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emelbee3
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Relocating to AZ
      #689619 - 09/10/10 04:02 PM

I live in MA with my 3 children, ages 13,11 and 9. My ex and I have been divorced for 5 years. I want to relocate the kids to AZ. He has visitation every other weekend, and 1/2 the summer. He works a rotating schedule, so often his visitation is cancelled because he works 24 hour shifts. my ex has no involvement in the boys daily lives, school or activities. If the kids are involved in sports, they stay home with me during his visitation because ex refuses to take them. He recently moved 2 hours from the town where we live to move in with his girlfriend. I am engaged and my fiance lives in AZ, which is why I want to move.

What information to I need to provide to the court to get permission to relocate the kids?


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DedicatedDad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: emelbee3]
      #689646 - 09/10/10 06:21 PM

Did the divorce occur in MA, and do both you and your ex still live in MA? This is important.

Second, moves must be extensively shown how they will be in the best interest of the children. Moving to be with a fiance will not be taken into consideration.

If your ex is still in MA, it would be best if you could negotiate directly with them, rather than let the court decide. Those that move away often must pick up all the transportation costs for long distance parenting time, which could be quite expensive.

Or, a solution is for your fiance to move to MA.


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DeeCan
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: emelbee3]
      #689649 - 09/10/10 06:33 PM

Why must you move to AZ? Can't your fiance move to MA?

Its doubtful that you'll be allowed to move the children that great a distance from their father if he objects.

However, that doesn't mean YOU can't move. You'll just have to move without them and set up a visitation schedule.


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preemiemom
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #690399 - 09/14/10 11:15 AM

Evidently not anymore. I do the lion's share of transport in my move but that wasn't because a judge "said so". Evidently a SPLIT of transport is becoming much more common.

To the original poster, it IS possible to move, you'll have to petition the court, if that is what your state requires you to do.

What the court will consider depends on your state. In my prior state (I relocated in February), having a fiance WAS ABSOLUTELY a factor considered in fact, statistically, it is THE number one reason for APPROVING a move request.

I strongly suggest you check your state law regarding move-aways. Just google it...

Here's a snippet from one site:

If the child is under age 18, or was born in Massachusetts, or has lived there five-years, in order for a parent to move the child out of the jurisdiction, the parent must get one of:


The child's consent, if the child "of suitable age to consent" (the meaning here is unclear); or
Both parents' consent; or
A court order allowing the child to be moved (this is the most frequent route).

No one can speak to your specific case, in your specific set of circumstances. Consult with a local attorney, most will do a 1 time consultation for free.

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DedicatedDad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691018 - 09/16/10 04:52 PM

Did you move out of MA? They allow very few out of state moveaways for children in MA. It makes even more difficult when the other parent has the kids a decent amount of time. In the OP's case, it's nearly 25% of the time.

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googledad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691041 - 09/16/10 11:10 PM

No one can speak to your specific case, in your specific set of circumstances.

>>>>> No , specifics matter , nobody can say what any individual judge will do .

There are , however , constants , specific to Mass. statutes and case law .

There are presumptions whether relocation is allowed and on what party the burden of proof lies to prove it's in the best interest of the child(ren) . .

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preemiemom
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: googledad]
      #691097 - 09/17/10 11:25 AM

I'm confused, isn't that what I said?

As to "presumptions".. same could be said of NY. There is no legal provision for move-aways, there is only case law. There is a "standard" move-away restriction in stipulated settlements. However, in the county I just left, 12 out of 14 judges will nearly ALWAYS grant a move request. 1 out of 14 is a 50/50 shot, and the last is nearly always a "No". Those statistics are from my attorney, who has handled inumerable move-aways in that county. They are, btw, the attorney of ANOTHER poster here. And if you looked at their postings on NY move-aways, and they are in the SAME county, same LAWYER, they'd tell you they are next to impossible to obtain. Obviously,that person never actually ASKED their attorney.

The reality is, in this day and age, that moves are not uncommon and are often necessary. I'm often surprised at the attitude here about them. Reality is, people need to move. People are going to move on with their lives. It happens. Don't want that to happen? It's very simple. Don't get divorced. I realize there are situations where it's DANGEROUS to stay married, but barring that? People should be staying married and working on their marriages, more than they are. Then they want the courts to enforce parenting 'rights', well, stay married. That enforces your right My 70 year old father, raised by a strict Baptist minister father, farm folk.. "gets" it. I actually figured he'd be very OPPOSED to my moving with dd, even if it was back home. Nope, just the opposite. It happens. With what I do, it's not uncommon to move around, a lot in fact. That's a reality. When you divorce, you see less of your kids, THAT is a reality. Always go back to ULTIMATE cause and effect. Don't want to lose time with your kids? Don't want them to move? DON'T GET DIVORCED. It's really that simple.

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DeeCan
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691119 - 09/17/10 02:48 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

You're saying that like everyone has a choice of whether to get divorced or not.

And that's not always true. Plenty of people want to stop their divorce, but, in most places, it's damn near impossible to do.

While I agree with your last about not wanting them to move dont' get divorced, it only applies to an NCP who did the divorcing. It could also be said, however, that if you don't want to lose time/custody with/of your kids, don't get divorced then plan on moving away.

There's so many scenarios, but it can't always be assumed the NCP is the one who did the divorcing.

And not everyone is your ex.

Off my soapbox now, just needed to point that out.

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DedicatedDad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691137 - 09/17/10 04:56 PM

I don't have any problem with people moving. They can go to the moon if they want. But, in the best interest of the child(ren), the child stays back and usually lives with the other parent.

If you were allowed to move the children out of state, there must be a great amount of detail as to why.

Many states do allow in-state moves, which can be 500 miles or more.

If the info from your attorney is indeed accurate, it's a real shame the judges have taken this position. Read what reducing a child's time to a few weeks a year does to a child.


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Miranda
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691141 - 09/17/10 05:33 PM

Are we talking about NY or MA here. I am confused...isn't every state different?

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DedicatedDad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: Miranda]
      #691146 - 09/17/10 06:21 PM

It's extremely different from state to state. They all have their own rules for in state and out of state moves.

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preemiemom
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #691157 - 09/17/10 08:53 PM

Depends on the circumstances, and the child.

First, my child sees her father MORE post-move. He saw her 7 hours a week, 3-4 weeks a month. 28 hours tops. He now has 2 weekends with overnights, or double the hours. 5 weeks vacation, versus none. Oh, which for the summer he only opted for 2 of 3, and cancelled one of the two because it couldn't be all fun time.

My child has some behavioral and probably sensory issues. Since moving and being in a household with two adults working as a team, she is vastly improved, with noticeable regressions in behavior following ANY contact with dad.

It is what it is. And yes, had it gone to trial, I had an overwhelming case in my favor. My ex never took his full time from day one, didn't financially support her but accrued major debt to, in part, support an alky druggie unemployed friend. When he filed for bankruptcy on those debts? He used our child to commit bankruptcy fraud.

At trial, his intended witnesses? His first wife, against whom a no contact provision exists for in my divorce, and her boyfriend/baby daddy, the guy she was banging on the side when married to my ex. NOT the parents he lives with, who could actually testify to the relationship between parent and child. The boyfriend pretty much ran my ex's case. My ex, his lawyer got pretty crucified by the law guardian and the wife and boyfriend were strongly urged not to show their faces again relative to our case.

Yea my daughter is infinitely better off here, than there. No question. My ex is a nut who uses our child like an accessory doll for his older kid.

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The best we can do is live our lives with enlightened improvisation.


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googledad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691170 - 09/18/10 12:03 AM

I'm confused, isn't that what I said?

>>>>>>> Not really .

However, in the county I just left, 12 out of 14 judges will nearly ALWAYS grant a move request.

>>>>>>>>> Then they're not following case law or doing their jobs without a trial . Guess they ain't that great . I'd wonder how many decisions stand up to appeal .

The reality is, in this day and age, that moves are not uncommon and are often necessary.

>>>>> OP never provided a reason why her fiance couldn't move to her state .

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preemiemom
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: googledad]
      #691260 - 09/18/10 07:42 PM

Quote:

I'm confused, isn't that what I said?

>>>>>>> Not really .

-------------------->> Um, yeah it is. I said every case was individual and to consult a LOCAL attorney.

However, in the county I just left, 12 out of 14 judges will nearly ALWAYS grant a move request.

>>>>>>>>> Then they're not following case law or doing their jobs without a trial . Guess they ain't that great . I'd wonder how many decisions stand up to appeal .

------------------------>> I would disagree. Case law in NY provides that a remarriage IS in the best interest of the child and is the #1 reason FOR granting a move-away.

Oh, and there is an EXTREMELY low "overturn on appeal" rate. Virtually none are ever overturned, even if they're actually heard.

The reality is, in this day and age, that moves are not uncommon and are often necessary.

>>>>> OP never provided a reason why her fiance couldn't move to her state .




------------------------>>> There are situations where that IS possible. SO couldn't move either. He would be unemployable if he did. Not getting into details as to why; however, it's not criminal/illegal, just what he does, he does in an unusual/special arrangement. It isn't an option anywhere else. Period. The end.

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The best we can do is live our lives with enlightened improvisation.


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DedicatedDad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691276 - 09/18/10 11:48 PM

I'm not going to beat this to death anymore, but I suspect your attorney's opinion of what the judges would decide is off. If I understood your posts correctly, you didn't win a court decision to move, but your ex agreed to the move.

You may have had special circumstances that would increase that chance to move. But, as I recall with the original poster, the other parent has 25% of the time with the kids, and their only reason listed to move is to get with their fiance. I can't imagine they will be successful. I'll end the conversation here myself.


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preemiemom
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #691281 - 09/19/10 07:10 AM

My case went to the day of trial, didn't end in trial. The opinions provided were provided throughout the preparation; however, were also given to me before I even DIVORCED.

Now, if you want to start practicing law in my former county, and charging $400 an hour? Perhaps then you'd be qualified to say whether the opinions of an attorney who IS practicing in that county are "off". Oh, for the record? , I consulted with NUMEROUS attorneys in my county. All opinions (and information) agreed with that of my attorney. But, again, please let me know your name and address so I can send my legal representation bucks to you

Sorry just peeves me totally that people in entirely different states, without admittance to ANY bar, presume to know what will happen in EVERY state, EVERY case. You know YOUR situation and maybe that of a few friends/family/whatever.. just like the rest of us. That's why I said to the original poster, consult a LOCAL attorney. Explain the details of THEIR case. THEN they will know what is likely/not likely. Not from a bunch of bitter/angry posters with their ax's to grind.

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The best we can do is live our lives with enlightened improvisation.


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DedicatedDad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691282 - 09/19/10 07:24 AM

Like I said, I'm done.....although I'm not sure if you are referring to me as bitter or angry. My ex is a great coparent whom I respect and care for....she's awesome....there's no bitterness here.

I agree that only a local attorney is appropriate for the OP, so they can present the specifics of their case.



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preemiemom
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #691283 - 09/19/10 07:50 AM

I assumed you were, since there was no necessity for the argument to begin with.

I have come to the conclusion (after having been given universally bad advice from this site just recently) that this site does a HUGE disservice to people and that the ONLY advice that should be given is to consult a local attorney. But, that's just me. I won't be posing any legal questions here anymore.

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The best we can do is live our lives with enlightened improvisation.


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Miranda
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Did anyone just look up move away laws? [Re: preemiemom]
      #691286 - 09/19/10 09:14 AM

Massachusetts Law - What If A Spouse Wants To Move Away?

If the child is under age 18, or was born in Massachusetts, or has lived there five-years, in order for a parent to move the child out of the jurisdiction, the parent must get one of:


The child's consent, if the child "of suitable age to consent" (the meaning here is unclear); or
Both parents' consent; or
A court order allowing the child to be moved (this is the most frequent route).
In the event of a court order, the court will make this decision based on what appears best for the child under all the circumstances of the case, and based on whether there is a real advantage to the child in the new location.

The key advantages that can justify a move are:


Employment for the parent.
Being near family, especially grandparents from either side.
Being in the custodial parent's native culture, if significantly different from the present culture.
The court will also consider whether there is a motive to deprive the other spouse of contact; this will work against the move.

And the court will see how much the move will decrease the child's contact with the other parent, which also works against the move.

Section 30.

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googledad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: preemiemom]
      #691358 - 09/20/10 06:51 AM

I would disagree. Case law in NY provides that a remarriage IS in the best interest of the child and is the #1 reason FOR granting a move-away.

>>>>>>>>> Please cite . I haven't seen ANYTHING that overturns Tropea v Tropea , where ALL factors need to be considered before relocation is allowed .

In reality, cases in which a custodial parent's desire to relocate conflicts with the desire of a noncustodial parent to maximize visitation opportunity are simply too complex to be satisfactorily handled within any mechanical, tiered analysis that prevents or interferes with a simultaneous weighing and comparative analysis of all of the relevant facts and circumstances. Although we have recognized and continue to appreciate both the need of the child and the right of the noncustodial parent to have regular and meaningful contact (see generally, Weiss v Weiss, supra), we also believe that no single factor should be treated as dispositive or given such disproportionate weight as to predetermine the outcome. There are undoubtedly circumstances in which the loss of midweek or every weekend visits necessitated by a distant move may be devastating to the relationship between the noncustodial parent and the child. However, there are undoubtedly also many cases where less frequent but more extended visits over summers and school vacations would be equally conducive, or perhaps even more conducive, to the maintenance of a close parent-child relationship, since such extended visits give the parties the opportunity to interact in a normalized domestic setting. In any event, given the variety of possible permutations, it is counterproductive to rely on presumptions whose only real value is to simplify what are necessarily extremely complicated inquiries.

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emelbee3
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: googledad]
      #691362 - 09/20/10 07:05 AM

I am the OP here, so let me answer a few questions. My ex and I have always lived in MA. His scheduled visitation is alternating weekends, but usually ends up being 2-3 days a month, as his schedule rotates and while we are supposed to reschedule his missed visits, his recent move 2 hours away makes it impossible, as he doesn't "have time" according to him.

If I was able to move to AZ, he would see them more days than he does now. Last spring he went 42 days without seeing them because he went on vacation and then worked during the other weekends. He only sees them 1/2 the summer because it's in our divorce agreement. The first summer he didn't take them, so the judge ordered he pay my day care costs for the time they are supposed to be with him. He really is uninvolved, and I'm not bitter, just honest.

The kids would spend 9-10 weeks with him during summer, 2 weeks in October, 2 in December and 1 in March. The move isn't intended to take the kids from him.


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googledad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: emelbee3]
      #691364 - 09/20/10 07:16 AM

I am the OP here, so let me answer a few questions.

>>>>>> No questions there but I'll refer to your first post .

What information to I need to provide to the court to get permission to relocate the kids?


>>>>>>> Follow the guidelines as listed in MA case law .

Be prepared to show that there is a realadvantage/good & sincere reason for relocation , that it is in the best interest of the child(ren) , that it will improve the child's quality of life , that alternate arrangements are possible to ensure the parent child bond with the nonrelocating parent and that the child's physical , emotional and developemental needs will not be harmed due to the move .

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emelbee3
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: googledad]
      #691373 - 09/20/10 07:55 AM

The reason for the move is that I want to remarry and he lives in AZ. His children are there, his career and his family. The cost of living is much cheaper and I would be able to provide a more financial stable life for my children. I was a stay at home mother for 12 years and have always been their primary caretaker. Not having them with me daily would emotionally damage them. They see a counselor who 100% supports my decision. He has dealt with my ex & some issues our kids have with him and he has said my ex is toxic to the kids, emotionally abusive & a narcissist. He went 5 months last year without seeing our oldest son because he was angry at him...5 months! Our 2 youngest boys are playing youth football this season, so instead of taking them to their games during his weekends, he opts not to see them at all. They would probably have a better relationship with him from 3000 miles away because they would expect less.

I emailed my ex about setting up a time to discuss me moving and after 3 ignored messages, he replied he had spoken to his attorney and it was never going to happen. He doesn't know where or why I want to move, but instead of hearing me out, just said to bring him to court. He's not very reasonable.


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Miranda
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: emelbee3]
      #691386 - 09/20/10 08:28 AM

I would never allow my kids to move 4K miles from me either, and that does not make me unreasonable.

Your ex is obviously not going to agree, so your only option is to hire an attorney and take this to court.

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Sherron
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: Miranda]
      #691397 - 09/20/10 08:39 AM

"I would never allow my kids to move 4K miles from me either, and that does not make me unreasonable."

No kidding.

I'm curious as to why he doesn't know where she plans on moving, you'd think that would be important info to include in the request.


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emelbee3
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: Sherron]
      #691425 - 09/20/10 10:41 AM

The reason he doesn't know where I want to move or why is because he won't discuss it with me. I asked to get together and tell him everything and he refused. I spoke with my attorney this morning and we will request a Guardian Ad Litem.

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DeeCan
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: emelbee3]
      #692184 - 09/22/10 06:14 PM

I'm not looking to be argumentative but you say:

"Not having them with me daily would emotionally damage them."

But you're going to send them off for 9-10 weeks straight? I mean, I know that whole bit of not having you with them daily is bull but you can't make that argument then say you'll be away from them for a minimum of 63 days. It doesn't make sense.

And then you say that you and a counselor both agree that he's "toxic" to the children, but again you're going to send them off with him for extended period of time in HOPES it creates a better bond?

I'm going to call it what I see it: you met someone, you want to get away from the ex so AZ is a good choice; considering that your fiance is already set up there. You're hoping that the ex won't take his extended visits and just fade off into the sunset and you, your new husband and the kids will all live happily ever after.

I know you won't admit it, but that's sure how it comes across.

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Runswithscissors
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: emelbee3]
      #695127 - 10/05/10 08:08 AM

Moving is such a touchy subject.

I can tell you, it's difficult in any state. However, each state as other posters posted... is different.

I'm in SC. I was a NCM for 11 years. My ex who is a fed agent got a job out of state. He moved with our daughter. Needless to say.... I now have full custody of our daughter.....

my opionin (and it's only mine)... is that you want to move.. GO FOR IT! But don't take a child away from a parent... it's selfish... Btw.. how did you meet your fiance in AZ?


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Concerned_Dad
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Re: Relocating to AZ [Re: Runswithscissors]
      #740539 - 04/10/11 08:28 PM

Hello,
Recently my ex tried to move my kids from AZ to MA. she stated exactly the same reasons you do (cheaper costs of living, more jobs, better standard of life etc). I have always been a major part of the life of my two boys and now have joint custody with 50/50 parenting, so it is slightly different. The judge didn't allow the move. Arizona is a major joint custody state so I didn't even bother with a lawyer and represented myself. I won on all counts (if you can call it winning). I think the bottom line is that unless there is abuse it's every parents duty to attempt to have both as much of the kids life as possible. I was on the other side of this so I'm biased but still it's all to easy to consider whats convenient for ourselves and not try our best for the sake of our kids.


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