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despedina
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Can't get ex to help pay for braces.
      #772674 - 01/01/12 10:48 PM

My daughter needs braces badly. She literally has teeth behind teeth due to how they grew in. Our dentist advised braces and this year said that she is ready to get some put on. We are in the process of looking for Orthodontists and researching prices and I advised my ex to please do that same. He responded that braces are like a breast augmentation or like liposuction and optional so if I wanted to do it I was responsible for all costs. Our paperwork specifically notes that "medical expenses" is defined as anything listed under IRS statute 1987 section 213 which I looked up and it does include braces on the list. Also, on our paperwork further down the paperwork it does specifically note "orthodontia". He thinks this means only emergency orthodontia and not "cosmetic procedures" as he calls it. How do I get him to understand braces are covered? Also, I believe my husbands insurance will cover part so that even further reduces the amount he has to cover. I'm thinking about having a lawyer type up a letter putting it in layman's terms for him. Any advice?

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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772676 - 01/01/12 11:04 PM

He is correct. You need to see if the braces are MEDICALLY NECESSARY. If they are not, he is not responsible for the cost.

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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youngatheart
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772678 - 01/01/12 11:14 PM

I would get your dentist to put it in writing as to why it's needed, what the goal is, and what the repercussions are if it is not done.

The first orthodontist we saw did this on the very first visit. He discussed everything with me, then mailed me a report in the mail that states that the goals are, the ESTIMATED timeline, what is expected of the parents and child, etc. The report also discussed what the diagnosis was if braces were not put on.

Sooo....this year, I get to start spending about $10,000-12,000 on my son's teeth. FUN TIMES.

And yes, it's included in what Ex owes half of.

Anyway, I'd start with the report. If he responds unfavorably, I'd have the attorney send a letter. If he still responds unfavorably, I'd file in Court for him to comply.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: youngatheart]
      #772684 - 01/02/12 12:15 AM

Wow I didn't realize this. Our paperwork does not say it has to be an emergency or anything it just says orthodontia and anything listed under IRS 1987 section 213. I guess I will get a report to convince him and we'll go from there.
Also, can someone read this part of how much medical he needs to cover? there is a sentence about me paying the first $100 that I don't quite understand:
"Heath Care Costs: The cost of a health benefit plan covering the children shall be paid by the mother. The parent providing the health benefit plan shall provide the other parent an insurance ID. All health expenses incurred on behalf of the children and not paid by the health benefit plan shall be paid 50% by father and 50% by mother. Unless both parties have agreed to use a health care provider that is not covered by the health plan, if a parent incurs an expense to a provider that is not covered by the plan that would have been covered, or covered at a more favorable rate, if a provider included in the plan had been used, then that parent shall pay 75% and the other parent 25% of the uncovered expenses. Provided however, mother shall pay one hundred percent of the first $100 of health care expenses per year per child. Health care expenses shall be defined in accordance with IRS code (1987) 213....... etc."
What is the $100? Is that just if I pick a provider outside our plan? My daughters insurance is through my husbands job and we pay the premiums out of his check. Thanks for any insight.


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youngatheart
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772687 - 01/02/12 12:33 AM

That means that you are responsible for the first $100 of healthcare expenses (co-pays, prescriptions, ortho, dental, whatever), and then AFTER that first $100, you split the costs 50/50.

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Renny
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772689 - 01/02/12 12:34 AM

He's paying the premiums? At any rate, you are reading the $100 part correctly -- you pay that if the orthodontist is outside the network.

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M5M5
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #772695 - 01/02/12 01:32 AM

Yeah we thought the same thing, and the judge made us pay for half anyway. Mind you, we were not trying to get out of paying half...we were just trying to get them to stagger out the braces (she wanted SD put in braces in Feb, and SS put in braces in May...we wanted SD put in Feb. and SS put in the following Feb...SS could have waited since they weren't even medically necessary). Judge didn't care. BTW, this was in 2007...it is now 1012 and SS still doesn't have braces...she took us to court over..nothing....and wasted a couple thousand on it. Kinda funny! Anyway, point is...if it winds up in court, a judge will probably order them to pay half whether they were medically necessary or not.

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youngatheart
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: M5M5]
      #772696 - 01/02/12 02:19 AM

That is the sucky thing about substantially different finances in different homes. Both of my kids need braces as well, but Son's are more important. Of course, they're also more costly. So, he is getting his first.

Daughter will probably get a retainer after we recover from the initial bleeding of cash on Son. The retainer will at least hold her teeth as they are until we can afford to put the braces on.

If I had a better financial outlook, though, I could put both kids in braces now and demand the money from Ex. Not that I would. As it is...I'm probably going to pay most of Son's braces.


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Renny
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Renny]
      #772709 - 01/02/12 10:14 AM

Correction on my earlier post. On re-reading the clause this morning, the clause "Provided however, mother shall pay one hundred percent of the first $100 of health care expenses per year per child" is not connected to the preceding out-of-network clause. It means, roughly, that in all events, M shall pay that first $100.

I'm surprised the ex-H hasn't insisted on the mother obtaining medical coverage per the CO. There apparently is some degree of cooperation.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Renny]
      #772710 - 01/02/12 10:30 AM

I'm not sure it matters to anyone whether I or my husband has the insurance on my daughter. I have insurance available to me but my husband gets much better rates because he works for a larger company. My ex doesn't care as long as he does not have to have insurance on her. Maybe I was unclear - my daughters step father (my current husband) has the insurance on my daughter. Ex never has.
So does the $100 mean premiums also? Also it doesn't say "un covered medical expenses" so that's why I thought it meant for out of network providers. I have a friend that is a lawyer and I think I'm going to have him read over it. Sometimes I think courts make this stuff confusing so that families argue over it and go back to court!


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hanzblinx
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772713 - 01/02/12 11:03 AM

Considering I'm paying $1500/month child support plus all health insurance costs I would tell my ex to pound sand if she wanted more on top of that for ortho. Take it out of the child support, that's what it's there for ladies. If women would stop blowing CS checks on themselves there would be plenty for the kid.

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youngatheart
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: hanzblinx]
      #772719 - 01/02/12 12:26 PM

In most cases, that is NOT what the child support is full, which is why MOST divorce decrees include a clause that the parents split medical, dental, vision, psychological and orthodontic bills.

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M5M5
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: youngatheart]
      #772726 - 01/02/12 02:21 PM

Well, you know at that time, BM had came into millions via her husband's lawsuit (otherwise, they roughly make the same...actually less now...than DH) and was doing everything possible to stick it to us, financially. I think (hope) our situation was rare.

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Renny
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772746 - 01/02/12 06:13 PM

The $100 refers to the expenses, not the premiums.

It's poorly drafted. Why specify tgt M will pay "100%" of the first $100? This was probably an inexperienced paralegal or mediator who drafted it.


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Renny]
      #772757 - 01/02/12 06:48 PM

"It's poorly drafted. Why specify tgt M will pay "100%" of the first $100? This was probably an inexperienced paralegal or mediator who drafted it. "

To clarify, since rest of the paragraph speaks of division of expenses by percentages. The first $100 of healthcare expenses a year are considered to be covered by cs, anything over that is to be split as directed.

OP... ask the orthodontist to put the treatment plan in writing, including the reason he is recommending braces. While it sounds like your ex will need to pay regardless, maybe he will understand the importance of the treatment and get on board. If the ortho is in network, your ex will be responsible for 50% of unreimbursed medical expenses, if the ortho is out of network your ex will be responsible for 25%. If this is the first medical treatment of the year for the child, subtract your $100 before applying the percentages.


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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772765 - 01/02/12 07:27 PM

My husband's CO had a similar clause.

You are to cover the insurance premiums. You pay the 1st $100 of medical payments per year. After that $100 you split the rest of medical that IS from a provider of the insurance 50/50.

Next is if you go to an out of network provider. If you both agree than it is 50/50. If you want an out of network but he disagrees than your pay 75% of the cost after the insurance pays, he pays 25%. If he insists on having an out of network provider than he pays the 75% and you pay 25%. The out of network provider usually has more costs that the insurance doesn't cover.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772771 - 01/02/12 08:20 PM

Thanks for all the insight. The paperwork we have is the basic parenting plan for Missouri which I understand all parenting plans are based on. There is space on the form to add any additional or make changes to the basic plan. The wording I typed was the standard form with no changes. I really think I need to get my lawyer friend put the whole section in layman's terms for all our benefits. My ex did ask for a report on the need for braces so I will get that also although I think its just a stall tactic on his part based on past experiences. I wouldn't be shelling out my part for braces if I didn't think the need was severe enough so we'll see what the ortho says.
Also to the person who said "that's what child support is for", I find it hard to believe that the $316 a month I get is enough for anything much less any medical.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772772 - 01/02/12 08:33 PM

Interesting, first you said he said no to braces, now you say he asked for a report as to whether they are needed. Dollars to donuts, you told him to pay, he said he wanted a report, you said no, so he said no.

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #772778 - 01/02/12 08:54 PM

I never said he could not have a report! He said a bunch of things. His last texts I ignored because it was mainly him being unnecessarily mean and off subject but it did say in there he wants a "letter from her dentist saying the braces are medically necessary". Which I take to mean the report everyone is referring to here.
It is not like I am taking the money he will be putting out for myself. I really wish she didn't need the braces because I was up all night last night trying to figure out how we'd pay for it on our own and wondering how much insurance will cover (which my husband will find out tomorrow). It has been very quiet with my ex these last few years and it seemed he was getting more reasonable to deal with but in the last couple of months for some reason he's becoming a raving jerk everytime I have a simple thing to say to him. My husband actually brought up the subject tentatively about braces being a possibility about 2 mos ago and he only nodded and said okay and to let him know. Now he sends me a bunch of rude texts when I only ask for a time to discuss it with him. I guess he couldn't state anything to our faces.

Edited by despedina (01/02/12 08:54 PM)


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #772786 - 01/02/12 10:10 PM

Exactly. You said it was a possibility, he said let him know. He wants something saying it is medically needed. You seem to think he should just agree and pay whatever you want. Tell me, if he said the child needed something medical done, would you agree to pay with NO further info? Of course not, so why should he?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773344 - 01/07/12 01:23 PM

Well Gr8dad I wish it was that simple. I'm going to get a report (in fact I called the dentist's office to ask for something in writing and we'll get something from the orthodontist also). I also had my lawyer friend look over my paperwork and he put the entire medical portion in layman's terms and wrote a letter to my ex so he can no longer interpret whatever way he wants.
Him asking for a report was only one sentence part of him saying he's not going to pay, its cosmetic surgery, etc. Basically he wanted me to drop the subject.
Once I get all the info is it too much to ask him for a time to sit down and discuss? He's nothing but rude via text and I'm sorry for texting him in the first place to ask for a time to discuss. He's not nearly as insulting to your face, and I feel this is something that needs to be discussed seriously.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773352 - 01/07/12 07:29 PM

Now, I have to ask, are you REALLY interested in discussing with him, or are you just going to tell him he has to pay?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773356 - 01/07/12 09:44 PM

Honestly I'm open to suggestions. Bottom line he is required to help pay. I don't want to argue about it. I don't want to turn it into a pizzing contest. I won't be having the conversation with him until after we see the orthodontist on the 25th. I don't see sending text or handing a letter to him and walking away (or mailing it) as productive.

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youngatheart
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773358 - 01/07/12 09:55 PM

Either the kid needs braces or not. If the kid needs braces, both parents need to pay their part. There's really not much to talk about.

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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: youngatheart]
      #773359 - 01/07/12 10:41 PM

Well I was just going to just share the dentist's and ortho's reports and discuss the cost. I fear that if I just give him papers he will pitch them (that's what he's done in the past with any other medical bills). Also, there may be times during his longer summer visitations when he needs to take her to the ortho.

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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: youngatheart]
      #773373 - 01/08/12 10:06 AM

There is a difference between the kid needs braces to straighten teeth, and the kid needs braces for MEDICAL reasons. And is Dad CAPABLE of paying for them?

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773392 - 01/08/12 07:32 PM

I will have a report for on them, and I don't know his financial situation so that's not a question I can answer. He does have a job. How much he makes or savings etc is not my business. I can tell you after insurance and the discounts we've been able to work out his half would be $600. Pretty good deal if you ask me and I'm not asking it be paid all at once of course.

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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773402 - 01/08/12 09:07 PM

Well, how much he makes is a valid concern. Of he can't afford it, he can't afford.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773404 - 01/08/12 09:25 PM

"I can tell you after insurance and the discounts we've been able to work out his half would be $600. Pretty good deal if you ask me and I'm not asking it be paid all at once of course. "

That is a pretty good deal, $600 dollars for braces, and you're okay with payments. And you're correct, his financial situation is his issue, not yours. Medical bills don't just magically disappear because you can't afford them.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773406 - 01/08/12 09:37 PM

Gr8dad, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. He is ordered by our mutually signed parenting plan to help pay for 1/2 of all uninsured medical costs. It specifically states orthodontist costs. We've made a concerted effort to get the best deal out there to make costs minimal.

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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773435 - 01/09/12 07:08 AM

Half a MEDICALLY needed braces. Keep in mind, RARELY are braces MEDICALLY NEEDED. What will be the MEDICAL outcome if the child does not get them?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773443 - 01/09/12 08:14 AM

"Half a MEDICALLY needed braces. Keep in mind, RARELY are braces MEDICALLY NEEDED. What will be the MEDICAL outcome if the child does not get them? "

You can't just rewrite her court order. According to the OP, braces are included in her court order, she does not need to prove to him medical need beyond a shadow of a doubt. From her description, with the child having teeth growing in behind other teeth, I'm not sure what kind of parent would argue the cost of $600 to fix the issue, especially when the other parent is willing to work with payments.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773445 - 01/09/12 08:26 AM

One that cannot AFFORD it?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773446 - 01/09/12 08:35 AM

"One that cannot AFFORD it? "

How do you know the ncp can't afford it? Do you know how much the ncp makes and what payment arrangement the cp is willing to agree to?


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773447 - 01/09/12 08:59 AM

Nope, just brought up a POSSIBLE reason. When I brought it up to the OP, she said she didn't CARE. Well, if you can't afford something, you can't afford it, life goes on. Never heard of a kid dying from crooked teeth.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773448 - 01/09/12 09:07 AM

"Well, if you can't afford something, you can't afford it, life goes on."
And if he refuses, she can get a judgment against him and ask to have his wages garnished... and life still goes on.

"Never heard of a kid dying from crooked teeth. "
Is that the qualifier now, that if it doesn't cause death, the ncp shouldn't have to help pay?


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773449 - 01/09/12 09:15 AM

Can only garnish wages so far. As for the standard, what OTHER requirement makes something MEDICALLY needed? Are crooked teeth going to make the child sick? Cause pain?

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773451 - 01/09/12 09:26 AM

"Can only garnish wages so far."
Eh, then he will owe it until he pays it.

"As for the standard, what OTHER requirement makes something MEDICALLY needed? Are crooked teeth going to make the child sick? Cause pain? "
I'm not the ortho for the child in question, but as a general answer, yes, they very much can. The braces I put on dd were technically cosmetic at the time, but according to her ortho and dentist, the treatment plan was designed to prevent some major issues down the road. Now, maybe the OP is one of those CPs that wants to shell out money herself, just to stick it to the NCP. Or maybe the kid just needs braces badly. Not that it matters here, the OP's co covers "braces"... and she is willing to work with him on payments, doesn't sound like she is out to screw over the NCP.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773456 - 01/09/12 11:04 AM

"Eh, then he will owe it until he pays it."

Yep, just another way we FVCK the NCP, by generating costs based on the CP's desires, giving them NO say in the matter...then sitting back and wondering why NCP's don't act MORE like "parents".

"The braces I put on dd were technically cosmetic at the time"

Then the NCP should not have had to pay for them because they were NOT "Medically Needed".

"Now, maybe the OP is one of those CPs that wants to shell out money herself, just to stick it to the NCP. Or maybe the kid just needs braces badly. Not that it matters here, the OP's co covers "braces"... and she is willing to work with him on payments, doesn't sound like she is out to screw over the NCP."

And maybe the NCP just CANNOT AFFORD the braces. Of course, THAT doesn't MATTER, because he is a PARENT, and he HAS to pay, BECAUSE he is parent, right? So BECAUSE he is a PARENT, he should have a SAY int he matter...oh, wait, he's not THAT much of a parent, he's just a "Pay what you are told" parent, not a "Have a say in the raising of the child" parent...BAER.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773457 - 01/09/12 11:27 AM

"Yep, just another way we FVCK the NCP, by generating costs based on the CP's desires, giving them NO say in the matter...then sitting back and wondering why NCP's don't act MORE like "parents"."
Dang it, you got me... yup, I always just run up medical bills for my kids to fvck over my ex, it's not like I get to pay for all out of pocket myself first... fyi, for the last 10 years, the only thing I've ever asked ex to help pay was the braces... you'll be happy to know that I've had a change of heart though and will nickle and dime him to death for his 50%.

"Then the NCP should not have had to pay for them because they were NOT "Medically Needed"."
The judge felt differently when he signed off on the judgment.

"And maybe the NCP just CANNOT AFFORD the braces. Of course, THAT doesn't MATTER, because he is a PARENT, and he HAS to pay, BECAUSE he is parent, right? So BECAUSE he is a PARENT, he should have a SAY int he matter...oh, wait, he's not THAT much of a parent, he's just a "Pay what you are told" parent, not a "Have a say in the raising of the child" parent...BAER. "
Hey, I couldn't afford dd's braces either. Guess what, I figured it out. As far as my ex having a say in the matter... I have sole legal, so nope, no requirement. Despite of that... I am co-parenting with him as much as he wants me to, and he has as much say in raising ds as he wants to... which is zero... and no, of course he is not a "pay what you are told" parent, don't be silly. He is a "pay what I can garnish" parent.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773459 - 01/09/12 11:36 AM

"Dang it, you got me... yup, I always just run up medical bills for my kids to fvck over my ex, it's not like I get to pay for all out of pocket myself first... fyi, for the last 10 years, the only thing I've ever asked ex to help pay was the braces... you'll be happy to know that I've had a change of heart though and will nickle and dime him to death for his 50%."

Of course, because, AS USUAL, you completely missed the point. Bottom line, if the CP cannot afford braces, NO ONE forces them to get them put on the child. But if the NCP cannot afford them, oh well, too bad, so sad, get a second job, cause THEY got a COURT ORDER.

Its NOT about MONEY, its about the NCP's removal of BASIC parental rights, and then CHARGING them for the choices of the CP.

"The judge felt differently when he signed off on the judgment."

Sure, it was the JUDGE'S fault (and I will agree that the judge was partially to blame) not YOUR fault, for filing in the FIRST place to have your ex pay for COSMETIC work you had done on the child.

"Hey, I couldn't afford dd's braces either. Guess what, I figured it out."

YOU had a CHOICE. He did NOT.

"As far as my ex having a say in the matter... I have sole legal, so nope, no requirement."

Yet he shoudl ACT like a "full" parent, right?

"Despite of that... I am co-parenting with him as much as he wants me to, and he has as much say in raising ds as he wants to... which is zero..."

Yeah, going to COURT over braces sounds like CO-PARENTING to me. And since you DID have to go to court, I guess he has as much say as he wants...unless he disagrees with YOU< right?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773461 - 01/09/12 11:55 AM

"Of course, because, AS USUAL, you completely missed the point. Bottom line, if the CP cannot afford braces, NO ONE forces them to get them put on the child. But if the NCP cannot afford them, oh well, too bad, so sad, get a second job, cause THEY got a COURT ORDER."
Yes, you did miss the point... I figured out how to pay for what my kid needed at the time. The ncp has the same option.

"Its NOT about MONEY, its about the NCP's removal of BASIC parental rights, and then CHARGING them for the choices of the CP."
Eh, I didn't remove any basic rights he didn't willingly give up. I followed the recommendation of her dentist and orthodontist. Both of which cost money, btw.

"Sure, it was the JUDGE'S fault (and I will agree that the judge was partially to blame) not YOUR fault, for filing in the FIRST place to have your ex pay for COSMETIC work you had done on the child."
You missed it again, where the work done was to prevent more severe work needing to be done later down the road. But yeah, I'm guessing if the judge felt it was a frivolous claim, he would have thrown it out? Not sure, I got a default judgment.

"YOU had a CHOICE. He did NOT."
I had the choice of how I was going to pay for it. He still hasn't paid for it, it was added to his cs arrears lol. But yeah, he is the victim here, it is outrageous, keep fighting the good fight here... **chucklesnort**

"Yet he shoudl ACT like a "full" parent, right?"
Eh, I've given up on him acting like any parent... full, half, quarter, whatever. His choice **shrugs**

"Yeah, going to COURT over braces sounds like CO-PARENTING to me. And since you DID have to go to court, I guess he has as much say as he wants...unless he disagrees with YOU< right? "
Eh, you don't have a clue what I have and haven't done. And no, at this point, he has chosen the option of zero say. If he started to give input again, I'd probably smile and nod at this point... and then do it my way. Not giving a $hit is a wonderful thing.


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773463 - 01/09/12 12:07 PM

Out of curiosity, gr8... how much input does you ex have? Ever scheduled a doctor's appointment without her official okay?

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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773468 - 01/09/12 12:19 PM

My ex has ZERO say. Oh, oh, I see you jumping up and down about how I don't give her any say. Of course, I also do not CHARGE her for things for which she has NO say.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773469 - 01/09/12 12:22 PM

"My ex has ZERO say. Oh, oh, I see you jumping up and down about how I don't give her any say. Of course, I also do not CHARGE her for things for which she has NO say. "

Eh, you're the one who said it's not about the money, it's about the removal of basic parental rights.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Sherron]
      #773472 - 01/09/12 01:01 PM

Exactly, the removal of the RIGHTS, then the claim of RESPONSIBILITY.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773473 - 01/09/12 01:10 PM

I just went through the same thing. My ex knew it was going to be necessary. He was told of every appointment I made, he never bothered to show up. I requested he make an appointment to fit his schedule. He never did. He just kept repeating himself that it was cosmetic and he wasnt paying for it. Well, I went through child support enforcement, I had to pay it first but they collected it from him and sent it to me. I would check into that option.

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Sherron
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: NikkiL]
      #773475 - 01/09/12 01:47 PM

"Exactly, the removal of the RIGHTS, then the claim of RESPONSIBILITY. "

Well, as long as you're okay with the removal of basic parental rights...

Btw... sole legal here, that he agreed to. ;)


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NikkiL
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #773479 - 01/09/12 02:14 PM

OP took kid to the dentist/ortho and was told the child needed braces. OP clearly states her kids teeth did not come in correctly. I know when I take my kids to the doctor, its because I am not one, and I am seeking their advice. Eye doctor recommends glasses I dont ignore that. I get my child glasses. Why would it be any different for teeth? How is following the advice of a doctor taking away someones rights? BS. Im guessing OP's ex can clearly see that his kid needs braces, and is trying to get out of the RESPONSIBILITY of it. He doesnt have that RIGHT.
**edited to add** $600 for braces?? He shouldnt be complaining he should be thanking his lucky stars.

Edited by NikkiL (01/09/12 02:17 PM)


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: NikkiL]
      #773505 - 01/09/12 06:42 PM

Gr8dad - I don't know your personal situation, but you just sound like a bitter ncp. My ex and I both signed our parenting plan. In fact, its the basic MO state parenting plan with little changed. The medical portion is not changed at all from the standard. If he didn't read it and signed it, is that my fault? Not only that he signed it twice - our orig parenting plan was poorly written, so when I took him back a year and a half later because he claimed he couldn't "afford" child support and hadn't paid anything, the judge insisted that the standard MO parenting plan be used. In both plans it stated orthodontist care was to be covered 50/50 by both parties. And it does not say anywhere it has to be medically necessary whatever that means. Its not like I volunteered her to have braces for fun.
I have asked my ex for very little. I only ask that he pay his CS (which the state has to garnish because he couldn't pay it on his own) and that he pay his part of medical (which he does not pay btw unless he feels like it and lets it add up over YEARS). I don't ask for any extracurriculars or any other costs a kid normally has from time to time. In fact, he has come to my door to pick up DD bragging about the new wheels on his truck or how he just bought a truckload of fireworks for Independence day or how he's bought the newest smart phone. And I just grin and nod because if I don't I might lose my mind. And I only get $316 a month in CS. So please tell me how I'm trying to stick something to him or how he probably can't afford it. If you ask me, he could very possibly be trying to stick it to me because he knows no one will enforce the medical part.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773506 - 01/09/12 06:44 PM

NikkiL how did you get child support enforcement to garnish medical? I also have built up medical expenses. It does not seem as cut and dried because I'm sure I'd have to provide receipts. Not sure how to go about doing that.

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Pops_IL_CP_Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773517 - 01/09/12 08:02 PM

despedina -- Child Support Enforcement doesn't have to file a notice to withhold income for medical. You can do this yourself if you obtain a judgment from the court for the balance owed. Do you have a court order which states that your ex is responsible for 50% (or whatever)?

If so, and if he hasn't paid, file for contempt and ask the court for a payment plan. When he doesn't pay as ordered, file a notice to withhold income. Your court clerk should have all the forms required.

This assumes, of course, that you have furnished your ex in a timely manner all of the documentation required--actual bills (not payment receipts) and a statement of benefits from your insurance company showing the balance due to the provider AND that you have sent by certified mail, return receipt, several requests for reimbursement.

--------------------
Focus on what is legally relevant, not morally indignant or petty.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Pops_IL_CP_Dad]
      #773529 - 01/09/12 09:10 PM

Well I have given him copies of the actual Bills - I believe all the bills noted that it was the amount that was Patient responsibility after insurance or noted that it was a copay. I do have a court order that ex is responsible for 50% of uninsured medical. I have not done the certified mail thing, I have just given him copies of the bills and sent him a running "invoice" every couple of months that lists how much he owes me. It would not be a big deal to send a certified letter to be official (however the last few certified letters I've sent him over the years have been refused and returned to me).
On the contempt thing, won't I have to get a court date and go through the whole court thing again? I dread months of drawn out court dates like when we filed for contempt (for child support) several years ago. It was a nightmare and cost me thousands of dollars in lawyers fees.


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Pops_IL_CP_Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773532 - 01/09/12 09:27 PM

Contempt for nonpayment of support or medical expenses is a pretty cut and dry thing. You shouldn't need an attorney. (And you sure shouldn't have had to "pay thousands" for an attorney for a contempt petition before--unless you didn't really have a case.)

But if you use one, you should request fees, too. If he loses (and most do), he will have to pay your fees.

Look, if he was ordered to pay, he was billed, and he refused to pay, that's contempt. The burden is on HIM to prove that he did not willfully and contumaciously fail to pay what the court ordered him to pay.

Of course, you could choose to just let it go... You might as well -- Because he apparently has your number and isn't going to pay because he knows you aren't going to do anything about it, anyway.

I file against my ex every 4 or 5 months. No attorney. Fill out a petition and notice of hearing, send it on, file appropriate papers with the clerk, set a date and bingo bango. We're in court a month later. Having a judge tell her she will go to jail unless she pays within ten days is only way she will pay a single dime of support.

--------------------
Focus on what is legally relevant, not morally indignant or petty.


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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Pops_IL_CP_Dad]
      #773741 - 01/10/12 07:14 PM

I don't what happened last time then, I was only asking for what was spelled out in our paperwork. When we went back my ex stirred some other stuff up so I wonder if that's why we had lawyers going back and forth so much. That's what I most fear. I was actually thinking about going to small claims but didn't know if I could. I've let all the other medical add up because its $5 here, $10 there for 1/2 of copays but has added up to about $200. But I can tell you if he refuses to pay his $600 it will be time to go back. I'm glad you've shared how easy it is to go back for contempt. It will be pretty cut and dried.

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Pops_IL_CP_Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773781 - 01/11/12 07:41 AM

Providing a small claims court would hear the case and not just refer you back to family court --

The same basic things will happen whether you go to small claims or family court. Either court could hand down a judgment and order the ex to pay. Either may put the ex on a payment plan. Either may order a wage garnishment.

BUT, on a complaint in small claims, you can NOT ask for some of the relief (consequences) that you can ask for on a contempt petition in family. For instance, in small claims, you can not request that the ex spends periodic (weekends) time in jail until child support is caught up. (Check your statutes to see what relief is available.) But the most important fact is that the ex would probably be found in contempt in family court. Not so in small claims. There would be no record in family court of the nonpayment. And THAT is where it needs to be.

The ex may try to "stir up some other stuff" to delay or confuse the issue, to force additional attorney fees to get you to drop your case or make it so costly that it makes no sense to pursue. If that can be proven or if the ex delays and obviously is responsible for you incurring needless attorney fees, he can be held responsible for those fees.

OR, what happens in the majority of cases, including a couple of times in my case, a check gets handed over or an agreement gets reached 10 minutes before court because the LAST thing the ex wants is to appear in front of the family court judge for nonsupport of ANY kind.

Make sure you have complied with everything--send bills promptly and regularly. Send copies of these THREE ways. 1--by certified mail, return receipt. 2--by regular postal mail. 3--by email. Why? The ex can refuse to pick up certified mail and claim that he never got it which would delay everything. However, if the postal mail does NOT get returned to you, then the court presumes that the recipient did, in fact, receive it. If you regularly correspond by email, then the court will also presume that the ex received the documentation.

When you say you have "let all the other medical add up", I hope that does NOT mean you haven't billed the ex. Bill him each and every time no matter how little the expense. Send him a statement of all money due monthly. Record on each original bill every date you bill the ex for that bill and the method of notice.

Regarding "lawyers going back and forth", that's just out of control attorneys running up billable hours. You should be managing your case AND managing your attorney. He is, after all, your employee. If you hire one, you should have explicit instructions on how you want your case handled -- i.e. "this is what I want and I will not pay for conferences between attorneys and letters between attorneys while they discuss things or try to negotiate a settlement." There is nothing to discuss, nothing to negotiate. Your stand would be that he either pays or goes to court.

--------------------
Focus on what is legally relevant, not morally indignant or petty.


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NewMexPop
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Pops_IL_CP_Dad]
      #773798 - 01/11/12 09:45 AM

The courts look to see what is in the BEST INTEREST OF THE CHILD.

They really don't care much for the bickering between parents and the silly control struggles that go back and forth. If you have documentation that the kids teeth are a mess, get braces on. Plenty of notice was given and it's in the CHILDS BEST INTEREST to get them on. I don't think you can equate braces with breast augmentation. With teeth, in many cases, the longer braces are delayed, the more corrective work needs to be done and the more expensive it gets. There is a lot of selfishness going on here.


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Pops_IL_CP_Dad
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #773833 - 01/11/12 02:27 PM

When you go to the ortho, take your orders with you that show who is responsible. Ask that the bill be divided between the parents according to the order. In other words, suppose it is going to cost 2500 for braces and insurance will pay 1500. The balance of 1000 should be divided--550 to you and 450 to the NCP. (You pay the first 100 and then the balance is split 50/50)

The ortho may or may not do this but it's worth a shot.

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despedina
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: Pops_IL_CP_Dad]
      #775799 - 01/28/12 01:40 PM

Well I want to thank everyone for there help. Right now we are just kind of waiting - my daughter's first ortho appt was last Wed and they took a look and told us everything that was wrong. Not only are her eye teeth behind other teeth but they were concerned that her back teeth were not touching top to bottom when she closed her mouth. My daughter never said anything because she didn't realize there was anything wrong with it. Our next appt is in 10 days where we will get the written diagnosis and start on a payment plan. We're going to get all of that in writing, make copies and show my ex in person. I also have a letter from a lawyer friend clarifying that this work is ordered in our paperwork.
After showing and discussing in person I should have an idea of whether my ex is going to play nice. But regardless I will send the letters and email as requested. Hopefully he sees this is a losing battle and that he just has to pay his portion of the payments (which will be about $50 per month if paid over 12 mos). I think this is terribly reasonable.


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Goodmom
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: despedina]
      #775827 - 01/28/12 06:36 PM

[quote]He responded that braces are like a breast augmentation or like liposuction and optional so if I wanted to do it I was responsible for all costs. Our paperwork specifically notes that "medical expenses" is defined as anything listed under IRS statute 1987 section 213 which I looked up and it does include braces on the list. Also, on our paperwork further down the paperwork it does specifically note "orthodontia". He thinks this means only emergency orthodontia and not "cosmetic procedures" as he calls it. [/quote]

Your ex is incorrect. And your court order supports your stance in two ways, first by stating that medical expenses are defined by the IRS guidelines, which list braces, and second by specifically stating orthodontia in it.

How you get him to see? Well, you present him with his portion of the bill, after all applicable insurance payouts, and when he refuses to pay, you take him to court for contempt. Be sure to ask for legal fees.


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Goodmom
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Re: Can't get ex to help pay for braces. [Re: gr8Dad]
      #775831 - 01/28/12 06:49 PM

[quote]Half a MEDICALLY needed braces. Keep in mind, RARELY are braces MEDICALLY NEEDED. What will be the MEDICAL outcome if the child does not get them? [/quote]

Uh, that's ONLY if the court order says MEDICALLY needed braces.

My ex has to pay a portion of the kids' orthodontia regardless of whether there is a medical need or not. As the wording in my court order simply states: Orthodontia will be split % to husband/father % to wife/mother.

And that is it.

The OP has already stated that her court order states "as defined by the IRS". Guess what? Braces are on the IRS list. And it also in same court order, it specifically states that orthodontia shall be split between the parents. The OP said NOTHING about the wording "MEDICALLY NECESSARY" being in there.

BTW, a judge is going to with the court order, not your opinion. Because that is all you are spewing, your opinion of their court order. Which is incorrect based on the the OP's first post,and you would know that if you had actually bothered to read her post.


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