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LexieBelle
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OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate)
      #772239 - 12/28/11 01:33 PM

Posted for discussion and debate.. too quiet around here ;)

Parties: Children..girls.. age 5 and 6.

Situation: 6 yr old girl gives 5 yr old girl a gift for Christmas. No problem. Til about 2 hours later, gift giving child wants gift BACK. Situation addressed by moms of both girls at the time. (actually unusually strong intervention on the part of the gift giving/taking back child's mom).

Situation thought to be resolved, until next day, 5 yr old child, as soon as they come home from school, retrieves said gift and puts in backpack. When asked why, states that the gift giving child REALLY wants to the gift back and that child won't be friends anymore if gift is NOT given back.

5 yr old is calm/okay about it.. having been convinced the gift is "special" to the giver and they don't want to lose a friend.

Question: As a parent, do you ALLOW the gift recipient to RETURN the gift to the child who gave it? If you DO allow it, do you address the issue with the gift giving child at all?

Discuss....

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Yes, this is real world.. Yes, this is my daughter and one of her friends.

Yes, the situation has already been handled.

Yes, I DID allow the return of the gift.

YES, I dealt with the gift giving/reneging child this morning when the gift was returned.

I let her know in NO uncertain terms that her behavior was completely unacceptable and she should consider herself VERY lucky that she had a friend as gracious as dd, who would allow a gift given, to be taken back, just b/c giver had a change of (selfish) heart.

I also warned her if she EVER pulled that again with my daughter, my daughter would NOT be socializing with her outside what was absolutely necessary b/c they happen to be in the same grade (and currently, same class).

For the record? This child has a HABIT of having tantrums and BULLYING dd into doing what she wants dd to do. Also has a habit of telling dd "I don't care" all.the.time. VERY.. umm.... disrespectful child. Nothing blatant.. just looks, attitude... sneaky little brat.

If dd was going to give the toy back? Wasn't going to be without my having something to say about it.

I will also say, I'm not SURE that I did the right thing? I think the behavior on the part of the girl sucks. I'm not sure dd should have given the gift back at all. I HATE teaching her that she should give in to someone else's emotional blackmail.. HATE it.. particularly given it's a natural part of her personality TO be like that. I really really do NOT want to reinforce it. So I'm debating if I should have told her she could NOT return the item.

I'm less concerned about whether I should have said something to the other little girl. I wasn't mean or anything. But she knew I was pissed. She knows me well enough to know my looks, know my tone of voice and I made it CRYSTAL clear she couldn't be any lower on my shyt list if she tried.


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Reilly
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772240 - 12/28/11 01:39 PM

The girl is 6..you probably didn't phase her at all..she got the gift back, you know?

I would have probably told my child to return the gift and to move on...and I would limit social contact going forward...

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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772241 - 12/28/11 01:48 PM

Sounds like a brat of a child, just another brat of a child in a continuing society of brats. Yes as a parent I would allow my child to give it back. Then I'd tell my DD you can choose your friends, if you think she would be better to not have as friend then do not put as much value in your friendship. I tell my SD that when a girl lets her down, she can either forgive her and move on, or she can forgive them and leave them there without her. She doesn't need friends like that. Neither does your DD.

If it made you feel better to let her know how you felt, and you felt better, then you accomplished what you wanted. I don't agree with having a 'say' to a six year old. Just don't think a six year old can handle the maturity and thought behind what you said.


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Debi
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772242 - 12/28/11 01:59 PM

Question: As a parent, do you ALLOW the gift recipient to RETURN the gift to the child who gave it? If you DO allow it, do you address the issue with the gift giving child at all?

Yes, I would allow my child to return the gift if that was her choice. I think to force her to keep it knowing the other child wanted back so badly would cause anxiety and she would probably not enjoy the gift anyway. I would make sure that my daughter knew I was proud of her for putting a person above a thing, but also let her know that friends don't demand gifts back.
I would not address the other child but rather the parent and let the parent know that no future gifts should be exchanged between our children. I would also not encourage a friendship outside of school. I am a big believer in letting my kids deal with their friendships as they see fit but I will step in if I see someone walking on my child. I have only had to do that once. It seems you've mentioned this child more than once and that she has issues. It sounds like for some reason your daughter really likes her and that makes it difficult. Sometimes when our kids are that young we have to end toxic relationships for them, because they don't know how to do it.

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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772243 - 12/28/11 02:00 PM

What was the unusually strong intervention you mentioned?

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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772244 - 12/28/11 02:10 PM

THey are 5 and 6 (Kindergarteners). It may have made you feel good to "talk" to the little girl, but remember....they are 5 and 6. My tennis shoes are older than either of them.

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: ssmom79]
      #772245 - 12/28/11 02:12 PM

Yeah, I go through this with dd all the time.. not needing friends like that. Too much of my genes I think.. she just gravitates to girls who need "fixing"...

Anyway, what I said was very simple. Not hard to understand. Be thankful you have a nice friend who is willing to let you take back something you gave her. That's RUDE. Don't do it again. If you do, she won't be your friend anymore, because **I** say so. I'm EXTREMELY disappointed in your behavior. Completely unacceptable.

And I walked away. She was pretty near tears but I doubt it's cuz she actually felt bad. She just doesn't like being admonished in any way. She has no remorse, no capacity for sympathy, none for empathy either. She's just a mean mean little girl. The afterschool teachers try to keep them separated.. altho less so recently b/c dd is handling herself better about it. And for the record, this isn't "my" issue, like I'm being oversensitive.. "Mean" as a label, I got from the afterschool staff. and she is, she's just a mean little girl. there's something missing. Like I looked at her today, right in the eye.. and there's nothing there. Like with dd, you can see sadness, you can see acknowledgement.. this girl doesn't have that.

Reilly: Yeah, I've already doused the relationship a LOT. It was christmas, dd did so much for them. Made cards, made paper stockings.. bought cards. Just a whole big deal. She would have been devastated not to see them Christmas. We were going to go to a movie but I nixed that.. and I won't be rescheduling that part. They'll be at her birthday party I presume and then there'll be another big break. I really do try to limit contact.. I've even considered pulling dd from this afterschool program bc of how this girl is and the drama she causes with dd but I've decided against it... Ex is more leaning towards pulling dd out of there too but I'm not sure it really "solves" the problem, you know?


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: ssmom79]
      #772247 - 12/28/11 02:18 PM

[quote]What was the unusually strong intervention you mentioned? [/quote]

LOL.. she actually intervened and disciplined at all :)

The mother is pretty burned out. For example, I mentioned dd's report card..now, remember her daughter is in class with dd.. "Report cards? Report cards came out? Really? When did that happen?" Mind you she has THREE children in school right now. Report cards came out a few weeks ago now.

She rarely knows about school events.. anything. Doesn't attend stuff. Relative to this little girl, she's VERY happy that I go to events.. I basically play "dual-Mommie".. I'm there for dd AND i'm also there for this little girl. They always sit right by each other.. so it's pretty easy. I make sure I take pics, yadda yadda.

So I also pay POSITIVE attention to her.. often in times when her own mother doesn't (and probably didn't even know there was an option to b/c she just doesn't pay attention).

Anyway, it's rare she says/does anything. We mostly socialize in my house.. and there it's absolutely me parenting all the kids. So for mom to be very forceful/adamant that my daughter was NOT to give back the item was very very very unusual. I actually didn't say too much, other than to reinforce what her mom said.


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772248 - 12/28/11 02:19 PM

You made a kindergartener cry? Was that what you wanted to accomplish? I would be MAD if another Mom made my child cry like that. You would be getting a serious phone call AND I'd talk to the aftercare people to see why you were allowed to speak to my child like that.

If the little girl was causing drama and you felt it was unacceptable, why not just stop the friendship outside of school? Kids switch friends constantly. It wouldn't be a huge deal unless the parents made it into a big deal.


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DedicatedDad
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772249 - 12/28/11 02:23 PM

I wouldn't allow returning the gift. I would make it clear presents aren't given back....and that would be the end of it.

I would however, allow my child to donate the gift to the Goodwill if he/she so desired. This teaches my child they can give their stuff whoever they want to, but there should be no conditions attached.


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Loretta
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772250 - 12/28/11 02:24 PM

I would have talked to the parent, given the gift to the parent, smiled, walked away, and limit contact outside of school. Then I would have a talk with my child about gift giving.

The convo you had with the child was out of line, IMO. She's 6. Have the talk with her parent. If someone found something your child did unacceptable would you appreciate them talking like that to your child or would you rather them talk to you and let you deal with your child in a way you know to be affective?


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Debi]
      #772251 - 12/28/11 02:26 PM

Yes, dd is totally drawn to "toxic" friends. Absolutely. We had the problems with the nanny's kid, remember? Then my high school friend's daughter.. which, ultimately dd ended that..but wtih a lot of coaching from me.

This one has been tough. This is her longest friendship. First friends since we moved back here. Almost 2 years. All of formal preschool.. now they are in kindergarten together. They are in afterschool together. They spent 9 hours a day, 5 days a week, together. I can't totally separate them, b/c they're in class together.

Dd is aware they have problems. She is also trying to work through handling them. It's actually been good for her.. the afterschool teachers have commented on that too. DD's come a LONG way, in a short period actually, in handling them.

I think the problem is she has good times with them too, so she knows it's POSSIBLE. She just thinks if she tries hard enough, and if I intervene enough and properly parent them, they'll be fine.

Funniest Christmas moment: Mom and I are sitting at the table, having a glass of wine (ok, she had most of the bottle by then.. I was still nursing my first half glass).. dd and one of the kids were having a snack. DD says.. and I quote:

"Mommie? You need to write a book. You need to write a book to teach other parents who don't know how to control their own kids"...

D'OHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

it's either that, or an 8 day boot camp. We switch houses.. dd goes to the other mom's house, where she'll train her in how to parent like me.. and I'd take the kids so I can parent them properly.

On the one hand, totally embarassing.. on the other hand? Very flattering.. I had an "oppositional" kid a little over 2 years ago who was throwing around 90 pound chairs when she couldn't get what she wanted.. now I've got a very compliant one, extremely considerate and caring, who thinks I'm the best/smartest parent ever and I should teach other parents how to be... Not bad if I do say so myself ;)


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772253 - 12/28/11 02:30 PM

Funniest Christmas moment: Mom and I are sitting at the table, having a glass of wine (ok, she had most of the bottle by then.. I was still nursing my first half glass).. dd and one of the kids were having a snack. DD says.. and I quote:

"Mommie? You need to write a book. You need to write a book to teach other parents who don't know how to control their own kids"...

D'OHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

-------------------------------------

That isn't funny at all. THat is something that a little person heard at home inappropriately and repeated back. It is disrespectful and downright rude. If my 6 or 8 year old child said that, I'd be embarassed - not proud.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Loretta]
      #772254 - 12/28/11 02:32 PM

Honestly? I'd want them to deal with dd. Absolutely.

And again, please remember, this parent has WELCOMED me intervening and parenting her child. It's not like I haven't done it before.

But yes, if it were my child? Absolutely. I'd want it done in the moment, not passed to me, and then I have to deal with something hours/days later. No, handle it. That's the way it used to be in the good 'ole days. You fvcked up at Johnny's house, Johnny's dad ripped you a new one and sent you home to tell your parents about it.

I have NO issue with that at all. It's like a cat that pees on the carpet. do you handle it THEN? Or do you wait until 12 hours later when the cat already forgot they peed on the carpet? No, you do it then.

also, for the record, I do the same with her myself. If she's in trouble in the middle of Old Navy and gonna get her butt smacked, guess what? There's none of this "Just WAIT until we get home!!!!" crap. Find an empty aisle and her butt is gettin' smacked in the store. Handled right then, right there.

Think what you like but it's HIGHLY effective. And my daughter thinks I walk on water. yeah she has her moments that I'm the worst mommie on the planet but, in general, I have my daughter's respect. Absolutely. But I am also very kind, very generous, and very interactive. And she has a significantly better quality of life than most kids around her. She's a lucky kid. And she is well aware of that. BUT, I am the fountain from which all good things flow.. and you don't fvck with that. Makes life really easy :)


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Spring
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772255 - 12/28/11 02:33 PM

I had a few instances when my son was young where I actually had some success "reasoning" with kids that young...at their level. I likely would have "not allowed" my child to return the gift but more so through a discussion with both girls about giving and receiving, how we treat other etc....but no emotional conversation, no belittling...and I would not have made the other child cry.

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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772256 - 12/28/11 02:36 PM

Really - a 40 year old woman making a kindergartener cry at aftercare? and you think that it is okay? you don't think that it is being a bully?

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772257 - 12/28/11 02:37 PM

LOL.. you don't know my daughter. She didn't hear it anywhere, she came up with it entirely on her own.

Basically dd's intellect is somewhere in the 15 year old range. In terms of logic, etc. Her ability to communicate is also insanely high. The child psychologist that evaluated her last had to stop herself from playing certain word games b/c dd could just keep going.. like abnormally so. Basically she has "savant-like" qualities.

She knows these kids can't behave. She also is VERY aware their mother doesn't parent them. She knows there are books on how kids should behave. So in her intelligent/logical mind.. I parented her into being "fixed".. I know how to do.. they make books for kids on how to behave.. parents need one and her mother should write one. Not that complicated.

If you met her, and talked to her.. you would understand.

And it was funny.. but yes, I felt bad. But, it was hysterically funny. The other child thought my daughter had a GREAT idea. LOL. I actually may do it quite frankly :)


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772258 - 12/28/11 02:39 PM

Perhaps she doesn't spend enough time with other children her own age. Sounds like a KID that spends too much time with adults and perhaps a Mom that uses her for a friend.

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772259 - 12/28/11 02:39 PM

[quote]Really - a 40 year old woman making a kindergartener cry at aftercare? and you think that it is okay? you don't think that it is being a bully? [/quote]

Actually it was this morning dear :) Nothing I said was said with even so much as a slightly raised voice. She just didn't like getting caught asking for something back her mother already told her NOT to ask for back.

Her mother wasn't there to handle the situation, i was. And I did. And as my child's mother? The child who is giving the item back? I have that right.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772260 - 12/28/11 02:43 PM

who mine?

She's with kids all day. And no, I don't remotely use my daughter as a friend. Are you on crack????? Where'd you get that from???

Obviously you're in a mood today soooo, have fun. I've got a damn healthy mother/daughter relationship (and trust me, I know what one ISN'T), and I have a ton of people around me who SEE my daughter, and me, and who know what a great mom I am and what a great job I'm doing and what a great kid she's turning out to be. You got issues with your one? Don't transfer them on to me.


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772261 - 12/28/11 02:44 PM

A 40 year old woman NEVER has the right to make someone else's child cry - especially at school. It borders on being verbally/emotionally abusive.

My dear, as you say, I'd call the school and raise the roof if you talked to my child like that at school. I'd do everything in my power to ensure you weren't allowed to talk to anyone else's child at school.

If it was such a big deal, why not just give the darned toy back and cut off the friendship outside of school. You are the parent in the situation.

Why do you seem to enjoy making a 5/6 year old cry? A grown woman making a person only as old a their purse cry just isn't acceptable.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Spring]
      #772262 - 12/28/11 02:46 PM

As I said, I know this little girl.. and she doesn't cry out of ANY sense of remorse. She's pissed off. think.. "bad seed".. kind of little girl. She's the type to pull wings off butterflies and laugh about it. If she got teary eyed it's ONLY because she got caught.

And is there some law against childrn feeling bad? When they do BAD THINGS, well, hell, then you SHOULD feel bad. Seriously.

But anyway, like I said, any tears weren't sadness or feeling "bad". I saw the look in her eyes and she was M.A.D.. MAD. NO other emotion.


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772265 - 12/28/11 02:49 PM

Issues or a mood? Nope. Up for a healthy debate - sure.

I just don't get your pleasure in making a little person cry.

I can't fathom a child saying such hurtful things to a grownup. It wouldn't be found even slightly humorous in my social circles.

Yes, I remember your child is special. However, there are boundries in life and it doesn't sound like your daughter is learning about those.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772266 - 12/28/11 02:54 PM

What was hurtful SRS? That her behavior was unacceptable? Really? That's hurtful? You'd better call CPS on me then b/c I tell my own daughter that when she's misbehaving. That you don't give things and then take them back? That's mean? Umm.. that's a pretty basic social norm isn't it?

You have this perception apparently of me in this kid's face screaming bloody murder. Not so. My voice was extremely flat and calm.. not raised much above a whisper. i wasn't in her face, there was no finger wagging, not a thing. i said what I said very calmly and nicely. And I meant every word.. none of which was "mean". Her behavior WAS rude, it IS unacceptable and she WON' be socializing with my child if she pulls it again.

Do I feel bad she got teary-eyed? Not even the REMOTEST bit. She wasn't REMOTELY sad she was ANGRY. She got caught. And I called her on it. As I've done before with other things. Which, by the way, I've handled nearly identically, right in front of her mother, with her mother's blessing. Oh and she cried.. full blown.. those times. today's reaction was mild :)


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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772267 - 12/28/11 03:01 PM

My kids tell me all the time to write a book helping parents get along like their parents. They think without me their parents would still act like children. I will write a book someday.

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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772268 - 12/28/11 03:03 PM

She would not be socializing with my child...bad seed, pulling wings off butterflies, tantrums, no thanks...

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Cassie23
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772269 - 12/28/11 03:27 PM

I would have allowed my child to give the toy back and I would have discussed it with the another child's mother the next time I was able to.

I have said in the past that your daughter sounds like my daughter at that age. She would be speaking in a public place and people in front of us would look behind them to see my little 4 year old. They would say, "Oh I thought that voice belonged to a 15 year old". She was way beyond her years and I have never treated my children like my "friend". As she got older, a teen, her teachers and for example, her guitar teacher told me conversing with her was BETTER than conversing with most people his age (he is 40). She is very sophisticated and witty for her age. She GETS things, she interacts well with people regardless of their age and people ENJOY her. She isn't like that because of my lack of parenting; she is a rarity.

Now my D also tends to find the kids that need fixing. Just recently one of her "BFF" (and I use the term loosely) texted her and said, "I feel evil today". She then went on to tell D she was taking people's cell numbers and posting them on Twitter. Upon posting their numbers she suggested that others' call and harass these people because they are people BFF no longer likes. D was truly upset and said, "Mom why would she do something so horrible?" D asked her BFF and she said- "This is reality D, this isn't the fantasy life you live in. People do mean things". I asked D why she was so surprised- it seems like this girl is always doing something that makes most raise their eyebrows. I know D has some sympathy for her because her parents lack communication in their family as a whole and they seem to care more about material items than anything else. She sees good in the girl and she hopes to fix her. BFF's parents love my D because she is great student and well rounded kid- they hope D will wear off on BFF... What her parents need to realize is my D can't fix their child it needs to start at home with THEM.

Regardless I tell D she can't change people. That this is who this girl is and if she doesn't like her it is time to cut ties with her completely. The positive has never outweighed the negative. I can only tell her and hope she understands that she controls her own destiny. However if she continues to surround herself with people like BFF then this is the kind of stuff she is choosing to deal with.


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Cassie23
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772270 - 12/28/11 03:30 PM

As for your D's "friend"...

My SD was very much like what you describe. She seemed to have almost no conscience when it came to getting scolded or in trouble. She showed NO remorse for the problems she caused or the things she did. There was NO accountability. Now, after living in our home, I see a change. It has been slow, but I believe she is coming around in ways I never thought possible. It's been a long time coming.


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youngatheart
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772271 - 12/28/11 03:30 PM

I would return the gift to the PARENT, along with an explanation. I would inform my child that he/she is not to accept a gift from that child again, and I would limit contact.

I would also pull my kid out of the VERY unprofessional after school program for thinking it okay to talk about a child to someone who is not his/her parent.

And no, I would not have had that discussion with a six year old.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: youngatheart]
      #772272 - 12/28/11 03:39 PM

Good point, YAH.

If the after school program is talking to me about another person's child - what are they saying about my child? Not professional at all.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Cassie23]
      #772273 - 12/28/11 03:39 PM

Thanks Cassie.. yes, the more you describe your dd, it's like how I would describe dd. Well except the "sounds like".. she sounds like that in words, but she has a chipmunk voice, ROFL! another thing if I had $1 for every time someone said to me "Oh my GOSHHHHH I LOVE HER VOICE!!!!! How CUTE is that???" I'd be fricken rich ;) I always tell them "imagine that voice.. 5 times louder, in about 10 pitches higher.. then tell me how cute it is..winky eyes".. LOL.

But yeah, conversational content? Vastly beyond her years. No, I've never babied her. I never ever goo-goo'd, ga,gaah'd. Not my speed. Have I ever suggested I write a parenting book? ROFLMAO HELLLLL NOOOOOOO! She's been wanting me to start a boot camp for kids for a while now.. evidently the book is getting around my boot camp veto?

Anyway, I'm REALLLYYYY trying to get her out of this "fixer friends" bit. We know.. or at least I know.. where that leads.. don't want to see her go there. At any level.

And it does annoy the crap out of me that other people DO NOT PARENT THEIR CHILDREN!!!! And many don't. I have a friend, same afterschool, SEVEN kids.. fairly newly divorced. Her kids are sooooo well-behaved, sooooo respectful.. just the sweetest kids you could ever want. And she did it largely herself even when married. So being divorced and having a handful of kids isn't an excuse to be a lazy parent. How do you miss your kids' report cards entirely for WEEKS??? That's Just Lazy.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: youngatheart]
      #772274 - 12/28/11 03:46 PM

It's pretty unavoidable, the discussions. For a while, EVERY day I was getting dd, hysterical, over something this other girl did. Obviously they had to explain to me what was going on. What were they supposed to say? Oh, no reason your daughter is hysterically crying in a corner. Oh why'd she mention so and so's name? No idea. I mean fvck the kid's SISTER can't wait to rat her out to me the second I walk through the door. I mean what do you want?

We all know each other, we've all been going through years of preschool now all together.. it is what it is. And again, if dd caused a problem with another child? I'd expect them to discuss it with the other parent. It actually annoys me when they don't. DD got bitten in her daycare in NY. They "won't" tell you.. okay, well dd's telling me before we're even out the door. Soooo you're hiding what? Then the SAME child bit two OTHER children (which, by the way, was a violation of daycare policy).. OHhhh we won't discuss that. No? Sooo, there's a kid who is violent, biting other kids, violating policy but you won't discuss it? Soooo, the safety of the other children means????

Privacy schmivacy. My kid's causing issue/is a danger? Tell whoever you want, PLEASE DO!

But, I'm also the type of parent that is totally open before I step in the door. When I enrolled dd here, they knew ALL about her behavioral stuff, ALL about the medical stuff.. EVERYTHING. I don't hide anything, I don't sugarcoat it, I'd rather you know than not know so you have no surprises. I'd be the first person to say "YUP, my kid's got ISSUES.. " and here's the index card listing them. Wanna hand them out to other parents? Be my guest.

I'm not very typical :)

Most people are way too busy DENYING their kids have issues. "Not MY kid!". yeah yeah whatever.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772275 - 12/28/11 03:47 PM

There is still NO EXCUSE for a 40-somthing year old woman to make a 5/6 year old child cry especially at school. EVER.

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772276 - 12/28/11 03:49 PM

You think what you did was acceptable. That is fine.

But, I don't. BUt, don't throw it out for debate if you don't want to hear other folks side of things.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772277 - 12/28/11 04:02 PM

I expect daycare personnel to behave professionally. That means NOT calling a child names or running him/her down to others, which you've made clear has happened. Yes, I'd pull my kid for that kind of gossip, even if it wasn't my kid they were talking about.

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772279 - 12/28/11 04:08 PM

All I can say if I was the mother of the taker back kid...I would be marching her butt over to your house and she would be handing the toy back. Then be grounded for about a month or so....

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: youngatheart]
      #772280 - 12/28/11 04:22 PM

You know, usually I find the approach you take with kids pretty realistic, but this one makes me cringe just a bit. No, I've no experience with disciplining little girls, let alone the specific kid in your situation, but you put it out here right? So for an off-the-cuff totally objective stranger in the street response?

It seems like you're way too responsible for this other child's discipline. The other mother has a screw loose if she's surrendering her responsibility to others, but if you're so willing to step up and do it for her, why should she bother? I guess an involved mother would take exception to your speaking to her child like that, but then an involved mother wouldn't provide you an opportunity to do it either.

If I were you I'd make sure Other Mother knows in no uncertain terms that you expect her to step up or stay home. No more coming over and playing lump on a log while you teach her child manners. No more letting little Miss Sociopath in Training cause drama with your child that you have to manage.

Cut out the drama by changing the status-quo.

ETA: Quick-replied. This is of course directed to LB not YAH.

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Edited by javajunkiee (12/28/11 04:23 PM)


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LeAnne]
      #772282 - 12/28/11 04:30 PM

But, really, isn't there some blame on PMs family for bringing the gift back to the little girl.

I like the idea of donating it to Goodwill or the Salvation Army. Plus, never exchanging gifts with this family again.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: youngatheart]
      #772283 - 12/28/11 04:33 PM

I would also pull my kid out of the VERY unprofessional after school program for thinking it okay to talk about a child to someone who is not his/her parent.

Call it what you will but every teacher or daycare teacher does it. Maybe not to a parent in the child's class but they DO talk about kids. Especially the mean ones. and they do NOT always know who is standing there. I worked at a school for awhile and one of the teachers was in the lounge going off about the worst kid in her class, what a hellion he was and how he didn't listen to a word. Guess who was a substitute teacher that day and sitting right behind her? Yep his mother. They were the most unprofessional group of people you'd ever want to meet. My xh? Also a teacher and again all he and his co-workers did was complain about which kids they hated. I'm thinking you better be prepared to pull your kid out of every school they are ever in because if the teachers haven't talked about your kids they have talked about others in their class.

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: javajunkiee]
      #772284 - 12/28/11 04:43 PM

I would agree...this one would have likely set me on fire..had it been my kid...

That said..MY kid wouldn't have acted in this manner..and I would assume that PM would have known what kind of mother I was and brought it to me when the child went against my wishes.

THAT said...I agree with her stance that something needed to be said to the child...And I agree with handling it in the moment....given the non parenting ability of the childs mother, I may/may not have taken the same action...oh hell..I probably would have.

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Debi]
      #772285 - 12/28/11 04:56 PM

No, not every teacher and daycare worker does. I sure as hell didnt, and I didn't allow it from our teachers.

My kids school has a strict policy of not discussing kids in the halls or common areas BECAUSE you never know who is there. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. The two teachers I had the issue with...again, wasn't my child, were both fired. I have no problem fighting that battle for kids.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: youngatheart]
      #772287 - 12/28/11 05:42 PM

I agree with Debi, happens way more than you apparently think it does.

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772288 - 12/28/11 05:46 PM

Absolutely; however, you're way overdramatizing the the girl's reaction AND how I handled her.

Which is fine, you tend to do that and that's cool. You overreact to your own situation all the time, as many have pointed out to you. It's cool :) I understand what you're saying, at it's core.. I disagree and that's fine :)


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SRS
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772289 - 12/28/11 05:49 PM

You had an argument with a 5 year old. Admitted making her have tears in her eyes. Admitted to letting her know she's low on your shyt list.

She's 5 and you are 40-ish.

Who's overreacting?


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772290 - 12/28/11 05:56 PM

Question: As a parent, do you ALLOW the gift recipient to RETURN the gift to the child who gave it?

---> Given the blackmail attached...NO. I would then donate the gift.

If you DO allow it, do you address the issue with the gift giving child at all?

---> I would address the issue the issue with the other parent regardless. I would also make it a point to keep my kid away from the other kid.

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Cassie23
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772291 - 12/28/11 05:58 PM

I think happens a lot in that age group. I remember when my child was in kindergarten- I saw a kid throw a fit. He was running around and acting downright rude to everyone. I often volunteered for the class and he tried to stab me with a pencil. The teacher was always explaining to the other parents that he was a problem child. That he was just plain mean and he was. I remember that being the case for those first few years (kindergarten-3rd grade). I'm pretty sure his parents knew he was "mean" and that his teachers and students considered him such.

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: javajunkiee]
      #772292 - 12/28/11 06:19 PM

[quote]You know, usually I find the approach you take with kids pretty realistic,

----------->> thank you :)

but this one makes me cringe just a bit. No, I've no experience with disciplining little girls, let alone the specific kid in your situation, but you put it out here right?

----------->> Absolutely...

It seems like you're way too responsible for this other child's discipline. The other mother has a screw loose if she's surrendering her responsibility to others, but if you're so willing to step up and do it for her, why should she bother? I guess an involved mother would take exception to your speaking to her child like that, but then an involved mother wouldn't provide you an opportunity to do it either.

-------------->>>> The girls are together every day, 9 hours a day, 5 days a week. At one point, we were having playdates EVERY night after aftercare. They've been here often, we've gone to play centers, zoos, etc. I'm around them a LOT. They've been here swimming. The list is pretty long.

I'm a take charge parent with dd. And it tends to just be that way with everyone's kids. I'm the mom with alcohol wipes and neosporin and band-aids in my purse. I'm the mom that when a mom yells "STOP! Don't do ______" they ALL LISTEN. Anyway, on one of our earliest playdates one of her daughters, who has definitive "issues" stuck herself somewhere in a huge playplace, wouldn't come out. Her mother tried her sister tried, dd tried. Wouldn't come out. I offered to climb up and get her down. So I climbed up, had a talk with her, she came down happy as a clam. That child just responds to me. I'm like a 2nd mother? I just handle her EXACTLY like dd and it works like a charm. When the three of them are together, we have 2...tempermental.. children. Who I can handle with little to no problem. So I do. Third one gets the same treatment. Just how it is.

No, the mother isn't overly in control. I suspect she drinks pretty heavily to be honest. She had no idea this weekend that report cards came out weeks ago. How do you have no idea with THREE children in the same school district, two in the same school? Obviously, not overly involved. Lots of hiring sitters to go out to drink/find men. Get the picture?

If I were you I'd make sure Other Mother knows in no uncertain terms that you expect her to step up or stay home. No more coming over and playing lump on a log while you teach her child manners. No more letting little Miss Sociopath in Training cause drama with your child that you have to manage.

------------>>> She's not going to step up per se. Just not going to happen. She's said, flat out, she can't handle 3 kids. She's at her wit's end, etc. At one point, she sounded downright suicidal. And there are multiple kids involved. One is a set that just goes together you know? You invite one? The other has to come, that's just the way it rolls. We HAVE discussed separating her two, and just having dd associate with the "good" one. But that isn't easy and presents its own set of issues.


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spinnerdegrassi
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772293 - 12/28/11 06:24 PM

I would teach your daughter how to beat up the other kid, and when she's finished to stand over her and go " Here's your present back Biyatch!!!, and toss it down on her"

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772294 - 12/28/11 06:29 PM

What argument? I made a statement. Took about 1 minute, if that. And she knew she was on my shyt list from the look on my face, I didn't have to SAY she was on my list, she KNOWS. Again, this isn't my first time at the discipline rodeo with this little girl. She's well aware of my tone of voice, my face, what my expressions are. Even if she didn't know it from HER, she'd know it from MY child, who yup, cries whenever she gets in trouble from me. Absolutely.

Can't be TOO terrible, SRS. Just leaving the supermarket tonight a mom with her probably 7 or 8 year old son was behind us.. We'd seen them throughout the store. And dd and I have a pretty constant dialogue in some way, shape or form. She's a chatty kid.. very animated.. very entertaining. Anyway, the mother said to her son "See? THAT little girl knows how to BEHAVE!" She's extremely kind, conscientious and caring. Everyone remarks on that too. Soo, however "mean" I am (and what you're labeling as mean, is how I deal with my OWN CHILD EVERY DAY)? It WORKS.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772295 - 12/28/11 06:33 PM

I hear what you're saying LB. Its just that, from the outside? It seems like it's just way too much... "stuff"... to have these people this ingrained in yours and your DDs life.

I'm never one to walk away from a hard relationship just because it's work, but damn. The level of work required to keep the insanity at bay in this one sends my Hayll NO meter through the roof. Life is far too short.

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: javajunkiee]
      #772297 - 12/28/11 06:55 PM

After reading thru this I am just so happy I have boys. I have never had to deal with this type of drama. Boys punch each other in the face and are friends 5 minutes later. Girls play manipulative, emotional mind games in order to psychologically torture one another. Unfortunately for some it starts young, and it seems the little girl in question likes to manipulate "her friends".

I would totally limit outside contact with this child. I cannot stand mean girls. There is a girl in my son's grade that is not allowed in my home because she is the meanest, nastiest, mean girl I have ever seen in my life. She is a very, very toxic 16 year old that has caused so much drama, and her parents this she is an angel and that it is everyone else's fault she gets in trouble.

Aren't your kids on holiday break, or is this a daycare place?

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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772298 - 12/28/11 06:56 PM

LB, you need to do something about your DD finding friends that need to be 'fixed'. This is not healthy and cause a lot of problems in her future especially with boyfriends.

Now is the time to teach your DD about friendships and what is acceptable and what is not. The behavior of the other child is unacceptable and if you keep allowing this and allowing your DD to make poor choices in friendships now it will continue.

You may not be able to stop the friendship at school but if you keep allowing this child over after school than you are giving your approval. At this age if your DD starts to play with other friends than your DD may not want to be around this girl in the classroom and play with the other children she is playing with afterschool. Not sure I would of said anything to the little girl at this age, I most cerently would of said something to the parent.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: javajunkiee]
      #772300 - 12/28/11 07:20 PM

Yeah I know... I have cut back a LOT! once school started I cut back some. But we were still having playdates at least once a week. We haven't had one now in weeks. Christmas was the first one.

Now, I will also say... when my dad had his surgery and I needed someone to watch dd? It was HER who added dd to her brood (so picking up FOUR kids) at night. I know she'd do whatever she could, however she could, if I needed her for something. When her father died recently, whatever she needed from me, I would have done. Happened to be school event stuff.

I feel bad for the whole situation. We've just talked. She wasn't aware. Her daughter said NOTHING about it. And she hadn't checked her backpack yet. She said she's "so overwhelmed". She's not upset at all. I told her I thought the child might be upset with me/upset and her exact words were "she doesn't feel too bad about too much, she takes after her dad", amongst other things.. She also said not to worry about me saying anything, she's glad I did and that she "needs all the help I can get".

She will speak to her daughter.. she's NOT happy that she asked for it back, said it was "rude" and she had no idea.. she thought the issue was settled Christmas night.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Tweeby]
      #772301 - 12/28/11 07:36 PM

Hey Tweeby :)

I have greatly limited the relationship, just not entirely.. and I have a reason for that. My daughter is the type of personality who doesn't deal well with mandates necessarily. Now, I've gotten around that/past that on many things.

However, with relationships and I think this is VERY important, having NOT learned this skill myself and knowing, very well, that she's absolutely my personality and absolutely repeating "me".. that she MUST learn to recognize these relationships and to END them on her OWN.

She's getting better and with each relationship, she realizes more. Today, she recognizes that the little girl (nanny's kid) that bit her in the head? Not a nice kid. She already knows that the last "BFF" wasn't good for her and SHE, ultimately, ended that friendship. I may have curtailed it.. I may have limited the playdates and what happened was, with distance, when she WAS with the girl? She realized more how unhealthy she was. Now, this is a little harder b/c there's no "downtime" other than weekends. They're in class for 6 hours a day together. They sit right next to each other. So she's not miserable ALL the time. .she has good times and bad... so dd is excusing the bad, cuz she's seeing the good too. If there wasn't the school involvement and only the playdates where the child is a megabrat, it'd be different.

She will get there. She IS getting there. Actually, like exSO not working out? Was a great lesson for her. She now can look back and see stuff she didn't see when we were living there. She realizes he was a, her word.. "bully" to me. Which he was. I've tried to help her understand some things.. at her level... kinda relating that to friends. she "gets" it. She knows when people are mean. She's still just in seeing the better side of people and hoping she can fix the bad mode; however, she is learning there is a time to let go. She's just not there yet with these girls. And it IS harder b/c there are TWO girls involved really. They are TWINS. Where one goes, the other goes. And dd is ALSO friends with the twin. Who has actual developmental, and behavioral issues. But who is INFINITELY better than the other one. DD and the one twin, without the "bad" twin? Would probably be just fine. But they're a package deal. And how do you separate them when BOTH girls want to be with dd, but dd really would prefer just one? That's a sucky/rude position to be in too :(

Anyway, dd would tell you, I do NOT approve of the situation. She's very well aware that I would prefer she end the friendship entirely and if that means she loses both well then, oh well. BUT, I also know that if I issue an edict that she can't associate with them? She'll just push harder TO be with them.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772302 - 12/28/11 07:47 PM

I understand about saying no to the relationship especially at school. If you tell them they can't be friends than they will be friends just to show you that you can't control them. I would limit ALL outside of school contact with this family. It is sad that the twins are a package deal, just because they are twins doesn't mean they can't have different friends.

Not to be mean but why would you let your DD go over this this girls home, the Mom said she is overwhelmed with her own kids why add another child to the mix? I understand that she was doing you a favor but is that the environment you want your child to be in?

I do think your giving your DD mixed signals over this friends. On one hand you tell her that it is unacceptabel but yet you allow the behavior and the friend over to your home and allow here to go there. It wasn't until the kids were older and able to call me themselves that I would allow them over to others home who I normally wouldn't approve of. FTR, this was before cell phones being so common.

Reread what YOU wrote about this friend's mother and think is this a place you really want your DD to go to? Sometimes we may be a little too close to see the signs.


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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Miranda]
      #772304 - 12/28/11 08:01 PM

Hey Miranda.. Yes, they are on break, and yes, they are in the same play they do afterschool at, just they are there all day b/c of the school break.

I absolutely DO limit contact, outside of school/afterschool care. And i've considered taking her OUT of afterschool care and putting her somewhere else. But I don't think that "solves" anything you know? And she likes it there, they like her, why should she leave? But yes, I'd prefer they NOT be in afterschool together.

Yes, boys are easier. Most of my friends have boys. Like when we socialize, have parties, dd is usually the only girl. there's maybe one or two, that are older, but all the young ones are boys. girls have way more drama. I actually try to push the boy friendships frankly.


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BeckaLeigh
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: SRS]
      #772307 - 12/28/11 08:39 PM

[quote]You made a kindergartener cry? Was that what you wanted to accomplish? I would be MAD if another Mom made my child cry like that. You would be getting a serious phone call AND I'd talk to the aftercare people to see why you were allowed to speak to my child like that.

If the little girl was causing drama and you felt it was unacceptable, why not just stop the friendship outside of school? Kids switch friends constantly. It wouldn't be a huge deal unless the parents made it into a big deal. [/quote]

While I would be one pissed off momma bear if an adult made my child cry, I would also be very ashamed of myself that my child was that self-centered, selfish, and uncaring of other people's feelings. I am on the fence about this one.

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: BeckaLeigh]
      #772310 - 12/28/11 09:32 PM

SRS is GREATLY exaggerating. She had teary-eyed look. But make no mistake she was NOT SAD. That girl was PISSED. I didn't dress her down in front of a bunch of people. I didn't yell at her or argue with her. I very calmly said a few pretty tame things to her. What's the worst I said? What she did was rude? Umm, that's EXACTLy the word her mother said to me. That I was disappointed in her? Well, I am.

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BeckaLeigh
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772311 - 12/28/11 09:48 PM

See, I wouldn't have this problem because I didn't raise my kids to only care about themselves, so this wouldn't even be an issue. If my child was that self-absorbed, I would likely be an ignorant bint, anyway and this wouldn't be a blip on my radar.

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DedicatedDad
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: BeckaLeigh]
      #772316 - 12/28/11 11:25 PM

Geepers....if you ladies are an accurate representation of the female gender as a whole...I'm never getting married again.

If I ever get the inkling, I'll just come back and read this thread...it will guarantee I remain single.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Tweeby]
      #772318 - 12/28/11 11:45 PM

Hi Tweeby, didn't see this reply before sorry!

We've been to their house... Twice. She's been there once without me, for two hours. My father had had triple bypass.. Having her watch dd was the best option. I wasn't thrilled with it but I needed to do it. Is what it is.

I think I'm pretty clear, and brutally blunt, about my feelings with dd. she knows I don't think the friendship is healthy. I've stopped playdates for the most part. Again, Christmas was an exception. It was the holidays, it would be quick. And I would, and didn't, tolerate drama. Day to day, she knows I expect her to stay away from the girl or I really don't wanna hear it. I've told her how to handle it. If she chooses NOT to? She lives with the consequences. What I say does stick. A couple of teachers have made a point of telling me how well dd tries to manage the situations. But as I said. This isn't a girl who responds... So I will listen to that. She's done what I suggest, it's not working (even though it should) okay, let's discuss options. First one on my list is to stop being friends with her... Just stay away. Beyond that, she can only control her reactions and we are working on that. But no, I won't tell her she can't be friends with the kid. Not now. The situation has the side perk of being a fantastic teaching/learning experience for dd. and she's done extremely well. I will, after this year, be requesting that dd not be in class with EITHER of the sisters. That I will do.


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BeckaLeigh
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #772319 - 12/29/11 12:01 AM

Because we don't want our children to turn out selfish, self-absorbed and uncaring about anyone's feelings but their own?

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Goodmom
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772326 - 12/29/11 06:10 AM

I would let her give the gift back.

I also would never have the rude child over again or let my child go over there. They would only be "friends" at school.


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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772331 - 12/29/11 07:49 AM

Anyway, I'm REALLLYYYY trying to get her out of this "fixer friends" bit. We know.. or at least I know.. where that leads.. don't want to see her go there. At any level.
_____________________________

I would too LB. That is a wonderful trait in a person, to desire to help and 'fix' others. But you're right, it leads to negative consequences in most fixer upper situations.


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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: javajunkiee]
      #772333 - 12/29/11 07:56 AM

It seems like you're way too responsible for this other child's discipline. The other mother has a screw loose if she's surrendering her responsibility to others, but if you're so willing to step up and do it for her, why should she bother? I guess an involved mother would take exception to your speaking to her child like that, but then an involved mother wouldn't provide you an opportunity to do it either.
_______________________

I do agree here JJ. I see a fixer upper in LB too. She wants to be an example to someone, show them the way it could work...but at a point it becomes more toxic. I think you're there LB.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: ssmom79]
      #772336 - 12/29/11 08:17 AM

[quote]It seems like you're way too responsible for this other child's discipline. The other mother has a screw loose if she's surrendering her responsibility to others, but if you're so willing to step up and do it for her, why should she bother? I guess an involved mother would take exception to your speaking to her child like that, but then an involved mother wouldn't provide you an opportunity to do it either.
_______________________

I do agree here JJ. I see a fixer upper in LB too. She wants to be an example to someone, show them the way it could work...but at a point it becomes more toxic. I think you're there LB. [/quote]

------------>> Ohhh abso-LUTELY!!! I'm the poster girl for fixer-upping, ROFL!! One of the reasons I'm sooo conscious of it in dd ;) She's getting there. She's struggling with what most "fixer-uppers" do.. they see "good" in someone. they're not "always" bad. She does have good times/fun with the girl but what she doesn't **quite** realize yet is that those good times usually come with some price.. it's not.. real? Meaning they have fun only if dd complies. Now that's NOT to say dd is perfect, lord knows she's got her own issues but she actually KNOWS she has/had issues. She's very well aware when the "bee" in her head isn't behaving. And as she says, she gets better/older every day (yes, she's extremely aware for a child her age.. and extremely.. well versed/eloquent.. she's pretty amazing). She just thinks other kids' "bees" will behave eventually like hers and she thinks she can help them get to where she is.

With the mother, I'm not trying to "fix" her. She watches what I do I guess but I'm not doing it with the specific purpose of trying to get her to get it, if that makes sense. It's really born out of MY kid and managing HER. But yeah, I'm kinda the "den mother". If there's a group of 10 kids playing and 5 parents standing around, I'm the parent who is interacting, supervising, and it's rare a kid doesn't listen to/obey me. DD thinks it's funny/impressive. She's been awed a few times and it's been good actually b/c it seems to have reinforced my position with her. She was jealous for a little bit there.. the kids at daycare/afterschool will run up "Miss Dawn, Miss Dawn" and I dispense hugs and kisses and they're happy. It's just kinda funny. for the record? I'm not a kid person.. at least I don't think so. But apparently I'm extremely good with them? I still don't particularly like kids as far as I'm concerned, lol... but whatever works ;)

Anyway, she will get there. She's working her way through it in her head. We talked about it again this morning, she brought it up.


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DedicatedDad
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: BeckaLeigh]
      #772348 - 12/29/11 10:19 AM

"Because we don't want our children to turn out selfish, self-absorbed and uncaring about anyone's feelings but their own?"

That's an interesting statement....because it seems many of the posters here fit your description very well. I work in a hospital where the "cackling hens and roosters" are far more common than other jobs I've had....but it doesn't compare to here. This place could provide a case study.


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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #772351 - 12/29/11 10:34 AM

People like that are EVERYWHERE.

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DedicatedDad
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: ssmom79]
      #772356 - 12/29/11 11:29 AM

Maybe you are right....I distance myself from those that are self-serving so I may be a bit naive.

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #772358 - 12/29/11 11:34 AM

I find this is the norm.

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gr8Dad
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772359 - 12/29/11 11:34 AM

So, what WAS the gift? I mean was it something sentimental, or what? Price range, etc?

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Loretta
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: gr8Dad]
      #772361 - 12/29/11 11:46 AM

Cassie, I am sad to read about the child who was deemed mean by the teacher and that she told people that. My son could have easily been labeled mean (and was by a lot of people). He was far from mean, he was a total love bug. What he did have was ADHD. He couldn't think through consequences. Once he was diagnosed??? He became the sweetheart he was. He couldn't control himself. He pushed a little girl in a puddle who was tying her shoe. Yes, it wasn't nice, but he couldn't comprehend that she'd get wet if he did that. The opportunity was there, so he did it. Thank goodness he had a wonderful 2 grade teacher. I was happy the he got her again in 4th, she requested him.

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Cassie23
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Loretta]
      #772363 - 12/29/11 11:59 AM

This boy BTW had a complete turn around after some counseling, his father abandoned him young. His mother remarried and they had a child together, I think he was acting out. Apparently now he is an ANGEL!

He was mean, I mean everything he did- he seem to do with the INTENT to hurt someone. Having been around children all my life, I could tell the difference. Now my nephew- he is another story. He has done some things I cannot even speak of, but he has a good heart. He is VERY impressionable and tries so hard to PLEASE people that he has gotten in trouble when doing so. He had a TOUGH life- his parents suck, TBH, and I think he acts out FOR attention.

Regardless, I agree with you on so many levels. However, I am glad the teacher told me so I could be EXTRA attentive around him. He didn't seem to have many friends (surely due to his behavior), but we tried to include him so that he wouldn't feel isolated by his peers. Yet the professional counseling was needed.


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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: DedicatedDad]
      #772379 - 12/29/11 01:40 PM

My SK's mom is often the epitome of self serving, selfish and greedy. Sometimes I'm blinded by my own experience. Hopefully I'm wrong!

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: gr8Dad]
      #772380 - 12/29/11 01:41 PM

Price range? $0.

Item: Pinwheel

Source: Unsure, but no sentimental value that I can ascertain.

The child asked for it back an hour or so after it was given. No reason, other than she WANTED it. End of story.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Loretta]
      #772381 - 12/29/11 02:02 PM

Just to clarify, this girl clearly KNOWS the the consequences of her actions. And she's smart enough not to do anything physically overt. She's not a "push you into the puddle" kind of kid. She's a manipulator/conniver. Has an extreme control issue. Has to control EVERYTHING. Definitely me, me, me.. to an extreme though.

As I said before, I deal with her All.The.Time. She does battle with me regularly over what SHE wants. CONSTANTLY trying to get me to give her what she wants. Extremely emotionally manipulative of other children. The "well, if you don't do {whatever}, I'm not your friend". The "I don't care" thing is a big one for her.

I think I said it before but if not, I'll say it again, it's in her EYES. Like, I can look in her sister's eyes, and I've heard that child, in the heat of anger/frustration, spew out stuff **I** wouldn't even say and you guys knows my language is REALLY bad. I was FLOORED. BUT.. BUT BUT BUT.. I look in THAT child's eyes? And I see a soul. She has ACTUAL issues. She's NOT a bad or MEAN kid. Just the opposite, she's a doll. She just gets into a certain emotional zone and there's zero control. She's come a LONG way since I first met her almost 2 years ago.

Her sister? There's NOTHING THERE. It's void. Vacant. There's zero recognition. Nothing. I've seen her sneak/connive and watch her walk away.. appearing contrite and then it comes.. the smirk. Looks JUST like Damien in the Omen. I honestly envision her as the type of kid who, at 15 when her mother says she can't go out with such and such boy, she'll sneak into the kitchen at night, grab a knife and stab her mother to death. And when asked why she'll say "Wellll, I WANTED TO SEE MY BOYFRIEND AND SHE WOULDN'T LET ME.. What else was I supposed to do?" Insert downturned face, pouty lips, batting eyelashes.. and as soon as you look away, there's the smirk and the eyes light up.


She's just a BAD KID.


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ssmom79
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772383 - 12/29/11 02:23 PM

There are ways that we as parents can influence who our children choose as friends and I would be focusing my kid on some other friend than some devil spawn.

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onerose
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772384 - 12/29/11 02:32 PM

I can see doing what you did. It would be different if this was some random kid on the playground. But it sounds like you know the mom and kid pretty good. I probably would have went to the mom, but see no wrong in going to the kid in this situation.

I would use this opportunity to let your child know how wrong it was of that other kid and try to keep them apart as much as you can. She sounds like a bad seed.


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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: ssmom79]
      #772387 - 12/29/11 02:49 PM

I know... and I do try... As i said, this is the first outside of school interaction since mid-October. So it's been 2 1/2 months. I wouldn't call that necessarily strongly encouraging a relationship. No, it wasn't an absolute no, but.. spirit of Christmas, yadda yadda and all that jazz ;)

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Loretta
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772391 - 12/29/11 03:18 PM

Truth is? I'd probably have done the exact same thing in your shoes. However....I would have immediately wished I hadn't. Hindsight being 20/20 and all.

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Loretta]
      #772392 - 12/29/11 03:32 PM

Yeahhhh, can't say I disagree with that Loretta, lol. Can't say I disagree with that at all.. at least in terms of allowing the visit. I have ZERO regrets and don't wish I could take back what I said to the child. Not at all. The other parent and I have discussed it, she's totally on board/okay with what I said, how I said it, where I said it etc. It's all good.

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Loretta
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772406 - 12/29/11 07:26 PM

I have pretty big mommy claws. (:

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LexieBelle
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: Loretta]
      #772407 - 12/29/11 09:40 PM

lol.. so do I. This instance was less about dd being upset (which she wasn't frankly.. she was extremely cool about it) it was about the principle of the thing. It's just NOT something you do. But this is the first time I've gone outside of general "playdate parenting" and addressed an issue so specifically/directly, directly with the child.

I've only "mommy claw"ed once before. That was with the LAST little girl dd gravitated/latched herself to. Another one who was rude, self-absorbed.. and she tended to be PHYSICALLY aggressive.. and not just with children.. i watched her literally HANG from a gymnastics instructor's neck.. just swinging. Deathgrip.. poor girl, probably only 17 or 18, could NOT get her hands off her neck. After like 5 minutes, Mom FINALLY went in and dragged her kid off. Can't count how many times I'd be sitting on the floor helping pick up a toy and next thing I knew the kid would be on all fours, on top of my back. always in your face, like dd would be eating and she'd literally be THISCLOSE right in dd's face. I gave her a lot of leeway though.. she was a drug addicted baby when she was born, I'm betting ADHD.. just problems. Anyway, they had issues but the final straw was on a playdate at a BK playplace. Girl was TOTALLY rude to dd. Just beyond rude. DD tried to handle it.. girl was just rude. So dd came to me, totally upset. Mom's sitting right next to me.. not a word. So I calmly suggest dd CALMLY get the girl's attention.. ask her whatever it was (I think to actually wait for dd).. Nope. Ignored her. Okay, no problem. Well, wait a minute, she's running around.. try again in a few minutes. DD fairly calmly waits.. tries again to catch her "friend's" attention.. this time child STOPS, looks right at dd, and laughs and runs off again. That was it. DD came completely unhinged. Now, granted dd is not the fastest kid. She has, still has, some gross motor delays.. still getting up to speed, and we now know, she's asthmatic. the other child, is abnormally fast. Like, throw caution to the wind, don't care if I kill myself.. EVER.. fast. And that's fine, but don't be totally rude about it. SAY you don't want to wait. Whatever. I would have been okay if MOM had said something. Not ONE WORD. Not a peep. After the laughing part I just looked at her and she said, and I quote "well.. it's not MY kid's fault your kid's too [censored] slow". Reallyyyyyy???? Now it's not like this mom isn't WELL aware of dd's history.. and that's your response? The fact I didn't punch her in the face is a miracle to be honest. I've never in my life wanted to deck another human so bad. I very calmly said "True, it's also not my child's fault that she's got some delays and some breathing issues either".. What I got was "oh well.. what do you expect me to do about it?" Again,the overwhelming urge to punch her in the face I managed to control and simply said "well, I'd EXPECT you to not let your daughter to be completely RUDE". When it was HER kid at my daughter's party and she was crying in a corner b/c she didn't know anyone, I was the one dragging my kid away from her friends and saying "ummm, you DO have a friend here who doesn't know anyone.. you need to introduce her around, make her feel comfortable.. right now she's crying in a corner and you're being rude not introducing her to the other people you know" and voila! Dd went and got her, introduced her and all was well. She had a great time, no problem. I just do NOT get how people operate.

I do notice a common thing.. these kids are takers. They're more than happy to have you do stuff for them.. take them places.. whatever.. give them stuff (I can't even count how many clothes I gave away to the first kid..insane amounts of stuff which was fine, I was happy to do it.. stuff didn't fit dd, fit her perfect, HAPPY that it went to someone who could get use out of it) but god forbid you expect remotely common courtesy? Ohhhh nooooooo.

Anyway, the same process happneed with that girl. We stopped playdates after that..After a few months I agreed to one.. against my better judgement and I told dd so but she, again, knew my feelings, and "got it". She was going to give it ONE more try and if it was the same type deal, she would be done. And she did.. and it was the same type deal and dd got up.. took me into another room and said 'can we go now, you were right.. I can't be friends with her, she'll never be nice to me" and we've never spoken to them again. That situation was easier b/c they didn't go to a daycare/prek together.. they were never going to be in school together so there wasn't that constant interaction.

Ex and I talk about the situation a lot, he's well aware. He agrees that i should ask the school to not place dd in EITHER of the girls' classes next year. Shouldn't be that difficult to do, there'll be at LEAST 4 first grade classes.

I also learned tonight that dd HAS tried to stay away from the one girl, but the girl pesters her and then when dd tries to stay away, the girl tattles on her and then dd gets in trouble. The whole "everyone HAS to get along/everyone is 'friends'" nonsense. Umm.. NOOOO, everyone does NOT have to be "friends". They have to be civil and respectful; however, even children are entitled to NOT play with someone if they don't want to. So I'll be addressing that tomorrow morning.


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elliesmom
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Re: OT: Christmas - asking for a gift back (Debate) [Re: LexieBelle]
      #772929 - 01/03/12 05:05 PM

In the same circumstance (lazy absent mom who I had socialized with enough to know her and her kid)...

I probably would have had a long talk with my DD6 to make sure she understood why this girl was NOT her friend and would not be welcome in our home anymore if she took the gift back. And then I would have talked to the girl and explained that since my child would rather give it back than deal with her mean behavior she could have it back. But in light of her decision to behave this way (rude, mean) over a simple gift she would not be a friend who was welcome in our home anymore. I would return at the end of the day with the gift and if she still wanted to be a rude, mean girl she would be welcome to it at that time (or next morning). If she decided to take it back I would let her know I was a disappointed and give it to her. If not, I would praise her for making the right choice. Either way I would probably at ;east not encourage the friendship anymore.

I don't get everyone coming down on you for this. You explained that you knew the mother well enough to know she a. wouldn't care and b. won't do anything about it on her end and c. agreed with you (no takesies backsies). Might as well make an effort to teach the little shyt lesson. And honestly as a mom who would care? I would be SO LIVID at my kid for behaving that way I would make her cry all over again at home and not worry that someone else had already.

--------------------
Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.


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