Curt551
journeyman
Reged: 03/23/10
Posts: 82
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I'm at an odd place in my experience with living beyond divorce. I am more and more restless. It seems the happier more satisfied I become with life the more joy I get from driving late nights, full moons... you know the kind where moon shadows are crisp and the light nearly matchs early morning twilight... You can park on the side of the road and see deer walking the fields, watch the long shadows shift in the wind. I'm not exactly feeling frisky haha and I'm not experiencing a mid-life crisis but wanting to take in those mysteriously spiritual moments. In the middle of experiencing those moments, particularly early morning, I've been missing having someone to share that with. Don't get me wrong. I am not missing my ex. I'm missing the next person and growing more restless about finding her haha. Yet... I just want her to be with me during those intensely spiritual moments to share the beauty... that romantic moment (not sexual). I am reminded of watching the Aurora Borealis for the first time without someone to share that memory moment. Anyway, I catch myself listening intently to the spiritual side of the women I meet in everyday activity. Granted most are married and I will never cross that boundary but I can't help imagining how it would be to experience those moments with them.
I don't know if its odd to, on one hand, want some to share those mystical times together yet, on the other hand, want no other obligations or responsibilities beyond simple friendship. How do you actually experience the depth of those memory moments with someone then say "thanks... see ya" and go your own way until the opportunity to experience another moment and the mood matches. It may be several weeks before the opportunity arrives again.
Maybe I was married too long but sometimes I think I'd like to have a relationship with someone who lives across the street. We visit each other when we feel the need to for whatever reason that is then return home to our own lives without obligation yet we continue to care for one another in a uniquely special way. I think I must be getting old haha. I'm not looking for a friend with benefits... I'm looking for a friend to share those special times and avoiding the complications that occur when more than that is expected.
Anyone else go through this?
Thanks :)
Curt
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Kris10Kinn
recently joined
Reged: 03/20/10
Posts: 7
Loc: Connecticut, USA
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I've experienced it on the other end of it - being a woman looking for a relationship with someone without understanding that they do not want to be obligated in any way. More of you out there than you think and many who are very nice men who come off to women as not knowing what they want. May I ask, don't male friends share spiritual things?
One thing you need to understand is that most women are looking for security - not money, not shelter but knowing that the person they are with can be counted on to be there. And more than most men realize, we equate sex with closeness so if we have a man, we're going to want to 'seal the deal' so to speak to convey that closeness.
Perhaps you will do better with a relation for sharing these moments (any siblings or cousins nearby?) instead of looking for a female friend. Many women can walk away when a misunderstanding like the one you describe in paragraph 2 occurs, but then again, some women don't handle that well at all and you could find yourself in a bit of a mess.
I hope this helps. Good luck to you.
Kris
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Curt551
journeyman
Reged: 03/23/10
Posts: 82
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Thanks Kris,
I'm just being really honest trying to figure this out. I do want a deeper friendship with a woman but I don't want that to suddenly turn into being captured or feeling captured. I would love to have the total relationship. My experience thus far is either no interest or lets get married next week. There has to be some middle ground lol.
I think your statement about allot of men coming off to women as not knowing what they want as a valid observation. I think part of it for me isn't so much that I don't want to be obligated in "any way", its more that I don't want more read into the friendship than what is experienced in those mystical moments or have expectations formed without both parties agreeing to those expectations. I probably should have explained that a friendship to me means I already have accepted some responsibilities to provide support. I don't like the quick claim that seems to happen in relationships though.
Related to your question about guys and spiritual things. Guys can enjoy spiritual times together but it's definitely not, in my experience, the same as with a woman.
Again, it seems like all or nothing out there...
Thanks for taking the time to comment Kris, I appreciate it.
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1004SRS
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 12/11/06
Posts: 5044
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I would love what you talk about. But guys I've dated want to take care of me or think that is what I want. Nope. I can take care of myself.
I'd love to have a boyfriend to go to the movies with, go on trips with, and stuff like that.
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bacall
enthusiast
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 274
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Ah, another interesting post. I do believe that men have a spiritual side (but if you think about it, society pretty much "throws" at us that women are out looking and searching for men -- wherever they go, and men spend their time in less than "significant" relationships, always trying to avoid being "captured.") Think of all the romance movies that have ever been made. Wonder why so many of us grow up with skewed expectations!
Surprisingly,Curt, I think you may discover that many more women than you might think (particularly divorced women) probably want almost exactly what you mention. I think divorce leaves an unmistakable trace of -- I don't want to call it mistrust exactly -- but perhaps "caution" is a way better word. I can't speak for the younger women who are divorced, My guess is 1) they haven't spent so long in a relationship that less time is left on earth rather than more 2) they can still "have" a family -- those of us married a long time "had" a family that is now different 3) younger people recover from everything sooner than older people.
Saying that, I think that most sane divorced women may, indeed, want what you mention. Women are luckier in one respect than men -- they tend to be able to share moments with women friends. However, most humans need connections -- real connections -- the moments you speak of and someone to share ideas, agree and disagree about life -- all the things that make up our lives.
My guess is that if you look in the right places you will ultimately find someone to share the moments. I think the restlessness is pretty natural right now. Just like when we were teenagers, in a sense, spring time is a time that breathes back life into the most deadened of us (hopefully!).
Right now what you are experiencing is probably a longing of sorts -- but one tempered by your experiences. My guess is that you will be writing soon telling the DS board about adventures.
Restlessness is a good sign. Life is all about activity.
I liked what Kris said about women in general. I don't think that every woman wants security, however. Although I think that initially that is what divorced and maybe widowed women want, after awhile they may just want a friend and to see where it goes (if anywhere) from there.
Anyway, always interesting to read your posts. Hope you have a good week.
Take care, bacall
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Atlas
journeyman
Reged: 11/03/09
Posts: 80
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I don't exactly understand what the problem is. I mean, I've got plenty of friends who are women. As long as you're not lying to them or leading them on, everything should work out fine.
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finz
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 6453
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I think it's just a matter of patience. The relationship you describe is exactly what I want (after I am divorced.....I'm not there yet) I have a life. I would expect a future boyfriend to have a life too. I pray that my sole mate is out there, but I wouldn't want to be joined at the hip.
Just be honest with the women that you date.....that your current goal is companionship, but not totally enmeshing your lives.
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Curt551
journeyman
Reged: 03/23/10
Posts: 82
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Thank you 1004SRS, Bacall, Atlas, and Finz. for taking the time to respond.
1004SRS; where do you live? haha! Seriously, that is the sort of relationship I'd feel most comfortable in at the moment. I respect a woman who is capable of standing on her own yet is able to share spontaneousness with someone else without their automatically being obligations to one another beyond friendship. I know that one of those sorts of relationships will eventually lead to more with me but it has to be a slow steady process not 0 to 100 in 6 seconds if you know what I mean. I appreciate your comments.
Bacall; I sure enjoy your posts. I think you're pretty accurate in your observations. I didn't realize how much I would panic when I felt the press for more than friendship until it happened. I 'm ready to experience friendship, even a deeper friendship, but the fear of a constrained relationship is larger than my desire for friendship if you know what I mean.
I was very married and didn't stray. My ex did stray twice. One that we made it through and the one that ended the relationship. During the process of dealing with the first one I felt hurt initially then trapped in a situation that I didn't want to be in. I went through the girations of loving and not loving her. She would want to be next to me and I didn't want her even close to me, particularly intimately. I couldn't bring myself to end the marriage though I thought long and hard about it. During that time I felt trapped, smothered, with no way out of the situation because I believed marriage is forever. When I finally decided to turn back to the relationship I had to work through all of those feelings without much participation from her. In retrospect, I should have ended the marriage then. We managed some really good times after the affair but we were never really the same after. She couldn't understand why I would have any lingering issues when she had obviously decided to remain in the relationship. This long winded disclosure is just to provide some additional information about why I would resist things moving too fast and why the idea of being trapped in something I don't want to be in immediately presses me away. I was really surprised by how quickly people seem to lay claim to each other or simply want nothing at all. I do know that when I get to the point of considering marriage it will be love beyond fear of rejection or entrapment. It will also sort of be against my will haha.
Your observation about what I am experiencing is completely accurate, I do feel the longing to share special moments and doing so is definitely tempered by my experience. I appreciate your feedback and have always enjoyed the written conversations with you.
Atlas; You have what I want evidently. I agree with your comment about not lying. I'm not lying to anyone. Actually, I don't see the point of lying in a relationship. It just causes hardship even if some aspect of what's being questioned is difficult. Thanks for taking the time to respond :) Much appreciated.
Finz; Its good to know that there are women that want the same sort of relationship. I expect I will fall in love at some point, but I'm not wanting to lay claim or have someone lay claim on me unless its fully and completely the desire of both parties. I like the associational aspects of a relationship. Thank you for posting your comments.
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Debi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 7135
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I think what people want depends a lot on age. When I got divorced I was in my early 30's and was sure I'd get married again. I've had a couple of relationships since then (and a baby who is now 2) and at 41my kids are my main focus.
I'd love to have someone to go to dinner and do stuff with or have adult conversations with but a live in type relationship isn't on my mind at this point. They last person I dated decided after almost 2 months that he couldn't handle me having a 2 yo. It had never crossed my mind at that point to introduce him to my kids. I was really really hurt and I didn't really understand it. It wasn't like I "loved" him. It wasn't until someone pointed out that it wasn't him that I was so sad about but the fact that I had lost the one thing in my life that my kids weren't involved in.
I think that's what it is for me at this point. Having a friendship or even a little more that doesn't involve the kids and belongs only to me. I can definitely understand not wanting to be smothered.......or maybe I can't since it's been so long since I felt that way. LOL
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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Curt551
journeyman
Reged: 03/23/10
Posts: 82
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Hi Debi :),
Introduction to kids could be an entire forum topic I think. The when, the where, the which all could be awkward depending on the situation. You brought up another point that I found interesting in my own analysis of things as well... that is how the heart travels ahead of the mind where you become attached to someone allot quicker in terms of enjoying the space they fill in your life, than you might have imagined initially. There were times that I had online conversations with someone and felt the loss when we stopped communicating though there were no commitments made. I have been pretty self sufficient in my life, I thought, haha so it caught me off guard when I felt twinges of loss over something that shouldn't have caused any.
I hope you find the balance you're looking for in a relationship Debi :) Thanks for your comments.
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Debi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 7135
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Introduction to kids could be an entire forum topic I think. The when, the where, the which all could be awkward depending on the situation.
Yeah but I had never even THOUGHT of bringing my kids into it. I'd never do that unless it was going to be a long term relationship, not someone I was "dating". My kids, in the last 10 years have only met 2 men in my life. So that issue was his not mine.
I'm not even so sure that my heart travelled head of my mind. After giving it a lot of thought i didn't miss "him" as much as I missed that something in my life that only belonged to me. Don't get me wrong.....my kids are my whole life and I love them more than anything but I will admit that I need something that they aren't included in to balance out my life. :o)
I'm pretty self sufficient too. Even when I was married I made more than my x, so needing someone to "take care of me" isn't an issue. I hear so many men say they wish they could find a atrong, independant woman but I think when they actually find one they don't know what to do with her.
I'm to the point where i honestly have no idea how I should behave anymore, because nothing seems right.
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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Curt551
journeyman
Reged: 03/23/10
Posts: 82
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Hi again Debi :)
"I hear so many men say they wish they could find a strong, independent woman but I think when they actually find one they don't know what to do with her"
I think that's true on both sides haha. Its quite a dance isn't it. On one hand a guy wants a woman that is independent, self sufficient, strong in her own right yet we also want her to see us as her hero, to be free and spontaneous with us, to allow us to protect her even though she doesn't need it. I don't know that we know exactly we want especially when we're unfulfilled and haven't experienced some of the things we think we want haha.
On the other side I hear women saying they want a strong man who is able to be real, honest, share feelings, entertain deep conversations but they tend to go after "bad boys", seeming to need to be able to change or tame the alpha and, to some degree, measuring love by how much the alpha acquiesces to the taming.
I chuckled about your last line because it is soooo true isn't it haha. I resolved the conflict a long time ago by deciding that it's easier to just be myself and let the chips fall where they may.
Related to dating -
I've experienced the really quick introduction and the no introduction approaches. I enjoy kids but take the invite to meet them as a sign the relationship just took a leap forward toward a serious more long term sort of relationship.
I think people do need to keep the expectations clear because dating, to some folks, is more an interview for a more permanent relationship rather than going out and having a good time just to have a good time and enjoy someone's company. I know initially, without thinking about what I was doing, I was evaluating each woman I met in terms of 'could I live the rest of my life with her' rather than simply trying to enjoy her company and get to know her better without a design toward long term... not ruling it in or out. I think initially I was unconsciously trying to fill the void which would have required a relationship that resembled my marriage. When I read about your situation, that's what I immediately thought the guy was doing in spite of your desire to simply "date". Hopefully we'll both find some people who believe it is okay to simply date. I don't want to be hurt or to hurt someone else because of those misconceptions.
Take care :)
Curt
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Debi
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 7135
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Great insight Curt. I think I agree that for the most part neither sex knows what they want.
Although I will say that despite being independant, I'm not above being "protected" now and again.
I had to laugh at your sentence aboput women going after "bad boys". I think every woman has done that at least once, but I haven't since my early 20's. I'm much happier with a man who knows who he is already. I don't want anyone I have to change or train. I have kids for that. LOL
I also agree that people tend to go into meeting someone with expectations of what the future may bring. I used to do that too. Now my main objective is "Do we have enough in common to have fun together"? I probably did try to fill a void years ago but I've been divorced for almost 9 years now. There is no void left from my marriage. My relationship with my true love ended 4 years ago, so there is no void there anymore either.
I think you're right about what the guy I dated was doing. The truth was we had so much in common and enjoyed so many of the same things it was scary. We could talk for hours and it felt like 15 minutes. I think he may have been doing what you said and thinking about if he could spend the rest of his life with me. The kids were the roadblock for him, and honestly I think he knew that he "could" have spent the rest of his life with me if not for them. We still talk occasionally and he's not seeing anyone else so obviously that wasn't it.
I guess time will tell if there is anyone left out there. Maybe when my youngest starts kindergarten I'll meet someone's grandpa. We'd probably be about the same age. ;o)
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When we were together, you said you'd die for me. Now, I think it's time you kept your promise.
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bacall
enthusiast
Reged: 06/03/05
Posts: 274
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I wrote a lengthy, rambling (who, me?) reply to your post and then deleted it accidentally. So, hopefully, this response will make more sense (it is merely a hope...).
The self-evident is always true. It seems that at the beginning of the divorce "process" (as it has been dubbed), there is so much confusion, so much pain and hurt and disbelief, that all of us heal at a different pace. My healing is far from complete. I always believed marriage was forever and that ideal has been a difficult one to reconcile with what has happened to my life. It has been interesting to read your reflections and your thoughts on restlessness are particularly insightful.
I think, like many others have posted, that many of us feel somewhat the way you do. I can't imagine ever being married again. I believe in marriage and I believe in the "for better, for worse... till death do us part." Apparently, that is not a sentiment shared by many today. Saying that, I have now been alone long enough to also realize that spending the rest of my life alone is certainly going to be -- well, let's sum it up in one word -- awful (that is the best word that comes to mind).
I know some people seem to either just find the "right" one after divorce, some people rush into another marriage for a variety of reasons, some people are so burned they never try again and then there are probably more people like me than I've ever appreciated -- the people who take a long time and still don't know what they want. But, I think all of us -- married, single, widowed, divorced -- all just want to connect with people in a meaningful way and I do believe that most people want a (let's call it...) "special" person who is intrinsically connected with them. I think that is an after effect of divorce. There is a comfort in having another human being to share one's life and when that is taken from you, or removed from you by someone else's choice -- it takes a while to evaluate all of that and come to terms with what it might be that you need.
I also think that the restlessness feature is particularly strong in the spring. Somewhat like the teenage years. I think all divorced people live in a cocoon-like stage for awhile. You seem to be making tentative moves out of yours.
Again, thanks for a thought-provoking post!
Take care, bacall
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Curt551
journeyman
Reged: 03/23/10
Posts: 82
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Hi Bacall,
I just realized that the post I made in response to you didn't actually post... it only took me about a month to notice haha.
I agreed, to a large degree, with your comments. There definitely is a push and pull... a desire to have intimacy and a fear of hurt all at once even in spite of knowing that risk is required to truly experience intimacy; I'm speaking of a spiritual sort of intimacy that may or may not be expressed physically.
I chuckled at the "cocoon-like stage" haha. It is sooo true in my life. At the time of the divorce I isolated, lived primarily in two places in the house... my bed or my favorite chair and organized things around me so it was like a nest inside of the cocoon haha. I can laugh about it now but it really was sad when I was in the midst of it... the shattering of the divorce was across so many levels I really no longer knew for sure who I was and I was not sure who I'd become... whether I'd be a butterfly or a moth... a phoenix or ash.
I am happy I'm making those tentative moves :) I have a long ways to go but I am finding happiness again, joy in doing some of the things I used to really enjoy. I'm also doing somethings I've not ever tried. Not really big things but things I can feel good about accomplishing.
I mentioned in another post that I'd replaced the garbage disposal and a repaired a variety of things around the house. It was not a big deal except to the extent that I felt I was accomplishing something and having those things work was a reward that made me grin... not a thought about the divorce or what she might or might not have said to me in evaluating my performance haha. It was sort of like when I bought my first lawnmower, as ridiculous as this is going to sound. I was 19 years old, freshly married, and had a father-in-law that wanted to buy everything so his daughter would not have to suffer the hardships associated with being a young couple with very little money; you can imagine how well he and I got along the first few years. Well... I bought a lawnmower with my own money. It was my mower, no one elses, earned with my money, no one elses and I started it up the mowed the lawn TWICE with a grin on my face. I laugh my head off thinking back to those days... I was such a kid... then again, I felt the same way when I crawled out from under the sink, stood up, and that garbage disposal actually worked haha. It was a sign that I would be okay... that I am capable and I can continue to be successful. Not in an arrogant way but in a self satisfied hopeful sort of way.
So... you can see my eyes through the outer layer of the cocoon... my arms and feet have broken through. I'm at that stage where walking is wobbly because I want to drag the cocoon with me in case I need to retreat yet I've stepped far enough through that going back would never be the same :).
Hope this finds you in well. Thanks for posting Bacall :)
Curt
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