanalyze the frequency reported on a DV related board and project it anywhere else...
As someone who's been through DV counseling, I can tell you that the most common scenario in the real world is NOT the violent brute of a man hurting the innocent woman, nor the violent brute of a woman hurting an innocent man.
It's a mutually violent but somewhat limited situation. They argue, they both escalate, one of them pokes in the chest, the other shoves back. That's it. Happens very frequently; no injuries to report.
Yet it is DV and should be nipped in the bud right there. Most females I know thinks its okay to shove and slap when she gets pissed enough, but they are wrong. Most males I know know they're screwed if the touch a woman, but in their hearts think its okay to shove and kit in "self defense." So that's our current recipe for disaster that causes most DV.
If it becomes a pattern, one of them eventually starts slapping. Or one of them gets sick of being slapped and throws a punch.
etc etc etc.
I know dozens of men (and women) who have had to deal with this and there is practically never a "monster" nor an "angel" which is the biggest misconception out there.
In my situation, I got slapped about 12-15 times by my pissed off wife. Instead of turning my back and leaving I got pissed off and slapped her back, hard, once. Said "you're fvcking in hysterics; knock it off." And she did. And we both went to DV counsing, which was good for both of us.
I'm aware that there are some innocent victims out there that are in truly dire straits. Just, most the people in counseling are NOT like that, males or females.
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almostheaven
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
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>>>>>I can tell you that the most common scenario in the real world is NOT the violent brute of a man hurting the innocent woman, nor the violent brute of a woman hurting an innocent man.
It's a mutually violent but somewhat limited situation. They argue, they both escalate, one of them pokes in the chest, the other shoves back. That's it. Happens very frequently; no injuries to report.<<<<<
That's what I was going to say when I read the first part...it's usually what they call mutual combat. But one may end up injured. And TYPICALLY that would be the woman as men are typically stronger. But that doesn't mean the man is prone to violence or that he was the agressor in those kinds of cases. But the police have to look very very hard to find the truth.
IE: I watched an episode of Cops recently where they went to a DV call. The man had no injuries and claimed she hit him in the face. She had a scratch. They were GOING to arrest him BUT she actually admitted she hit him first. She got scratched in the process of him holding her off. AND his brother witnessed it. Then they were going to arrest HER, but he didn't want them to and she was pregnant and nearly ready to deliver. They ended up telling her that if it happens again they WILL arrest her even if she is pregnant, and telling him that at this stage, her hormones are raging and it's best for him to leave if it looks like things are getting out of hand again.
But they were going to arrest him first because she was the only one with marks. Had she not been honest (many people won't be if they know it keeps THEM from going to jail), and had he not had a witness (most don't since it happens in the privacy of their own home), it would have been he said/she said. And then they can only go by what they see...who has marks on them.
As for actual DV where one is the agressor, I've witnessed that a few times, been victim of it from my first ex. My second ex though, his MOTHER used to beat up his dad everytime she got drunk. He stood there and took it, never fought back. Never called the cops on her, nothing. I never called the cops either, but I did NOT stand there and take it, I left.
Which is another thing about DV, many true cases of it go unreported. My theory on why this may be in some cases is that because sometimes the victim who is REALLY abused, is so abused they're scared to call the cops. Ones who aren't scared to do so usually aren't scared because there was really no DV, nothing for them to be afraid of.
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Char Fox
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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I just stumbled on here from a verbal abuse site. Wow. What a difference in opinion!
My first response to this topic is that everyone here obviously has never read and educated themselves on true verbal and emotional abuse. Typically, society views name-calling and yelling as verbal abuse. Yes, but that's only part of it. Show me a single marriage that doesn't include yelling and name calling! EVERYbody is guilty of abuse there.
True verbal/emotional abuse is much more covert and systematic than simply one who loses her/his temper. It's likened to brainwashing and once you unlock the system and come out of the fog of an abusive relationship you can see the devistating (sometimes life-long) effects of abuse.
I doubt anyone here can say they have life-long effects from an arguement with their x.
However, if you have symptoms of Post-traumatic stress, it's very likely you were emotionally abused and you better believe the person who did that to you deserves to get the worse end of the deal in divorce!
Please, before this topic goes further and all of us end up looking foolish, read up on true verbal abuse. It's way more than what you say you think it is and it does the millions of survivors a disservice to perpetuate this ignorance.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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[quote] My first response to this topic is that everyone here obviously has never read and educated themselves on true verbal and emotional abuse. [/quote]
Well, you'd be wrong there.
You're right that verbal and emotional abuse goes beyond yelling and name calling during arguments.
You're wrong that an argument cannot have life-long effects. You're very wrong that if you exhibit symptoms of post-traumatic stress, you deserve a better deal in divorce.
And, I disagree that anyone on this thread looks foolish, though you seem a little holier-than-thou.
What you seem to support is rewarding claims of emotional abuse, based on whether one person shows PTS. However, the majority of abusive relationships are shown to be mutual upon investigation.
The person who points the finger first, or starts showing PTS, particularly after the divorce proceedings start, doesn't necessarily deserve a reward. Though, there is a significant industry/culture of victimization set up to do so. I suspect you've taken advantage of it.
What we should be striving for is a system that spots/prevents actual abuse without handing out teflon suits/get-out-of-jail-free cards to those that CLAIM abuse. Abuse sucks. False or exaggerated claims of abuse to affect divorce settlements suck. Your approach creates the latter, which is a significant problem.
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txks1151
enthusiast
Reged: 03/26/07
Posts: 210
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Yeah, the OP sounds like my ex to a damn near T.
Me and my lawyer were talking about this today while we were waiting to see the judge. When I was in for my Restraining Order hearing, 39 of 40 men got ROs.
I know SOME of them were beating their wives. HOWEVER, I'd say a good 35-40% of us were all in the early stages of divorce, no record of problems, and it was strictly a he-said she-said thing.
I feel for the REAL DV victims, male and female, but I feel more women use this as a weapon than are really being abused.
I used to be threatened "DO WHAT I WANT OR I WILL TELL THE NAVY YOU BEAT ME!!!!!!!"
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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Pointing out ignorance (and an unhealthy dose of anger, I might add) does not make one "holier than thou" and I stand by my previous statement.
Restraining orders are not simply for those who beat others. ROs can be excellent tools to provide safety and peace from a perpetrator. While I agree that some may use abuse the system to get ROs, I am simnply trying to shed light on the fact that subtle abuse has as much devistating effects as a black eye especially if endured for a long period of time.
My advice to anyone here is to 1. check into anger management. 2. get your head outta your arse and identify your true abusive self.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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Actually, pointing out perceived ignorance in others is a GREAT way to be "holier than thou." In abuse counseling, you might learn that acting superior to others is a form of emotional abuse.
"everyone here obviously has never read and educated themselves..." You have no basis for this; it's a hand waving act to hopefully convince readers that you're more educated. Try "Here's what I've learned about abuse..." as a preamble which doesn't put yourself above others.
"if you have symptoms of Post-traumatic stress, it's very likely you were emotionally abused and you better believe the person who did that to you deserves to get the worse end of the deal in divorce!" Except of course when the symptoms appear coincidentally after divorce proceedings start; then they are suspect at best. Also, not applicable when both sides have abused each other (the typical case upon investigation), regardless of who manifests more dramatic symptoms at divorce time.
"Please, before this topic goes further and all of us end up looking foolish, read up on true verbal abuse." Well, I still do agree with you that true verbal abuse goes far beyond verbal abuse in arguments; much is done outside arguments and much doesn't used even raised voices. That said, courts ignore most of that. Perhaps your issue is that subtle/long term/verbal/emotional abuse is NOT a crime. This thread was actually quite pointed to acts that ARE illegal.
If ROs were "par for the course" for both sides then you'd be valid to defend them as excellent tools to promote peace. Instead, they are sometimes used to impact the divorce settlement, essentially by characterizing the receiver as abusive and at fault.
As they function today, ROs do have a purpose to discourage threats or harassment. But they are also used to benefit safe or equally guilty "victims" in financial or custody settlements, essentially as a very powerful false allegation/pre-emptive strike. You can deny this happens, but only because you've done this, or never had it done to you.
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I_am_YesDad
member
Reged: 09/20/08
Posts: 135
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Most RO's are simply a legal tactic.
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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I live in a 50-50 no-fault state. It serves me no purpose to play legal tactics as you describe therefore I have done no such thing. I'm not arguing that the system is not abused by people with alterior motives. I'm arguing that you are doing a disservice to those in true need to bundle all RO requests together in such a way.
I am simply asking for an acknowledgement that not all who seek an RO are psycho whack jobs with alterior motives and the system is set up to protect those who are unable to protect themselves.
Holier-than-thou or not, you are still ignorant.
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ESP
member
Reged: 08/17/07
Posts: 192
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When up to 88% of restraining orders are based upon lies, it is easy to "discount them."
When the laws of "abuse" have changed so that even raising one's voice is a crime (unless it is the female), it becomes even easier to "discount them."
But, there is no 100% statistic and therefore, there are exceptions to the lies generated by the accuser to parley for a better position in a divorce situation except in foster care. There, 100% of foster parents WILL BE FALSELY ACCUSED of abuse. No exceptions.
For more on this and anything else, please see the facts in the Men's Rights forum.
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ESP (Equal Shared Parenting is best over all for the children...)
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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But you are the one ignorant to what we post on this very discussion.
Nobody, not me, not ESP, not YesDad, not even Relayer wrote that "all who seek an ROs are psycho whack jobs"
Some/many/most/88%/the majority ain't all. Those are the words specifically chosen. "Some/many" are undeniable facts if you simply look at those which are shown to be unfounded in court. "Most/88%/the majority" can be debated with statistics games but whether its 88 or 44 it's too many. That's the point.
Nobody has claimed that valid ROs are the problem; it's the false ones that are of issue.
As for whether subtle/longterm verbal is "abuse" that gets rewarded in court; well it isn't. Perhaps it should be, but courts HATE that kind of crime/case for obvious reasons; it's simply he said/she said.
To make it work, you have to put credence in one side of the he said/she said murk. If you make a court of law do that, you've created a tool that will be misused by the greedy and vengeful. Like ROs are today only worse.
And, false or exaggerated DV claims are used to impact custody in all states. More often than financial claims I believe. Except of course CS follows custody, so its both parenting and financial impact, based on potentially false allegations supported unquestioningly by some systems.
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BeckaLeigh
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/08/05
Posts: 6875
Loc: Texas
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My first response to this topic is that everyone here obviously has never read and educated themselves on true verbal and emotional abuse. Typically, society views name-calling and yelling as verbal abuse. Yes, but that's only part of it. Show me a single marriage that doesn't include yelling and name calling! EVERYbody is guilty of abuse there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I disagree with this very much. My marriage does not consist of name-calling or hollaring. A normal, happy marriage doesn't need name-calling or hollaring. Some people think this is the way to solve the problem, but it isn't. Not when you have mutual respect and trust, not to mention love. I have never hollared at DH. He has never hollared at me. We don't call one another names, or our kids.
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I tried being normal once. Worst five minutes of my life.
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote]My first response to this topic is that everyone here obviously has never read and educated themselves on true verbal and emotional abuse. Typically, society views name-calling and yelling as verbal abuse. Yes, but that's only part of it. Show me a single marriage that doesn't include yelling and name calling! EVERYbody is guilty of abuse there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I disagree with this very much. My marriage does not consist of name-calling or hollaring. A normal, happy marriage doesn't need name-calling or hollaring. Some people think this is the way to solve the problem, but it isn't. Not when you have mutual respect and trust, not to mention love. I have never hollared at DH. He has never hollared at me. We don't call one another names, or our kids. [/quote]
You're very lucky and I have to agree that my statement was an exaggeration. However, the point was that the majority of the population views yelling and name-calling as verbal abuse and has no clue that VA EA goes much further beyond all the noise. There can be EA VA with absolutely no shouting.
Terms such as crazimaking, gaslighting, truth-twisting, recreation of history, brainwahing, isolation, devaluation all occur in the abuse world without raising one's voice. These forms are extremely hard to prove and just as easy to discount leaving the victim helpless as she tries to get legal protection. I wonder how many of the 88% "false" ROs are based in prooflessness of covert abuse? Just because there is no proof doesn't mean she's lying, it just means the abuser was better at charming his way outta trouble.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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"I wonder how many of the 88% "false" ROs are based in prooflessness of covert abuse?" Some, I bet. But that's not what ROs are for (retribution/protection because someone used to isolate, devalue, twist the truth...).
Rather, ROs don't even apply until the couple are separated. As such, all VA and EA is eliminated upon separation unless improper contact is resumed. If one party subsequently harasses or threatens the other, perhaps an RO is appropriate.
But NOT because there there are claims to emotional abuse prior to the separation. Especially because ROs are then used to establish one party as unfit for custody, or in fault states, to establish a preferable financial settlement for "mental anguish."
IOW, ROs are "don't go near or don't contact" orders NOT "remain in contact but treat each other properly" orders.
If ROs are used as intended, fine. When they are not, but instead as settlement tools or retribution weapons, they cause problems.
If the system rewards you financially for filing a ROs for "recreation of history," and the system rewards you for exhibiting hazy symptoms when divorce proceedings start, what do you think some people will do? Lie and misuse the system.
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BeckaLeigh
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/08/05
Posts: 6875
Loc: Texas
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In some cases, I am sure it is because the perpetrator comes across as too charming or whatever for anyone to think they would VA or EA their spouse. But, there are also the cases where someone cries wolf, when all that is there is a poodle. We could argue this til we are all blue in the face, but it isn't going to resolve any of the issues. If we want to do something about it, we need to do something that is going to make a difference. I volunteer at a battered spouse shelter 1X a week. I also host NA meetings and sponsor rehabbing addicts. So, until you do something to make a difference, yell til you are blue in the face, but it isn't going to change anything.
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I tried being normal once. Worst five minutes of my life.
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rogerisright
recently joined
Reged: 02/17/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Oregon
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Unfortunately (for 10's of 1000's of men in the USA) RO's don't only happen when you are living apart ... they happen alot of the time when the parties are still together (most of the time) but as a result of the RO those men who had a home one minute find themselves homeless w/out any sort of due process the next ...and alot of the time they go to check into a hotel only to find that their sweet loving wife has reported all of his credit cards stolen. The good news is that when the husband is allowed under police escort to go to the home to retrieve whatever he can carry he usually tries to at least take the larger vehicle which comes in handy when he finds a spot to park it and live in it down by the river. and to backaleigh ...hey don't underestimate poodles ...they are mean! lol
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Love...Trust...Forgiveness these are not feelings ....these are Choices....and they are verbs!
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BeckaLeigh
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/08/05
Posts: 6875
Loc: Texas
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LOL. I know, been bit by a few poodles and chihuahuas in my day. As for being escorted out of your home, BTDT, when X went behind my back and filed. I never did get half of my stuff back. Oh, well. LOL
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I tried being normal once. Worst five minutes of my life.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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Another potential misuse of ROs. "I want him to move out but he wants to stay at home...solution? RO!"
A more appropriate/accurate use of ROs would be to move out to protect yourself from the abuse, and file the RO (even pre-emptively, if necessary) to prevent further abuse. Except of course, that legitimate tactic doesn't help people score assets in non-community property states.
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googledad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/31/05
Posts: 10207
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I wonder how many of the 88% "false" ROs are based in prooflessness of covert abuse? Just because there is no proof doesn't mean she's lying, it just means the abuser was better at charming his way outta trouble.
>>>>>>>>>>>> " Covert abuse " isn't grounds for a restraining order in ANY STATE . EVERY STATE requires " fear " or reasonable apprehension of bodily harm as grounds for an order of protection . Neither verbal or emotional abuse qualify .
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Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
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almostheaven
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
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I hollar at my hubby all the time. First I say it, and being 60% deaf, he says "WHAT?!", and then I hollar it. LOL
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Char Fox
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BeckaLeigh
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/08/05
Posts: 6875
Loc: Texas
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LOL, AH. Not trying to compare your H to my dog, but our pit has the same problem. I tell her to sit and she looks at me like "HUH?". So, then I have to yell at her. LOL. Wonder if that is animal abuse?
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I tried being normal once. Worst five minutes of my life.
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote
Rather, ROs don't even apply until the couple are separated. As such, all VA and EA is eliminated upon separation unless improper contact is resumed. If one party subsequently harasses or threatens the other, perhaps an RO is appropriate.
. [/quote]
That's just my point! Harassment containing all of the above ways to emotionally abuse is still harassment! Just when is it OK to text to someone 4 times in one hour that because the soccer schedule isn't working out that "You're an unfit F*ed up mother. I'm getting full custody you F*ing biotch! You're so F8cked up because your parents beat you repeatedly with belts!"
All of which is completely false! I endured texting like that for weeks - on top of threatening phone calls (once up to 12 in one 3 hour stretch) - and my lawyer AND the cops said that he didn't REALLY threaten me!
I'm sorry, but if I'M (and I emphasize the ME because I'm a very strong woman) trembling and having nightmares after that, I think it's pretty valid that I felt threatened like I never before.
yet, I'm not crying for an RO because in my 50-50 state it's only a piece of paper that means nothing. I had to protect myself from this crap another way and that was through publicly outing his behavior.
It worked, tho. He stopped. now he's financially abusing me. And when i get that to stop, I'm sure he'll find another way to abuse me and I'm sure, thanks to attitudes like your own, I'll get no legal help.
To the woman who volunteers in shelters - are you guys doing anything special for October being Domestic Abuse Awareness month ? I'm pretty sure NDV hotline has something on the schedule and I know there's a motorcycle ride to raise awareness. I'm looking at heading something in my small town to raise awareness on my own (til I'm blue in the face, ya know!?) Any ideas?
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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I'm actually pretty hardcore on both sides of the RO debate.
I think 0 ROs should be used to move people out of their homes, or to impact custody or financial settlements.
I also think all ROs are appropriate if threats or actual harassment (or worse, assault) actually exist/continue.
I don't think ROs are appropriate for claims of insults insults/emotional abuse, at least not if ROs come with the baggage they currently do (impact on custody/financial settlement).
If you choose to engage with him post-separation, then get insulted in an argument, that ain't enough for an RO. That's commonly considered "acting out" during the divorce, and shouldn't and doesn't hold much water in court.
"We're getting divorced. He called me. We talked about 11 things. Then we got into an argument and he insulted me (actually we insulted each other...typically omitted by the claimant). Give me an RO that will result in loss of custody and assets because I reported the insulting argument first." is the scenario I want the system to avoid getting embroiled in.
Instead, if you don't want to be insulted, end contact. You're an adult. You can hang up. Or not pick up. Or block phone numbers. Or not read txts. etc. If he FORCES contact by trespassing, following, etc. it's harassment, potentially worthy of an RO.
But not if you choose to engage with him then argue and feel insulted/trembly afterwards. I know it sucks but doesn't deserve the payoff that ROs currently represent.
Perhaps we need something else like "divorce RO" that can be used to keep angry/divorcing people apart without being a tool for the divorce settlement. But without it, we essentially have "criminal" ROs being used as divorce settlement/false accusation tools too often.
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote]I'm actually pretty hardcore on both sides of the RO debate.
I think 0 ROs should be used to move people out of their homes, or to impact custody or financial settlements.
I also think all ROs are appropriate if threats or actual harassment (or worse, assault) actually exist/continue.
I don't think ROs are appropriate for claims of insults insults/emotional abuse, at least not if ROs come with the baggage they currently do (impact on custody/financial settlement).
If you choose to engage with him post-separation, then get insulted in an argument, that ain't enough for an RO. That's commonly considered "acting out" during the divorce, and shouldn't and doesn't hold much water in court.
"We're getting divorced. He called me. We talked about 11 things. Then we got into an argument and he insulted me (actually we insulted each other...typically omitted by the claimant). Give me an RO that will result in loss of custody and assets because I reported the insulting argument first." is the scenario I want the system to avoid getting embroiled in.
Instead, if you don't want to be insulted, end contact. You're an adult. You can hang up. Or not pick up. Or block phone numbers. Or not read txts. etc. If he FORCES contact by trespassing, following, etc. it's harassment, potentially worthy of an RO.
But not if you choose to engage with him then argue and feel insulted/trembly afterwards. I know it sucks but doesn't deserve the payoff that ROs currently represent.
Perhaps we need something else like "divorce RO" that can be used to keep angry/divorcing people apart without being a tool for the divorce settlement. But without it, we essentially have "criminal" ROs being used as divorce settlement/false accusation tools too often. [/quote]
While I respect your opinion, you seem to make an aweful lot of assumptions regarding me. First of all, we have 4 kids ranging in age from 6 - 12. We HAVE to communicate sometimes. Secondly, I have NEVER engaged post-divorce. Yeah, I used to argue back all the time before I filed, but the abuse escalated so frighteningly that I learned real quickly how to disengage. The 12 phone calls were never answered. Neither were all the texts. He just repeatedly harasses me in these ways knowing there is nothing legally that would be done about it. The texts almost always have pertainent info that I need with insults written in between causing me to either read it, or ignore it and miss out on my kids activities or my due time with them.
Show me a way to raise these kids 50-50 with him and not be in contact and I swear, I'll buy your gas for a year!!!
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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I'm sure its not as easy as I tried to make it seem. Ex'es like yours sound like mine except I'm not worried about her being able to beat me up (though she used to try). I do worry about her next sucker punch and keep my distance accordingly. But other than that, she essentially can't have a conversation without attacking. I've become pretty good at hanging up and/or walking away.
You could limit it to text (eg email). Then keep 100% of his BS/insults and take him back to court for noncooperation/contempt until he gets sick of paying for his and your legal fees...
Still, you can't really be claiming that you want to raise kids 50/50 cooperatively with him AND have him under RO at the same time, are you?
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote]I'm sure its not as easy as I tried to make it seem. Ex'es like yours sound like mine except I'm not worried about her being able to beat me up (though she used to try). I do worry about her next sucker punch and keep my distance accordingly. But other than that, she essentially can't have a conversation without attacking. I've become pretty good at hanging up and/or walking away.
You could limit it to text (eg email). Then keep 100% of his BS/insults and take him back to court for noncooperation/contempt until he gets sick of paying for his and your legal fees...
Still, you can't really be claiming that you want to raise kids 50/50 cooperatively with him AND have him under RO at the same time, are you? [/quote]
No. I can't claim that. In my state, "unless he's beating the kids bloody" (quote from my lawyer)he will share 50/50 custody no matter what. My question is, then, how do I use the law to protect my constitutional right to live in peace and happiness!? What - because I'm divorced I can't have it both ways? Insane! There's GOTTA be something but I know after talking with dozens (I do not exaggerate - DOZENS) of survivors that plain and simple - the law won't help.
Sorry if I've come off as defensive on this thread - because I truly am defensive, but not personally against you - I'm just trying to curb the attitude that is common in society that "most women" cry abuse only to use it to gain more in the divorce.
Nope. Not always the case. Some of us don't "claim" abuse, some of us are continually victimized in spite of our intellegence, wealth, education and emotional strength. We ALL deserve much better than this.
Sorry you went through the wringer.
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almostheaven
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
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It's when you yank on their choke chain that it becomes abuse. Good thing hubby's never complained when I do that. LOL
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Char Fox
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote]It's when you yank on their choke chain that it becomes abuse. Good thing hubby's never complained when I do that. LOL [/quote]
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It almost sounds as if you're placing some blame on the victims. I do NOTHING to provoke him. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Of course, it's always hind site that helps me understand what set him off (i.e. the texting I detailed was 3 days after he had to pay off the credit card because he holds all the money). He was obviously Pissed that he could not get me to pay it (he's court ordered to do so and if I could simply divide in half the joint funds right now, I'd happily pay it!) So the texting was punishment for me since he was made to follow the rules. That's not exactly yanking his chain. I had nothing to do with it - it was all done by his lawyer - his lawyer made him follow the rules.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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Well, if you're not going to try to take the kids or money from him because he's a jerk in txt and the phone, then do this:
1. keep all the txt and email and mail so far to document your case
2. get a digital recorder and attach it to your phone. Record the convos. If you live in a two party state, tell him you will record the convos. That should be enough to shape him up right there.
3. block his txt and phone #. Or screen.
4. don't have conversations with him outside of email. Not one word. But be decent in email regardless of what he does.
5. get good at ignoring the "noise" in his email
6. let him know that each txt, letter, or phone convo will go to court to hold him in contempt for noncooperation, etc. He'll lose because of your strongly documented case and pay all legal fees.
7. if he persists or pusues you in person or forces his way into your home or whatever, he's harassing you and treat him like the criminal he is.
The law will help if you do need an RO and have proof; ROs are easy to get even when not deserved. If you deserve one and use it appropriately, go for it if necessary.
Again, not all claims are false and not all ROs are misused. Just that 1st claim holding more credence than counterclaims is a problem since mutual abuse is more common than one-sided, attaching settlement rewards to ANY claims is a problem, and err'ing on the side of "victim women/victimizing men" is a problem.
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motorboater
old hand
Reged: 03/14/08
Posts: 921
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she's talking to becka about deaf dogs. not you :-)
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almostheaven
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 07/13/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
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As per motor's response, Becka and I were sharing a joke about dogs and hubbies. Calm down hon, I've dealt with some real abuse, like being drug around by the hair of the head and having a fist stuck in my face while having my head shook and shoved in gravel. I know what it's all about, believe me.
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Char Fox
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote]she's talking to becka about deaf dogs. not you :-) [/quote]
Ha! I totally missed that one. Pretty funny!
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nolonger
enthusiast
Reged: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
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[quote]Well, if you're not going to try to take the kids or money from him because he's a jerk in txt and the phone, then do this:
1. keep all the txt and email and mail so far to document your case
2. get a digital recorder and attach it to your phone. Record the convos. If you live in a two party state, tell him you will record the convos. That should be enough to shape him up right there.
3. block his txt and phone #. Or screen.
4. don't have conversations with him outside of email. Not one word. But be decent in email regardless of what he does.
5. get good at ignoring the "noise" in his email
6. let him know that each txt, letter, or phone convo will go to court to hold him in contempt for noncooperation, etc. He'll lose because of your strongly documented case and pay all legal fees.
7. if he persists or pusues you in person or forces his way into your home or whatever, he's harassing you and treat him like the criminal he is.
The law will help if you do need an RO and have proof; ROs are easy to get even when not deserved. If you deserve one and use it appropriately, go for it if necessary.
Again, not all claims are false and not all ROs are misused. Just that 1st claim holding more credence than counterclaims is a problem since mutual abuse is more common than one-sided, attaching settlement rewards to ANY claims is a problem, and err'ing on the side of "victim women/victimizing men" is a problem. [/quote]
Great advice. That's exactly what I've done for two years. I have over 100 pages of journal entries (only 3 pages of actual provable harassment) and about 4 hours of recorded verbal abuse as well as video footage of emotional and verbal abuse. I forward every text to my email and print those out along with every abusive email. I save every abusive voice message.
In spite of all this evidence, I was advised to "hold off until we need it" so that the "divorce can be about dividing equally your assets instead of viewed as 'you're out to get him'."
It just make no sense to me. It's a 50-50 friggin' state! I just want the abuse to STOP!!!! Oh yeah, and get my 1/2 already so I can MOVE ON!
Thanks for your suggestions. You're right on!
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