onmyown_36
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My ex and I recently finalized our divorce.(like 5 weeks ago)We were married for over 20 years and have young adult children and one preteen. The preteen lives with me and ex lives in another state. A large part of our breakup had to do with a woman ex cheated on me with. Now we are settled in our new lives and dd goes there for visitation. Well this “woman” using the term loosely, is still in the picture. She stays at exs house (not my problem) but does it when dd is there as well. They have gone on overnight vacations. This woman is still married and also has kids. My attorney says there is nothing I can do about it. Like others have said it is unenforceable. But as this young impressionable girls mother can’t I do something? I feel so helpless. DD knows they are together and knows the woman is married! She hasn’t made the connection yet that this woman was quite instrumental in our divorce. I think she has been told they were friends before this. I try to stay out of it because I know it is not part of my life/business anymore and I try not to get into conversations about it. But when your child comes in and says “Hey mom is Dads girlfriend still married?” You kind of have to discuss it. Real hard when you are trying to promote a healthy relationship between the child and the father. Because our divorce is so recent, our communication is still in a very fragile state.
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SRS
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Nothing you can do about it unfortunately. His house, his rules - as long as no one is getting hurt.
I did express my displeasure to my X when he moved in with the OW. Along the lines of setting an example for his children. But, then I had to move on with my life.
As an aside, they split up recently after a lot of fighting in front of our son and our 5 year old being banned from their home.
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onmyown_36
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I really could care less who he is wit or if he is with anyone frankly...but I do honestly care for the effect it has on our kids. They adore him and look up to him so much and he is setting so many bad examples for my dd as well as my young adult sons that will be starting relationships of their own soon. I try to put myself in his shoes and when I start dating again there is no way I will even introduce them to my kids until there is really something there and then at that I would NEVER have them overnight with my children in the house. Even if I thought it was appropriate -don't we have some responsibility to our kids to set a good example. I think this is even crazier that most of the time she isn't even at his house. He has plenty of opportunies todo that when she is not visiting.
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SRS
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I decided that it is up to me to set a good example for our children. I make decisions as a parent. That is all you can do.
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onmyown_36
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Yep, unfortunately I totally agree with you there. I've been trying really hard to give the kids a safe, secure, stable environment here. Like you said I can't change what he is doing and I'm not getting into something with him about it. I just hope and pray it is enough to teach them the proper way to respect their SO as they get older.
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ssmom79
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I agree SRS good advice.
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gr8Dad
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Lets be honest, you have been separated since at LEAST August of last year (the time of your first post here). So he has been with her for almost a YEAR. You need to accept that they are together and stop painting her as "the other woman" or a FLING, because it is NOT.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SRS
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Unless she is.....
THe OP owes no respect to the fling/ow or her x. None what-so-ever. She can call them whatever she wants to call them on an anonmynous internet chat board.
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LexieBelle
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She "can"; however, it's a pretty big red, flag as to HER issues, and far less about her EX'S issues. Which, in reality, he's MOVING ON! Which, in reality, is WHY people get divorced so they CAN move on. And, if she's been around for year, she's hardly a "fling".
For the OP, when (if) the child asks, I'd simply answer "I don't know.. it's none of my concern and it's certainly not any of YOUR concern". They are a CHILD and that is ADULT business. Also, I deal with this with my ex and his first wife. Who has been with the same guy she cheated on my ex with when they were married. He, as far as I know (and ex knows), is still married. They have a subsequent child together. They don't live together, etc so forth. Dd knows her half-sister has a half-brother. She knows she and her half-sister have different mothers. She knows the half-brother isn't daddy's. He's got his OWN daddy, who has OTHER children. THAT dad's marital status? None of my business really and it's not my daughter's and yes, she's asked and that's exactly what I told her. And, reiterated it was none of MY business either.
Children will SENSE an adult vibe. One doesn't have to SAY anything. Body language, facial expression.. will say it all. The hostility of the language used here, I have no doubt, transfers SOMEHOW into real life.
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onmyown_36
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I block GR8 dad for obvious reasons but I never called my ex anything but my ex. I owe him the respect of being my children's father and nothing else. I owe her none. She didn't give me, my children, her husband, or her kids respect she deserves none. She is what she is.
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onmyown_36
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Lexie- I have said earlier I don't have an issue with him moving on. Honestly I don't . I really want nothing to do with the man again the rest of my life.Hes a waste of space. However, he is the father of my children and they will need me get along with him. I hope he moves on and he obviously has. He actually has been with her for 2 years. My contention is , no one seems to care that these people.... one of which is married and the other was married for most of their relationship..... don't care to teach any kind of morals to her or his children. I would be just as outraged if this was a neighbors family, or a friend's family or heck even a strangers family. This situation is not healthy for a young child to be seeing...regardless of my feelings (which I DO NOT share with my child) when she asked me if she was mrried I simply said I don't know why don't you ask her. And that was the end of the conversation.
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SRS
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You will have to be the bigger parent and demonstrate moral behavior.
Obviously your morals and his are not the same, btw.
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ssmom79
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"My contention is, no one seems to care that these people.... one of which is married and the other was married for most of their relationship..... don't care to teach any kind of morals to her or his children."
____________________________
It is definitely not a way I would want to live or a way of life I would want to teach. I think all kids in their day to day lives (unless they're in a plastic bubble) will be exposed to morally and ethically corrupt behavior. As a parent you have to be an example of the behavior you want to see.
Regardless of your feelings, there isn't much that can be done about it, other than to teach your children the proper way to act in a relationship. Just be careful to present the right behavior without dogging out your ex. Not that you do or would.
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gr8Dad
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"Lexie- I have said earlier I don't have an issue with him moving on."
Then...
"I hope he moves on"
Then...
"he obviously has"
Why would you "hope" for something that has already happened?
"My contention is , no one seems to care that these people.... one of which is married and the other was married for most of their relationship..... don't care to teach any kind of morals to her or his children."
Who's morals, yours? Its a PIECE OF PAPER. Your marriage ended when one of the parties decided not to be married anymore. YOU, if I recall, drug it out over child support and alimony (you were on the alimony board making all kinds of accusations, then CRYING when he fired back at you). So YOU drag out a divorce over money, then act like it SO horrible that they are together. Yeah, he cheated, but you BRAGGED in your first post how he was a HORRIBLE husband, but a GREAT father. I guess your idea of a GREAT father has changed since he STAYED in the relationship that he is in? Huh?
Get over it, move on.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Goodmom
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[quote]Lets be honest, you have been separated since at LEAST August of last year (the time of your first post here). So he has been with her for almost a YEAR. You need to accept that they are together and stop painting her as "the other woman" or a FLING, because it is NOT. [/quote]
While she may not qualify as a fling, she will ALWAYS be the other woman. Just like he will ALWAYS be the other man given that she cheated as well. That's what happens when you go out with a married individual.
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Goodmom
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There's nothing you can do about the other woman being around your kids. But you can model the type of behavior and morals you would like your kids to have and be an example for them.
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gr8Dad
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Well, he got divorced, is paying her alimony, is paying her child support, lost time with his kids...how long SHOULD a person pay for making the mistake of falling out of love with one person and falling in love with another?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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onmyown_36
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Thanks for your comments. I know in my heart I have to continue to do the right thing even if he can't. I wish we still shared the same morals but like its been said... his are different than mine these days.
Makes you wonder how someone who used to have a decent head on their shoulders turn into what they do...
I appreciate all your input. We have settled everything between us just adapting to this new way of parenting is tough.
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Goodmom
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[quote]Well, he got divorced, is paying her alimony, is paying her child support, lost time with his kids...how long SHOULD a person pay for making the mistake of falling out of love with one person and falling in love with another? [/quote]
I don't know, why don't you go and ask the other woman's current husband.
It's not a question of punishing. It's a question of facts. And the fact is that she is the other woman. Just like he is the other man. That's really not something that you can get around.
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onmyown_36
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Not sure where the quote came from but as far as falling in love- thats all well and good..but common decency and respect says if you are done with one love interest you tell the other person. It's grand to fall in love...but guys seem to think its ok for some reason to have their cake and eat it too. I never quite understood that. In my case, after almost 25 years altogether I deserve the respect and decency to let me know he was done. It's not fairness, or punshment, or anything other than human courtesy.
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SRS
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ITA. End one relationship before starting another.
If you don't, you will forever be known as the other woman/man - and rightly so.
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gr8Dad
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"but common decency and respect says if you are done with one love interest you tell the other person"
Agreed.
"but guys seem to think its ok for some reason to have their cake and eat it too"
Men and women cheat in equal parts, its not MEN ONLY.
"In my case, after almost 25 years altogether I deserve the respect and decency to let me know he was done. It's not fairness, or punshment, or anything other than human courtesy."
And a YEAR ago, you found out. And you are getting an alimony check, a child support check, and have almost SOLID control of the children's lives. We get it, he was a bad husband. But since they have been together for TWO YEARS, once her divorce is finalized, they will PROBABLY be getting married. And she will be the stepmom to the kids. So it is about time you put on your big girl panties, realize he made a MISTAKE, he is PAYING for it, emotionally and financially, and GET OVER IT.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SRS
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THey don't always get married. The OW and my X have parted ways after 4 years.
It is romantic and mysterious when they are sneaking around, but when they are drunk in their undies on your sofa it is a whole 'nother story.
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LexieBelle
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And they don't always break up :)
Ex's first wife, who was OW to her current boyfriend while she was married to ex AND while her boyfriend was married to HIS spouse, are still together. Former SD is 10... so it's been 8 years, at least. They have an almost 6 year old son together. They don't live together. Former SD is extremely extremely involved with the boyfriend AND his family. INCLUDING his wife, who, as far as ex and I is STILL married to his actual wife.
An extremely good male friend of mine, had OW for years in his first marriage. Ultimately did divorce first wife and has been married to OW (now 2nd wife) for... dd is 5 1/2.. so about 6? years. He remained extremely close to the first wife until her death a year or so ago. Even did Sunday brunch with her and their then adult son, every single Sunday.
Some people can just go with the flow and not have to necessarily "label" or "judge" other people's relationships. While say ex's first wife's deal might not be my preference, it's her life, her business. I know my daughter has met her sister's "sisters" (who are no biological relation whatsoever). I could have made a big ole stink about it given I have a no contact order between my daughter and his first wife but what would be the point? That's their lives, it is what it is... whatever. I think ex is pretty impressed I've known all this time and haven't said "boo" about it.
Anyway, those I know that have.. outside the norm.. relationships are probably HAPPIER and HEALTHIER than people in "normal" relationships that I see. And, besides, there comes a point where one DOES have to let go! It's just totally and completely emotionally unhealthy to harbor such... bad energy.
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SRS
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So, LB, you agree with adultry? If your DD grows up and has a relationship with a married person, you'd be okay with it?
One of the big 10 in my book, so it is a no-go. No exceptions.
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LexieBelle
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I'm realistic to know it happens. I've been the cheater, the cheated on and the cheating with. It is what it is. Obviously one would PREFER that everything be sunlight and roses and rainbows and everyone does everything EXACTLY perfectly and never makes socially unpopular decisions.
So, would I be "okay" with it? Frankly? It's none of MY business and it's damn sure NOT.MY.PLACE.TO.JUDGE! I've fallen in love with a married man.. while I was married. I left my then husband (first husband). I ultimately left the relationship with the married man but we've been in touch.. recently in fact (the last year or so). In my life, relationship-wise, he's definately the ONE person who I know without doubt loved me, for me. Basically, the comparison if I could give one is the movie Bridges of Madison County.. 'cept I'm the Clint Eastwood character, he was the Meryl Streep one, lol. I make NO apologies for the relationship, whatsoever. He wouldn't either. He's gone on to be ridiculously professionally successful while staying a grounded guy with the same wife, and now two kids. I'm happy to have had someone who "got" me like he did.
It worked for me. If that's what worked for her? Again, NOT my place to judge. I'm certainly not in a position to judge either. Oh and for the record, my biological son? HIS father was married. My son has a half brother 5 or 6 years older. I didn't know that til AFTER the "deed" was done, it is what it is.
I guess it would be nice to live in a judgemental little bubble where everything is perfect per whatever my ideological little vision is. But that's not the reality of life. It's really NOT. I think if people REALLY knew what went on in many people's lives? They'd be totally floored. I live and love in the real world. And it works for me. Doesn't work for you? That's fantastic! I have bad morals? You're uptight and excessively controlling. It's all in the individual view and, thank GOODNESS, everyone is individual :):) otherwise? The world would be incredibly dull and uninteresting place :)
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Avaya
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[quote] But when your child comes in and says “Hey mom is Dads girlfriend still married?” [/quote]
Not hard at all IMO; My response would be "I think she is but since I don't know her I can't really say whether she is or not; however, it's not our place to gossip about her, if she is still married, she will be the one to answer for that and her behavior is a reflection of her, not of you or me so hey, let's go see that new movie that came out this week!"
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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SRS
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Feeling a little guilty? Holy cow!
For me, it is not something I would do. If my children choose adultry, they would not be welcome in my home until that relationship was finished. But, I am not raising them to think that it is acceptable in their lives.
I'm not judging anyone. In my life I don't agree with it and I certainly don't condone it.
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Avaya
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[quote]Well, he got divorced, is paying her alimony, is paying her child support, lost time with his kids...how long SHOULD a person pay for making the mistake of falling out of love with one person and falling in love with another? [/quote]
Yeah, how long? Because it hasn't been too long ago (although not so recently I admit) that you were calling me the OW (been married 16 years). Anyway, I'm glad to see that you've changed your stance.
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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onmyown_36
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LB- I don't think it is judgemental to expect your children to be raised with good role models. This is beyond "my" or "your" or "anyone elses" desires and preferences. We are talking about properly raising children. I am not going to judge what your actions are or anyone elses unless your doing it infront of impressionable young people and acting liek- hey it happens why deny it. I know premartial sex happens but I'm not going to tell my little girl its ok. I know people do drugs, but I'm not going to do it infront of my kids and act like its acceptable or something I want them to do. I am not perfect, either or you or anyone else. But we try -----try---- to do what we want for our kids.
So I'm sorry but I think its lame to say this is the real world deal with it.... do you really tell little kids that? Do you really have hopes and dreams for your son to grow up sleeping with a married woman while he is married to another woman? Really? You're ok with that? It's not judging him. It's teaching him. And you know what for someone who doesn't think they have any place to judge??? You've judged me pretty harshly.
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ssmom79
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It's lame to have an affair in front of your kids.
My hubby's ex is most likely still involved with the man that caused her second divorce and she is currently engaged to another, and both of my SK's are aware of it. My hubby and I have been devoted and caring spouses for nine years in October. They have a positive example and a negative example. There is nothing we can do about the negative example. There isn't a way to force her to do what is 'right' whether it's right by me or right by you. You just can't force someone to behave the way you would ideally act. This mentality caused me great issues with my hubby's ex. Eventually, I came to realize 1) not everything has to be a battle 2) she will not act the way I think it best even if 'my way' is the morally right way and 3) children come across things in their every day lives that are not always right, be it from the TV, the school or the radio. And just like when they are exposed to the TV, the kids at school or the radio, you are the parent to say, hey, we should always do it this way.
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LexieBelle
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[quote]Feeling a little guilty? Holy cow!
-------->> Not even remotely :)
For me, it is not something I would do. If my children choose adultry, they would not be welcome in my home until that relationship was finished.
----------->> Your children wouldn't be welcome??? Are you SERIOUS??? You're right. HOLY COW!!!!! Look, if you wanna think yourself THAT high and mighty? Have at it. But the reality? You're not chief judge and juror. IF there is a God, THEY are. And I feel sorry for your children if your measuring stick of whether they're "welcome" in your home is whether they're having a relationship with someone married or while married. My guess would be? They'd know you well enough to NEVER TELL YOU!
This also explains the newfound.. pleasantness.. between you and your ex. OW is gone, you can stop treating him like a pyriah now. got it :):)
But, I am not raising them to think that it is acceptable in their lives.
------------>> That's nice. Since roughly 50% of people DO have affairs? You've got a 50/50 shot of how you're raising them working :) AND, children tend to learn what they LIVE and they learn the most EARLIEST, so for their early formative years they've been exposed to cheating spouse/other woman. Talk to me in 20/30 years, let me know if they never cheated on a partner.. ever. I'm a betting girl and given your generally overly pious and sanctimonious attitude, they'd probably do it just to spite you, lol.
I'm not judging anyone.
----------->>Really? Go back and reread about YOUR CHILDREN being unwelcome if they behaved against YOUR standard. Surely SOUNDS judgemental to me. Seriously, you should take a moment, re-read what YOU write, look in the mirror and realize what you said. And how totally contradictory it is.
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LexieBelle
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obviously one doesn't teach that it's the PREFERRED approach. Do I teach my child that there's real life and it happens? ABSOLUTELY! I have to. What would you have me do? Her father left b/c of his first child. Perhaps I should tell her that? Because we want to teach them what NOT to do right? I should point out the "sisters" her half sister thinks are, AREN'T. Right? So no, I don't point out that this one was screwing that one and the other one, blah blah blah. I do; however, point out that everyone's family is different and it doesn't HAVE to be just "mom and dad" and everyone's dynamic is different and THAT'S OKAY! And they are ALL "family".. as opposed to being someone's illegitimate brat :) I mean what do you do? Point out all the "bad"? Minimize the people? Their relationships? Their relationships to the child? Is THAT healthy? What does THAT teach? What happens when that same kid decides not to tolerate a black person? Or a chinese one? Ohhhhh, intolerance THERE is bad, but over HERE it's good?
PUHLEEZE! We are THE most intolerant industrialized nation and we are THE most fvcked up one. With probably THE worst morals/family ethic and one of the lowest qualities of life. And that's not me being "judgemental", that's people who have done research and surveys, yadda yadda that PROVE these things. It's sad.
But please, go ahead and harbor YOUR issues and they are YOUR issues. Whether you "say" anything out loud? Children are not stupid and they are KEENLY, INTUITIVELY aware. Don't have to say a single word.. they'll know. And that's sad.
Have a nice day.
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ssmom79
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Is holding a child to a standard actually judging in the same sense that the Bible says not to judge? I don't think it is. If I expect my SD not to do drugs, and she does them and I punish her, that is not the same judgement as me, someone who *hypothetical* has an affair in private, but goes to church on Sunday downing Mrs. Dash about her affair on Mr. Salt with Mr. Pepper. Then having a sermon on the matter. THat is the type of judgement we are taught not to do.
THere is another type of judgement which we as Christians are expected to do, and that is hold our brothers/sisters accountable for their sins and let them know when they stray from the path. What kind of Christian sits back and lets their friend have an affair? They should stand up, tell their friend, hey, this is no good my friend. If you are going to behave this way, we may not be able to hang out anymore.
To me the whole judgement thing is pretty clear but I don't know how it's going out on paper.
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SRS
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It's lame to have an affair in front of your kids....great line.
I am not judging you or your life. You are free to live your life as you see fit.
I am saying that certain behaviors are not welcome in my house - smoking pot, drinking and driving, not going to church on Sunday and other holy days, stealing, hitting your parents, R-rated movies for little kids, and adultry. I don't have to welcome those behaviors in my home. It is my house that I own.
Actually, X sees the kids less now and sends hateful, verbally abusive e-mails even less. I can't control how he lives his life, but that has nothing to do with the conversation about condoning adultry in my home. I actually feel sympathy for him - losing your job, your house, being diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes, your dog dying, and your gf kicking you out.
Anyway - it is your right to allow certain behaviors in your home, but it is also my right to not allow them.
Edited by SRS (07/01/11 10:52 AM)
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onmyown_36
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LB: hhhmmm so you're comparing????? judging or not... screwing and having kids with people your not married to or even intending on marrying...... to being racist? hhmmmm you lost me.
I think you've resorted to stretching quite a bit to justify that your actions are teaching your children some useful skill in life.
Edited by onmyown_36 (07/01/11 11:03 AM)
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ssmom79
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I think lowering yourself to tossing insults to an anonymous poster on an anonymous forum pretty lame too.
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Sherron
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"Since roughly 50% of people DO have affairs? You've got a 50/50 shot of how you're raising them working :) "
It would be interesting to see how many of the 50% who cheat were raised by parents who didn't teach them not to, who had the "it happens" attitude... and how many of the 50% who don't cheat were raised by parents who instilled those values. I'm guessing if you add that into the equation, it's no longer a 50/50 shot.
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gr8Dad
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Define "adultery". Is it having sex while ACTIVELY married? Yeah, I would say so. Is it having sex with another while waiting for the DIVORCE? Gray area. Is is being with someone, NOT having sex, who is married, and waiting for the divorce? Another gray area.
That you would ostracize your kids over it is very unChristian.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Avaya, I NEVER criticized your being the other woman. I criticized your treatment of OTHER people in complicated relationships, you having BEEN the other woman, there is a WORLD of difference.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SRS
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Adultery (also called philandery) is a form of extramarital sex. It is sexual infidelity to one's spouse. It originally referred only to sex between a woman who was married and a person other than her spouse. Even in cases of separation from one's spouse, an extramarital affair is still considered adultery.
THis is straight from Wiki and my beliefs. My beliefs are just that - my beliefs and you can't tell me my beliefs are wrong just because you don't agree with them.
It isn't unChristian-like to say you won't allow adultry in your home. I am not being hypocritical.
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gr8Dad
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"My beliefs are just that - my beliefs and you can't tell me my beliefs are wrong just because you don't agree with them."
So if your kids were having sex with a NON married person, who was in another relationship, that would be okay? That piece of paper is REALLY important to you, ain't it?
"It isn't unChristian-like to say you won't allow adultry in your home. I am not being hypocritical."
Now NOT allowing it in your home, and what you ORIGINALLY said, that you would not allow your kids IN your home if they were commiting it, are two COMPLETELY different things.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
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My beliefs are just that - my beliefs and you can't tell me my beliefs are wrong just because you don't agree with them.
I am one of few that won't try to debate your athiest beliefs, why try to debate my belief system? I actually respect your belief system and your absolutes.
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gr8Dad
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I am not debating you, and I respect your belief structure as well (despite claims by many that I hate Christians, LOL) I just think not allowing your kids in the house when they have made a decision based on their OWN belief structure is harsh.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
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Harsh, maybe, but I am raising them with similar beliefs.
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onmyown_36
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Posts: 134
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I think the part that irks me the most is the guy is fine with this type of behavior as long as the wife sits home and accepts it. When they object they are a b*tch or too demanding or not loving enough or gold diggers. It turns from the guy having his fun but when someone bursts their little bubble they all pitch a hissy fit and blame it on the wife. Then God forbid they ask for child support or eek spousal support.... how awful of them...what horrible people those wives are..... lets not even bring up what the man did to the family unit.....None of us need to be perpetuating this belief on to our male or female offspring.
*** my disclaimer. I know woman sometimes are the first to cheat and I apologize to those men here who were faithful and their wife ruined the family. Please accept my apologies. Unfortuately reseach shows its usually the guy.
Edited by onmyown_36 (07/01/11 07:23 PM)
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SRS
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BOth men and women cheat on their spouses/families. No one in that kind of relationship is thiking of anything except what feels good to them. To hell with any kind of vows.
It will get easier after some time passes. It really does.
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DedicatedDad
veteran
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"Do I teach my child that there's real life and it happens"
That's bullshit. Cheating is 100% a choice.
"We are THE most intolerant industrialized nation and we are THE most fvcked up one. With probably THE worst morals/family ethic and one of the lowest qualities of life."
Don't include me in your "we." I refuse to let that crap affect my way of thinking. Again, it's about choices.
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SRS
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No, my x just tripped and fell into her. Whoops.....lol
.....cheating is a choice, doesn't happen by accident and it isn't real life.
Real life is changing diapers, being with your wife while she's having your children, spending time together, the good, the bad, and the evil. Helping and supporting each other mentally and physically. Give and take. That is real life.
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gr8Dad
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"I know woman sometimes are the first to cheat"
Actually, men and women cheat about equally in relationships.
"It turns from the guy having his fun but when someone bursts their little bubble they all pitch a hissy fit and blame it on the wife. Then God forbid they ask for child support or eek spousal support.... how awful of them...what horrible people those wives are..... lets not even bring up what the man did to the family unit....."
No one is saying you do not DESERVE the alimony or the child support. Actually, in situations where one party broke the marriage contract, you might be surprised to find out that I am in FAVOR of alimony.
But the problem is when you begin to allow those things to flow over onto the CHILDREN. And do not deny it. Do you think your children cannot see the HATRED for this woman in your actions? Yes, your X was a lousy husband, but in YOUR OWN WORDS, he is a GREAT father. Yet you are trying to control him, and paint him as a BAD father, because he is staying with the woman YOU see as breaking up your family. And yes, he made a mistake. Yes, it was a CHOICE< and he made a bad one. NO ONE is trying to shift blame from ANYONE but him. But he HAS been punished, is CONTINUING to be punished, in the form of reduced parenting time and alimony. You have NO RIGHT to continue your punishment of him by smearing HIS choices as to what to morally "teach" the children, TO the children. You can say that YOUR decision would have been different, but his dicisions are HIS decisions, and they must respect them.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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KrazyKat
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Loc: Somewhere in the Middle
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My dd19 has a SM now for over ten years that still may be married to her ex. DD has a half-brother that is 9. She has asked me several times about SM's marriage. I just tell her I dont know and as long as your father is happy and she treats you right, that it is of no concern to us if she is married or not.
Recently, SM has started using ex's last name. DD thinks she still married to someone else. I again told her it wasn't our business. It's between her father & SM. As long as DD19 was treated well, it is not a concern.
DH & I live a very different moral life from the ex. She tends to follow our line of thinking while forming her own opinions. Seeing the lifestyle her father leads, tends to strengthen our ideals mores than ex's.
I don't care what SM does as long as she treats my DD well and doesn't place her in harms way. Not my place to judge her personal business.
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If you have a problem, build a bridge and get over it!
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Goodmom
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Reged: 06/17/07
Posts: 2015
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[quote]My dd19 has a SM now for over ten years that still may be married to her ex. [/quote]
If she isn't married to your ex then she is not the stepmom.
If your daughter really wants to know, the person to ask is her father's girlfriend. Because you are right, it is none of your business anymore.
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gr8Dad
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"If she isn't married to your ex then she is not the stepmom."
It is thinking like that which causes problems. They are together, she loves the child, but their name isn't on a piece of PAPER from the state...so all of that means squat.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Goodmom
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Posts: 2015
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[quote]"If she isn't married to your ex then she is not the stepmom."
It is thinking like that which causes problems. They are together, she loves the child, but their name isn't on a piece of PAPER from the state...so all of that means squat. [/quote]
No, it doesn't mean squat. It just means that she doesn't hold the title of Stepmom. Sorry you have a problem with that.
And it's kind of hard for them to get married if she is already married to someone else. All that does is make him the other man.
But then I am not surprised that you have no problem with the father setting a bad example like that.
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LexieBelle
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[quote] Because you are right, it is none of your business anymore. [/quote]
---------->> You missed the point she made which was, barring the woman doing some wrong to her CHILD, it was NEVER her business. And she never made it her business.
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movingfwd999
recently joined
Reged: 07/04/11
Posts: 2
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How long did your divorce proceedings last?
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Avaya
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Loc: Arkansas
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[quote]"If she isn't married to your ex then she is not the stepmom."
It is thinking like that which causes problems. They are together, she loves the child, but their name isn't on a piece of PAPER from the state...so all of that means squat. [/quote]
Untrue. The definition of a stepmom is your father's WIFE; not his girlfriend or his shack up honey, his WIFE. She may DO all of the things a SM does, but she is not one. It's the fast and loose use of titles that is what causes problems, IMO. Is it just a piece of paper that separates it? Yep, sure is, a very important piece of paper.
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Eternity is too long to be wrong.
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KrazyKat
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Reged: 04/05/07
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[quote]My dd19 has a SM now for over ten years that still may be married to her ex. [/quote]
If she isn't married to your ex then she is not the stepmom.
--> After 10 years, then YES (to us) she is the SM. We don't need a piece of paper to prove that. How she treats my child is what determines the status she receives.
I don't know, nor do I care if they are legally married or not. As long as she cares for and loves my child as she does, then all is well.
You have TOTALLY missed the point of my post.
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If you have a problem, build a bridge and get over it!
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KrazyKat
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They go by these rules and have been for a while.....
If you live in one of the below listed states and you "hold yourself out to be married" (by telling the community you are married, calling each other husband and wife, using the same last name, filing joint income tax returns, etc.), you can have a common law marriage (for more information on the specific requirements of each state, see next page). Common law marriage makes you a legally married couple in every way, even though you never obtained a marriage license. If you choose to end your relationship, you must get a divorce, even though you never had a wedding. Legally, common law married couples must play by all the same rules as "regular" married couples. If you live in one of the common law states and don't want your relationship to become a common law marriage, you must be clear that it is your intention not to marry. The attorneys who wrote Living Together (additional information below) recommend an agreement in writing that both partners sign and date: "Jane Smith and John Doe agree as follows: That they've been and plan to continue living together as two free, independent beings and that neither has ever intended to enter into any form of marriage, common law or otherwise."
Alabama
Colorado
Georgia (if created before 1/1/97)
Idaho (if created before 1/1/96)
Iowa
Kansas
Montana
New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only)
Ohio (if created before 10/10/91)
Oklahoma (possibly only if created before 11/1/98. Oklahoma's laws and court decisions may be in conflict about whether common law marriages formed in that state after 11/1/98 will be recognized.)
Pennsylvania (if created before 1/1/05)
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
Utah
Washington, D.C.
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If you have a problem, build a bridge and get over it!
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Goodmom
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/17/07
Posts: 2015
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[quote][quote] Because you are right, it is none of your business anymore. [/quote]
---------->> You missed the point she made which was, barring the woman doing some wrong to her CHILD, it was NEVER her business. And she never made it her business. [/quote]
And I AGREED with her (hence my statement above of "you are RIGHT"). I didn't miss any point.
I just pointed out a simple fact, that the girlfriend isn't the stepmom.
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Goodmom
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/17/07
Posts: 2015
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[quote]They go by these rules and have been for a while.....
If you live in one of the below listed states and you "hold yourself out to be married" (by telling the community you are married, calling each other husband and wife, using the same last name, filing joint income tax returns, etc.), you can have a common law marriage [/quote]
I know what a common law marriage is. And I am fairly certain that it is impossible to have a common law marriage if one of the parties is still LEGALLY married to someone else. It's illegal in any state in the U.S. to have more than one spouse.
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Goodmom
Pooh-Bah
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[quote]You have TOTALLY missed the point of my post. [/quote
No, I didn't. I just pointed out the fact that while it is not your business, only the actual spouse can be a stepparent. Not a girlfriend or boyfriend.
And before you go on about common law, doesn't apply if she is still legally married to someone else.
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LexieBelle
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You're still missing the point :) But you can't unstuck from the idea of "titles" so you're not going to get the point :(
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finz
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No.
You and KK are missing the point. GM has said, repeatedly now, she was not commenting on the other points. She just wanted to point out that the DEFINITION of a stepmom is dependent on the chick being MARRIED to the father.
People are allowed to comment on a specific point without analyzing or caring about the other stuff said.
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LexieBelle
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No, we got that point just fine.. the point was the definition of "stepmom" isn't necessarily ONLY limited to a legal definition.
I wasn't married to exSO, but he certainly acted in the capacity of a step, and his loss to my daughter, over time, is certainly at the level of losing an actual parent, not even a step. He wasn't "legally" ANYTHING but he certainly had that "role".
I will say that my former stepdaughter's brother's father ALSO has that role and they? Don't even LIVE together. And, as far as I know, he is STILL MARRIED to her half-brother's half-sibling's mother. He is listed as emergency contact for her for school, she stays there very often without her mother. From the conversation I overheard in the halls of court when she called HIM (the married guy) and NOT her mother, NOT her father and went over her day with him apparently. He has had that role now for... nearly 9 years? He is her "stepfather", no question. And they don't even cohabitate.
THAT was the point being missed.
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ssmom79
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A fast and loose title (as someone called it) would be addressing LB's former SO as stepdad.
I think it's different when you've been in a family dynamic for several years (9 in KK's sitch) and it's evolved into that.
My SD and SS call their mom's fiance stepdad. Frankly it's easier to them then saying my mom's fiance. It's my stepdad. Legally, no, but to them, just the same. That relationship is currently ending so stepdad no more...now it's the guy who was almost my stepdad.
I didn't see the reason for pointing out hey, that's not a stepmom, but some people dig on titles.
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LexieBelle
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yes, and ex's first wife's SO would also be "Stepdad" even though he is legally still married to someone else. He has about an equal parenting role with former sd as my ex does. She spends more time with his children with his actual wife than he does with her actual half sibling. I would have no issue saying he's her stepdad. Married or not, still married to someone else or not. He acts in a "stepdad" capacity, regardless of his actual marital status.
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LexieBelle
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As for exSO.. he definately acted in a "stepdad" capacity. And, in reality? He spent more time living with the child than her actual father did. Ex only lived with her for 9 months. He was definately far more interactive and was more involved in actual parenting. Absolutely, he behaved like a "stepdad". And as far as dd is concerned, that's what he was.
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finz
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Some of us stick with more traditional values.....no out of wedlock pregnancies, no dating married people, no shacking up, etc.
You'd be surprised how good ol' dictionary definitions, not LEGAL definitions, stll fit for a lot of us.
No one has disputed that your ex so acted LIKE a stepdad. I absolutely do dispute that he WAS a stepdad. If you start referring to every guy who floats in and out of your life for a year or two as a stepdad, good luck with trying to keep those titles straight.
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gr8Dad
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So a person who steps into or out of your life every couple of years, and a person who MARRIES someone different every couple of years somehow has and effect on how they treat the children?
You do realize that unless you have wedding pictures on the wall,or have framed your marriage license, your kids don't KNOW if you are married or not.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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finz
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I don't know anyone who marries someone different every few years.
Who knows any married people who don't have a wedding picture up ?
Pretty sure getting married is the only reason I would change my last name.....the current Lithuanian surname doesn't roll off the tongue the same way, is butchered on pronounciation, and has been a subject of ridicule for my kids. Life with a popular/common Irish surname is a lot simpler around the Boston area.
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gr8Dad
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"I don't know anyone who marries someone different every few years."
There are quite a few out there.
"Who knows any married people who don't have a wedding picture up ?"
I did not have wedding pictures of either of my weddings up for public display.
So what if you went to a studio and TOOK wedding pictures, but never actually got a marriage license? Because what I am seeing is an AWFUL lot of importance attached to a lousy piece of paper.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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M5M5
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My marriage certificate is framed on my bedroom wall. We also have wedding pictures. When I speak to people, I introduce my DH AS my husband...not my shack up. I also have his last name. Our kids know we are married. I would say 99% of kids know whether their parents are married or not.
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DedicatedDad
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"Because what I am seeing is an AWFUL lot of importance attached to a lousy piece of paper."
I think your confusion lies in that some of us place little or no value on "that" piece of paper. It is merely a formality of the state to get married. The true value comes from getting married in the eyes of God. That part means everything to those that place value on faith.
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gr8Dad
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"The true value comes from getting married in the eyes of God. That part means everything to those that place value on faith."
You know it wasn't until about the 15th or 16th century that the church even RECOGNIZED marriage, right? The rite of marriage is a PURELY man made dogma to benefit the church.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Sherron
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"Because what I am seeing is an AWFUL lot of importance attached to a lousy piece of paper. "
Yeah, and that's just the gays... ;)
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gr8Dad
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I apologize, I am talking about importance to the treatment of a child.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Sherron
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"I apologize, I am talking about importance to the treatment of a child. "
No need to apologize, I actually understand your view... an awful lot of importance attached to a lousy peace of paper, the rite of marriage being a purely man made dogma to benefit the church... all good points.
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/05/10
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I don't live in the 15th or 16th century. I live in 2011 and that piece of paper is important.
A lot of people still believe in marriage and not shacking up. Values.
ETA: SHerron had a point, if marriage is so unimportant why do gay people want to get married so bad.
Yes, your kids know if you are married or shacking up.
Edited by SRS (07/08/11 05:21 AM)
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ssmom79
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I am a prude and old fashioned and I love being married. Some people prefer not being married. It's as important as you make it in your own life. I want my SD to have a marriage, not something like her Mom has, which is stumbling across the first person who shows interest.
I have our photos up even though I have terrible bangs in the photos...and I mean TERRIBLE! We have never framed the certificate...it's locked in a safe...but now I want to! I can't believe I never even considered it.
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SRS
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But, because someone believes in marriage it doesn't make them a prude or wrong or living in the 15th century. It means they have a different set of values than you do. That is okay. It doesn't make one right or one wrong. It means they are different from you.
But, yes, kids do know if their parents are married.
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DedicatedDad
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""Because what I am seeing is an AWFUL lot of importance attached to a lousy piece of paper."
I think your confusion lies in that some of us place little or no value on "that" piece of paper. It is merely a formality of the state to get married. The true value comes from getting married in the eyes of God. That part means everything to those that place value on faith."
I should clarify that further. I think non-believers have to put all their faith in the state and marriage license (and their new spouse), because there is nothing beyond that. For those that marry in faith, those things listed are important, but faith is the most important.
Just clarifying that I can't therefore cohabitate without being married first. My post might have insinuated that a marriage license is unimportant and that what used to be called "living in sin" was ok with me.
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LexieBelle
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[quote]"I don't know anyone who marries someone different every few years."
There are quite a few out there.
------------->> Yup.. there's a 50% divorce rate. It's pretty likely people have multiple marriages.
"Who knows any married people who don't have a wedding picture up ?"
I did not have wedding pictures of either of my weddings up for public display.
------------>. Me either. Neither did my parents, or either of their parents. My father's parents had a picture of their SON'S wedding up.. but not THEIR wedding. My other grandparents never had a wedding picture up, nor did my great-parents that I can recall.
since I know I'll get battered b/c I've been married multiple times, I'm the only person in my family to actually GET divorced (for the record, my parents, though separated are still legally married). My great grandparents were married for.. 70.. years. My grandparents nearly 60. My parents, 43 before separating and my uncle and aunt have been married about that now (also no pics up). Oh and ex's parents don't.. and I don't recall any wedding pictures at his father/stepmother's house either. Ex is 40... so they've all been remarried now in their respective 2nd marriages... 35 years? About that. So hardly "every few years" changing spouses.
So what if you went to a studio and TOOK wedding pictures, but never actually got a marriage license? Because what I am seeing is an AWFUL lot of importance attached to a lousy piece of paper. [/quote]
----------->> and having PICTURES to put on walls evidently. Maybe a difference of philosophy but one I know ex shares... we know what WE look like. We see ourselves in the mirror every day. I'd prefer to look at ART on my walls. I'm not art, lol.
I don't know, I guess I look at it as vain? I don't need to look at myself every day, and if I'm married, I'm committed to my marriage, presumably, without having to have a picture or a license on the wall to remind me.
Have to say the funniest thing I've ever seen? An acquaintance of mine has her wedding portrait up. Except? She's been DIVORCED.. for like.. 9 years. And they don't have kids together. And she's not currently married. It's just so bizarre to me to have an enormous wall-sized wedding portrait of oneself on the wall... particularly when one is NOT married.
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LexieBelle
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[quote]You do realize that unless you have wedding pictures on the wall,or have framed your marriage license, your kids don't KNOW if you are married or not. [/quote]
----------->> I would tweak this a little and say they don't HAVE to know. Meaning, they'd obviously know if you introduced your husband with the title "my husband". If you introduce someone as "my boyfriend" or whatever, then they'd know from that.
With exSO I didn't give him a "label", I didn't with my ex either. They have a name, that's sufficient, no need for "this is MY husband". Seems overly... possessive.. to me. Plus, at this age, to use "boyfriend" seems terribly juvenile. This is so and so, and leave it at that.
I don't disagree with "values", I just don't think they HAVE to be tied to a piece of paper or ceremony in front of "God". I think EVERYONE should have the right to that piece of paper, and that ceremony, if that is what THEY WANT. But I don't think it's fair to say someone doesn't have values just b/c it's not something they want or need.
Take Charlize Theron. She just did an interview on Piers Morgan. She doesn't believe in "marriage". And won't do it. However, she believes in OTHERS' right to it. She isn't a floozie or whatever, she's had very few and very long-term relationships. She's not tabloid fodder, she doesn't have a bad red (very unusual for Hollywood) she just doesn't need a paper/ceremony/approval by "God" to have a commmitted relationship.
And, as Gr8 said, marriage IS something manmade. What he said is absolutely correct. In fact, in i believe it is Native American Indian culture they do NOT believe in lifelong partnership to one person. They believe that each person has seasons and that a different partner may be appropriate for the varying seasons. I tend to agree with this philosophy.
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onerose
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It is romantic and mysterious when they are sneaking around, but when they are drunk in their undies on your sofa it is a whole 'nother story.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BWAHAAHAA.
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gr8Dad
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"That is okay. It doesn't make one right or one wrong."
Then to judge them, like you did, and say that they have LOOSE morals is incorrect, right?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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KrazyKat
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Loc: Somewhere in the Middle
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Kids do not always "know" if their parents are married or not. Ex's son with his wife/lover/baby mamma/shack up has NO IDEA if his parents are married or not.
I don't have a wedding pic up of DH and I. However, our 2 oldest know we are married cause they were a part of the ceremony. If they hadn't been present, they wouldn't know for sure without digging out documents.
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If you have a problem, build a bridge and get over it!
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SRS
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I respectfully disagree with that. Kids do know if their parents are married. Perhaps is a regional thing. In the midwest, perhaps it holds more significance.
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KrazyKat
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People wear rings, call each other husband/wife and act as if they are married but there is no legal documentation to support it.
I wouldn't do it but I'm not putting my head in the sand about others doing it. And frankly it's no one else's business.
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If you have a problem, build a bridge and get over it!
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SRS
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Posts: 2161
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If my kids ask me if Dad and Gf are married, I would redirect the question to Dad and change the subject. I wouldn't trash Dad, but I wouldn't lie about it either.
Personally, I don't believe in living together and pretending to be married. If you are buying rings and such to wear as a married couple, why not just do it.
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30210
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"I don't believe in living together and pretending to be married. If you are buying rings and such to wear as a married couple, why not just do it."
Well, there are some VERY valid reasons to NOT get married. Older people on Social Security get it reduced if they get married.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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finz
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 6462
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I don't think older people on SS often make babies and lie about really being married to their live in just to trick the kids into thinking they are married.
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finz
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/17/08
Posts: 6462
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[quote]"I don't know anyone who marries someone different every few years."
There are quite a few out there.
"Who knows any married people who don't have a wedding picture up ?"
I did not have wedding pictures of either of my weddings up for public display.
[/quote]
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Not saying they aren't out there.....saying I don't know them.
You're not married. You were previously married. I could crack a joke about maybe the lack of a wedding picture, (the showing of a pictorial symbol of the union that gave you joy, something that you want to share with all whom enter your home) was symbolic of why those marriages failed, but the comback is too obvious.....having that wedding picture obviously hasn't brought success to my union.
Meh.....it still is symbolic of the beginning of our family.
And.....I weighed waaayyyy less back then.....and I was cuter. Or, as my kids have said....."You didn't look anywhere near this hideous back then.....What happened?"
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/05/10
Posts: 2161
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People on SS are not raising their children. THey probably aren't lying to their children about getting married either. That is a silly argument.
I do know of a woman that refused to marry her live-in because she'd lose alimony. Niiiiiice.
Edited by SRS (07/11/11 06:21 AM)
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AngelBaby
recently joined
Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4
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[quote]Define "adultery". Is it having sex while ACTIVELY married? Yeah, I would say so. Is it having sex with another while waiting for the DIVORCE? Gray area. Is is being with someone, NOT having sex, who is married, and waiting for the divorce? Another gray area.
That you would ostracize your kids over it is very unChristian. [/quote]
It's not a grey area... speaking of Christians, the bible clearly states that you can commit adultery by lusting after another with your thoughts! (Matt 5:27-28)
So anyone sleeping with or having relations with anyone whom they are not married to are committing adultery.
Having "relations" with anyone you are not married to makes you an adulteress or an adulterer.
Living togeter as a couple and not being married is considered adultery also.
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30210
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"So anyone sleeping with or having relations with anyone whom they are not married to are committing adultery."
You REALLY need to learn your own bible. That is called FORNICATION< not ADULTERY.
"Having "relations" with anyone you are not married to makes you an adulteress or an adulterer."
False.
"Living togeter as a couple and not being married is considered adultery also."
Wouldn't that be making the assumption that they were having sex? Isn't that JUDGING (something SPECIFICALLY forbidden by the bible)?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Tweeby
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/05/04
Posts: 7100
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Opps posted in the wrong thread. See the grandparents thread above.
Edited by Tweeby (07/12/11 03:02 PM)
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