elliesmom
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I was fairly certain he killed his wife all along. And now I am sure. How devastating for her family and the poor supervising caseworker.
[censored].foxnews.com/us/2012/02/05/blast-kills-husband-missing-utah-woman-2-boys-734852263/?test=latestnews
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Tweeby
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I feel for the maternal grandparents and for the caseworker.
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Miranda
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Oh I was just going to post this. I hope the family court system is proud of itself. I am so damn angry I can hardly type!
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Josh Powell & Two Sons Dead in Planned, Intentional Explosion: Police
By Howard Breuer
Update Sunday February 05, 2012 06:35 PM EST
Originally posted Sunday February 05, 2012 05:55 PM EST
Josh Powell
Elaine Thompson/AP
Thanks for liking PEOPLE's "Josh Powell & Two Sons Dead in Planned, Intentional Explosion: Police". Like PEOPLE on Facebook for breaking news, celebrity pictures, exclusive deals and more!
FacebookTweetJosh Powell, a person of interest in the Dec. 6, 2009 disappearance of his wife Susan, killed himself and the couple's two young sons on Sunday in a planned, intentional explosion, police confirm Sunday.
According to the The Seattle Times, a case worker delivered the boys to Powell's house Sunday near Tacoma, Wash., when Powell pushed the worker out of the house. Moments later, there was an explosion. Officials have recovered three bodies from the house that they believe are Josh Powell and his sons Charlie, 7, and Braden, 5.
The case worker "was forced out, and an explosion happened shortly thereafter," Ed Troyer, spokesman for the Pierce County Sheriff's Office, told the newspaper.
The Associated Press reports that Powell's lawyer in his custody case, Jeffrey Bassett, received a three-word email from his client minutes before the explosion. It said, "I'm sorry, goodbye."
Only days earlier, a family court judge told Powell that he was not likely to get custody of the boys anytime soon, and that he needed to undergo a psychological review. The boys were in the custody of their grandparents, Chuck and Judy Cox.
Powell had denied any role in his wife's disappearance, and had told police that she went missing while he took the boys on an overnight camping trip in a snowstorm. He recently told the family court judge that Chuck and Judy were not taking good care of the boys and were turning their two sons against him.
Powell lost custody on Sept. 22 after his father, Steve Powell, was arrested and charged with possessing child pornography.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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gr8Dad
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Is there any chance that despite the abscence of EVIDENCE that a man killed his spouse, that man is DESTROYED I'm the media. He is OBVIOUSLY guilty of this, but can any of us say we would stand up any better under such pressure?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Gecko
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Going to have to agree with Gr8Dad on this.
I had a friend who's wife was killed in a convenience store robbery in Arizona. A few months later, one of their boys got really sick and needed an operation and so my friend donated blood...and discovered that his son wasn't his son; and neither was the other son. When his late wife's parents found out...they filed for custody and won.
It wasn't enough that he had lost his wife to a senseless tragedy; it wasn't enough to discover that his wife had been unfaithful; and it wasn't enough to discover that his children weren't his biologically...now his children were stripped from him by the courts.
During one of his bi-monthly afternoon 'visits' that the court so 'graciously' granted this father of 10 years...he took off with them. For two weeks he camped and fished and played with his sons...then walked them into a police station and disappeared into a world of drugs and alcohol.
I think of all the times I have listen to so many folks here talk about how much they 'miss' their kids when they are with the other parent...how they go 'crazy'. The majority of ya'll have no clue...you know your kids will be back in a couple of days or a couple of weeks...and in the meantime, you can pick up the phone and call or text.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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Cassie23
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Heart sick on this one... I have been following the story. Seems as though he should have had a psychological evaluation months ago.
Nonetheless I can understand missing your kids, even killing yourself because you can't have your children BUT killing the children? That I just don't get and I don't think I ever could. It's one of those if I can't have them no one will. Those poor grandparents- most likely lost their daughter and now their two grandbabies.
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elliesmom
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Had he killed himself - I might could see it being media pressure etc. But callously planning the murder of your own children and carrying it out - shows a pathology that runs a lot deeper than the mere circumstances in your life. His story about his wife's disappearance didn't add up. Now we know why. He is a psychopath.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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But be honest people like you convicted him before there was ANY evidence. Matter of fact, there is STILL no evidence. But you take his kids, you threaten him with constant fear of chrges and a trial, which, if you don't have money, is a lost cause, and eventually, everyone breaks. To say that he CRACKED under such a huge amount of stress, so he MUST have killed his wife is reversing cause and effect.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Miranda
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He could kill himself all day everyday. You don't take your 5 and 7 year old children with you. This was a calculated murder suicide...of CHILDREN!! OMG
It is even sick that you could rationalize this despciable act. This just proves how guilty he was of EVERYTHING. He should never have been allowed to see the kids PERIOD, HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ROTTING IN PRISON. PERIOD.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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Miranda
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[quote]But be honest people like you convicted him before there was ANY evidence. Matter of fact, there is STILL no evidence. But you take his kids, you threaten him with constant fear of chrges and a trial, which, if you don't have money, is a lost cause, and eventually, everyone breaks. To say that he CRACKED under such a huge amount of stress, so he MUST have killed his wife is reversing cause and effect. [/quote]
Poor guy, I feel so bad for him. BARF. It's all the public's fault.
I got an idea...DONT MURDER YOUR WIFE, DONT LIVE WITH PEOPLE THAT LIKE KIDDIE P0RN, AND DONT LIVE WITH MOLESTERS.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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Miranda
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[quote]Is there any chance that despite the abscence of EVIDENCE that a man killed his spouse, that man is DESTROYED I'm the media. He is OBVIOUSLY guilty of this, but can any of us say we would stand up any better under such pressure? [/quote]
I would. Because I sure as hell wouldn't MURDER MY OWN CHILDREN. Ever. No questions about it. Nor would I murder my husband or live with people that like kiddie poorn.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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elliesmom
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Had he merely killed himself I could see it being a crack with reality. And I convicted him of nothing - I said his story didn't make sense. Which is why he was facing so much scrutiny. But he sat in his house, planned for their visit by filling it with gas and apparently had used accelerant all over the house so it would burn quickly, let his sons inside and slammed the door on the caseworker so he could light a fire.
The reason he lost custody of his kids is that he had them living with what is probably going to turn out to be some sort of pedophile (endophile). That and his young sons recall leaving their home to go camping with mommy in the trunk.
Even his sister and her husband have come out and said he was a complete narcissist who was incapable of loving anyone other than himself. Clearly. He burned his children to death.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Tweeby
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This had nothing to do with the media opinion of him. This was all him.
From my limited understanding of CPS and their process, he had some hoops he had to jump through to get custody of his children back. Twice a week in home visits, even supervisored, seems that CPS was working with reunification. I know my friend who is a foster Mom and twice weekely visits is a lot. Her foster kids have visits in a center and if it is at the parents home, it is getting closer for the child to be going home. Like I said, I have limited knowledge about the CPS workings but it seems like he was having to work his case plan to get the children back, just like anyone else who children were removed by CPS for any reason.
I have an old friend who was 'convicted' in the media. At trail she was proven innocent of all charges but the public still thought that she did it. Her life was ruined, she ended up leaving her husband giving him custody so they could at least live a safer life without her. There were threats against her life. She moved out of State and while the media was local it still followed her. She has limited contact with her children and grandchildren of her own accord to keep them safe because even close to 20 years later she still gets threats and people find her. Harm her kids? No way would she do that, she went through a lot to keep them safe.
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gr8Dad
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"It is even sick that you could rationalize this despciable act."
I did not rationalize ANYTHING.
"This just proves how guilty he was of EVERYTHING."
Really? So despite the FACT that there is NO evidence, THIS convinced you? I wonder how YOU would feel if YOUR spouse disappeared, they turned their eye on YOU, and then you lost your kids because of SOMEONE ELSE in your house breaking the law, with CONCRETE evidence that you had NO idea it was happening (the kiddie p0rn) and that it NEVER affected the kids?
Ever consider that if you PUNISH someone long enough for things they had NO control over, they eventually TAKE control, and in a way you don't like?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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"they eventually TAKE control, and in a way you don't like?"
One would hope that the person who would "like" for those kids to be murdered the least would be, oh I don't know, their own father. The fact that was not the case shows his true character. Murdering psychopath. Giving that the murdering psychopath's wife disappeared under mysterious circumstances - I will NOW go back and say - yeppers. He did that too.
I will have to contradict that there was evidence he had NO IDEA what was going on. It seems that there was no evidence that his did know, which is not the same thing. But it is why he probably would have gotten his kids back barring a charge in his wife's disappearance which seemed unlikely.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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But WHY did he have to jump through hoops? What did he DO? His DAD was a pervert who got busted with kiddie p0rn, and his wife was missing. What had he DONE to have the government crawl up his ass and make him PROVE he was a suitable parent?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"It seems that there was no evidence that his did know, which is not the same thing."
But enough to take his KIDS away? Better hope no one in your FAMILY ever does anything, because apparently, you are okay with the government taking your kids away based on what SOMEONE ELSE does.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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He had his children living with his father, who by accounts from others that he had to be aware of acted inappropriately. Not just kiddie p0rn. He was videotaping girls around the neighborhood in their bathrooms. He was giving interviews that he and Susan had a sexual attraction to one another after she disappeared. If my wife disappeared and I had nothing to do with it and my Dad starting acting like that - I would not be living with him. He was not a closet weirdo - it was pretty much in the open. Couple that with the other circumstances - his children were teh only witnesses to what happened - yeah. The state stepped in to make sure the home was safe. They asked him to undergo a psychosexual evaluation. Ouch! I can believe he wasn't sitting for a polygraph on all matters regarding his father AND an eval the days his kids were taken. I would. I would move heaven and earth to make sure I did everything to prove I had no idea, because as a normal person with a normal level of ego I understand how bad that looks.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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Miranda
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What did he do?
He took his 3 & 5 year old kids "camping in the middle of the week at night in sub zero temperatures, with their mommy in the trunk". That's what he did.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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Tweeby
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I don't know the 'real' reason on why CPS took custody of the children. He can state whatever reason he wants to in public because CPS will NOT comment on the reasons why. We can assume since CPS took the children from his custody when his Father was arrested for child p orn, but during the investigation other things could of been found.
I know there is criteria that CPS has to follow and at times they side on the side of being too cautious. Once your in the 'system' you have to prove your a suitable parent. If the children are taken from your custody than there are lot more hoops that you have to jump thorugh to get them back.
Hindsight is 20/20 so in this situation it seems that CPS was correct in removing the children from his custody since he did pose a danger to them. If 'stress' caused him to do this than CPS was correct in taking them but too lienient in giving him inhome suprevisored visits.
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gr8Dad
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"He had his children living with his father, who by accounts from others that he had to be aware of acted inappropriately. Not just kiddie p0rn. He was videotaping girls around the neighborhood in their bathrooms."
Ah, so if you live with someone, you HAVE to know they are unbalanced, right? So I guess it's his missing WIFE'S fault, cause she was LIVING with Josh, so she MUST have known something was going on, right? Oh, wait, no, she DIDN'T know, no one knew, right? But Josh MUST have known about his Dad, right? Nope, same measuring stick.
Oh,. and if he KNEW, why did he, when Dad was arrested, refuse to make bail for him and cut off all contact?
"If my wife disappeared and I had nothing to do with it and my Dad starting acting like that - I would not be living with him."
Well, you better hope that while embroiled in a missing person investigation, with a bitter custody battle going on, you have the extra MONEY to up and move your family out of your residence.
"The state stepped in to make sure the home was safe. They asked him to undergo a psychosexual evaluation. Ouch! I can believe he wasn't sitting for a polygraph on all matters regarding his father AND an eval the days his kids were taken. I would. I would move heaven and earth to make sure I did everything to prove I had no idea, because as a normal person with a normal level of ego I understand how bad that looks."
He DID do what they wanted. He did EVERYTHING they wanted, and four months later, the judge STILL refused to return the kids, despite NOTHING negative about Dad being found.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Tweeby
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How do you know that nothing was found about him? From him and his lawyer? CPS won't comment on the case because it is against law so whatever we hear it is from his side or possibly from her parents who may be aware of certain things about what the court stated.
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gr8Dad
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"He took his 3 & 5 year old kids "camping in the middle of the week at night in sub zero temperatures, with their mommy in the trunk". That's what he did."
And AMAZINGLY enough, the kids ONLY remembered that "Mommy was in the trunk" TWO YEARS after she disappeared and after spending four months with the grandparents, who are CONVINCED Dad did it. Hmmmmm....WHAT a coincidence.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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I know that there is NO evidence that has been presented, yet his CHILDREN were removed. You wanna make up something, feel free, but this is a GENDER issue. Men who are being investigated are FREQUENTLY treated like second class citizens and have children removed from their care "just in case". Its CRAP.
If you know of NO reason (ie, NO evidence), why are you so sure he SHOULD have had them removed? Oh yeah, because AFTER having them removed and being driven insane, he did something insane, right?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Tweeby
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How do you know that there was no evidence when CPS removed the children from his custody?
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gr8Dad
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Because they STATED that he was unaware of his father's activities. It was his father's activities that was used as the reason for removal.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Tweeby
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Who is 'they'? I don't see CPS commenting on why the children were removed because it is a confidential matter. Powell and/or his lawyer can claim anything they want to the media because CPS should not answer the reasons why to the media.
I also don't know WA laws on what criteria is used for CPS to remove children from a parent's custody.
Usually children are removed by CPS when CPS believes there is a danager to the childre. Because he did kill the children I would say hindsight is 20/20 and CPS was correct that he was a danger to the children. If 'stress' cause this he has been under an extreme amout of stress for a while now.
Best way to prove that the children were wrongly taken from your custody is to prove it. So far his actions haven't proved that they were wrongly taken from him. I would say the same if a Mother had killed her children duing a supervisored visit.
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gr8Dad
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Then we will have to agree to disagree. He is not the first father to have his kids taken while under investigation for a crime with NO evidence that the Dad was the perp. And I maintain that CPS and the courts can DRIVE a person to do extreme and horrible things, then sit back, point their fingers and say, "Look, see, we told you..." It is a self fufilling prophecy.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck? It's a damn good likelihood? It's a DUCK.
And in the case of MURDER and it's a "duck", you err on the side of extreme caution to protect innocent children. Which is what CPS and the courts did, ultimately (cuz when you add his father's.. tendencies.. well, the whole apple doesn't fall far from the tree, the genetic predispositions issue yadda yadda.. it's a no brainer to take the kids).
But regardless, here's the ultimate thing: NO ONE CAN PUSH SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF DOING THEMSELVES ANYWAY.
The man wrote "I'm sorry" to his lawyer? Because he LIED to his lawyer. I'd stake my own life on it.
I honestly find that anyone can somehow "justify" what he did to his children? Truly sickening. I'm glad the bastard took himself out.. I'm sorry he's a typical man who thinks children are his "property" and his narcissistic ass had to take them out with him. Disgusting.
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Tweeby
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Many Mothers have had their children taken by CPS also.
I don't see this a gender issue where it seems that you do. I hear what his lawyer has stated but we are not hearing anyother side because CPS records are not public knowledge. The court wanted an eval done on him and I don't see that as being too unreasonable.
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elliesmom
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If he had only killed himself, or possibly himself and the kids that relied solely on him for care - I would feel badly about how he was treated. But his kids were sent to live with grandma and grandpa for a spell while he sorted out the mess his father created in their home. Instead of recognizing what a compromising situation he had placed his kids in and behaving with regret - he was righteously indignant about the whole thing. In hindsight, because he clearly didn't give two shyts about his kids apart from their role as his possessions.
And yes, if I was living with a kiddie p0rn producer I would expect some serious scrutiny of my parenting. I do think CPS can be biased in these situations, but not that they are too hard on Dads. They are WAY TOO fecking lenient on women. You return to your abuser? Your kids should be GONE. You are a failure as a person right now and need some time to get your act together.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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"If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck? It's a damn good likelihood? It's a DUCK."
Yeah, but when there is no evidence that it has feathers, or webbed feet, or even a BILL, how do you determine its a duck? There was NO evidence he had ANYTHING to do with his wife's disappearence.
"And in the case of MURDER and it's a "duck", you err on the side of extreme caution to protect innocent children."
Again, ZERO evidence he had ANYTHING to do with it.
"(cuz when you add his father's.. tendencies.. well, the whole apple doesn't fall far from the tree, the genetic predispositions issue yadda yadda.. it's a no brainer to take the kids)."
So when will you be dropping YOUR kids off at CPS, I mean you constantly talk about how crappy YOUR Mom was, and being her daughter, you OBVIOUSLY have those tendencies, so its JUST a matter of time before you will become the same thing, right? Come on, its FOR THE SAFETY OF THE KIDS...
"NO ONE CAN PUSH SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF DOING THEMSELVES ANYWAY."
As a fairly educated person, you KNOW this to be false.
"The man wrote "I'm sorry" to his lawyer? Because he LIED to his lawyer. I'd stake my own life on it."
Or it JUST as easily could have been that he was sorry for giving up a fight that he simply appeared to be unable to win.
"I honestly find that anyone can somehow "justify" what he did to his children? Truly sickening."
NEVER justified it.
"I'm sorry he's a typical man who thinks children are his "property" and his narcissistic ass had to take them out with him. Disgusting."
Typical man? THAT is disgusting.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"But his kids were sent to live with grandma and grandpa for a spell while he sorted out the mess his father created in their home."
Oh, so it was like a VACATION, right? BAER. No, they were SNATCHED from him, he was given SUPERVISED visitation, and AFTER jumping through their hoops, was STILL denied his RIGHTS as a PARENT.
"Instead of recognizing what a compromising situation he had placed his kids in and behaving with regret - he was righteously indignant about the whole thing."
Why should HE regret that his FATHER was a pedophile? The father was in jail, he cut off contact, cooperated with police, what MORE could he do?
"And yes, if I was living with a kiddie p0rn producer I would expect some serious scrutiny of my parenting."
But how far does it go? How long do you have to do as they say, with nothing indicated as being your fault or cause?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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ssmom79
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Is there any chance that despite the abscence of EVIDENCE that a man killed his spouse, that man is DESTROYED I'm the media. He is OBVIOUSLY guilty of this, but can any of us say we would stand up any better under such pressure?
____________________________________________
Yes, I would stand up better to such pressure and would not resort to killing my family.
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gr8Dad
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I would like to think I would, but then again, I have never been under such pressure, so I just don't know.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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"I'm sorry he's a typical man who thinks children are his 'property.'"
I don't think that is fair. I don't know any man personally that feels that way.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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googledad
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Data would show that on average for parents that kill their children , fathers would go the murder/suicide route , mothers would be more likely to just kill the kids .
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Careful. We don't want to learn from this.
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LexieBelle
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"NO ONE CAN PUSH SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE CAPABILITY OF DOING THEMSELVES ANYWAY."
As a fairly educated person, you KNOW this to be false.
--------------->>I'm extremely educated ;0 (LOL)
I really DON'T know this to be false. It's like spousal abuse let's say. I believe a woman CAN "push" a man to hit her BUT, ultimately, one can't be "pushed" if one wouldn't already POTENTIALLY go there. I'm absolutely a f/irm believer in this. No doubt.
And this guy is no exception, to me. In fact? It fits perfectly. He already had the potential to kill, and he likely DID kill. So CPS/courts couldn't "push" him to do what he'd had the capability to do and DID do (in all likelihood) before.
As for men and property... you can think it's disgusting all you like; however, I absolutely believe in the psychology behind that too. Men who kill? Kill because their possessions are threatened. It's an ownership/ego thing. Women who kill? Do it for other reasons. But with men (and bear in mind, this is like my pet thing. I'm fascinated by crime, PARTICULARLY murders.. it's like a fetish.. so I've researched this unbelievably extensively) it's about ownership/control. Absolutely. Well, I will caveat, at least with THIS type of murder (familial). When you get into spree or serial killings by men doesn't fall into the same category mentally and you don't get women who do spree/serial killings. Aileen Wournos being an exception and she was more like a chick with a dick mentally and it was a power/control thing for her.
Anyway, sorry.. like I said, my personal "thing"... I used to think I'd want to be a criminal prosecutor, I've come to realize I'd much prefer to be a criminal psychologist.
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LexieBelle
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[quote]"I'm sorry he's a typical man who thinks children are his 'property.'"
I don't think that is fair. I don't know any man personally that feels that way. [/quote]
------------>> Oh, I do!! Heck, my ex does. The ONLY time we have ever had a a full out explosion and it was one-sided lol, HE exploded, that was the entire diatribe. Our daughter was HIS property (funny, given he only wanted her a few hours a week) and I wasn't going to take HIS property away.
I know a few others too. Now, my definition of "property" or how that sentiment is portrayed might not be like "here's my cattle". It's just a way of talking about your kids.. it's making it a competition with the other parent where you constantly hear "me me me, my my my" but you almost NEVER hear a word about the child, other than the context of "me me me, my my my". It's property.
I think you find it a lot with abusive men. Those men view women as "property". They view their children the same way. That's why you get into these murder/suicide or patricide type situations. They start losing control of their property, the only way to assume ULTIMATE control of that property is to kill them. Ultimate ownership.
"typical" may be a bad word, sorry. I don't mean "typical" in terms of "general male population".. it's typical of "THIS TYPE" of male. Of which? There's quite a lot out there in case anyone doesn't follow these things. There's cases like this ALL OVER.. ALL THE TIME. Here, just what, a week ago? Guy just chopped up his common law wife and stuffed her pieces in the fireplace and lit her up. With HIS KIDS in the house. They're okay, thank goodness. But they were property. In that particular case, I happen to have quite a few connections to that case so I know the history, I know what was found, etc. Just another example. And there are soooooooooo many.
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ssmom79
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I'm pretty confident I'm not capable of that. Ya know? I know what I would do, what I wouldn't do, what I could do if pushed, and what nothing could push me to do.
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gr8Dad
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"He already had the potential to kill, and he likely DID kill."
Based on what? The complete and total lack of evidence that he had anything to do with his wife missing?
"So CPS/courts couldn't "push" him to do what he'd had the capability to do and DID do (in all likelihood) before."
That is ridiculous. If NO ONE could EVER be pushed to do something they were not capable of, then there would be no reason for any "justifiable" cases or anything like that. Could you shoot someone? COuld you shoot someone if they had a gun to your child's head? So are you dangerous because you are CAPABLE of shooting someone, even though it is only under extreme situations?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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ssmom79
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I think that is a very poor comparison. Talk about apples and oranges, gr8 you've got apples and gorillas!
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LexieBelle
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Justifiable killings are the exception in that they are for PRESERVATION of your own life.
I do NOT believe in excusing murder for say "the klonopin defense" or "roid rage", or "road rage" or any other bullshyt excuses. I do believe in "justifiable" killing if your life is in imminent danger.
As for "complete and total lack of evidence". Okay, so you don't know what they do or don't have. First of all. Second of all, MANY people have been convicted on "circumstantial" proof. The Looks like Duck, Quacks Like a Duck thing. In this case, umm... you'd take a then 5 year old and TWO year old out, at what midnight? On a freezing cold night, to go CAMPING??? What parent on crack does THAT?
NOW, two years (almost 3 years) later, the kids are talking. Now YOUR position is because the seeds have been "planted" basically, right? Have you considered that now the children are older, are better ABLE to verbalize? Aren't AFRAID to verbalize?
I'd highly doubt that you'd be able to plant THAT big a seed, at THAT age, in four short months. NOT unless there was something already there to SUPPORT that seed. For example, and I have said this here before, like PAS.. I don't think it works, PARTICULARLY in young children, without there being some seed of doubt or something missing about the other parent, in the young child's mind.
I feel the same here. IF an idea was planted, it wouldn't take route to "mommy was in the trunk of the car" unless there was something to lead the child there NATURALLY.
I absolutely belief that's EXACTLY where she was. And the kids are now just ABLE to say. Also probably a big factor in why he killed them, and himself.
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gr8Dad
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"As for "complete and total lack of evidence". Okay, so you don't know what they do or don't have."
Neither do YOU, and under OUR system of justice, a LACK of evidence means you are innocent.
"MANY people have been convicted on "circumstantial" proof. The Looks like Duck, Quacks Like a Duck thing. In this case, umm... you'd take a then 5 year old and TWO year old out, at what midnight? On a freezing cold night, to go CAMPING??? What parent on crack does THAT?"
So a parent that makes a bad choice on where to CAMP is guilty of MURDER? Come on, that is a stretch.
"NOW, two years (almost 3 years) later, the kids are talking. Now YOUR position is because the seeds have been "planted" basically, right? Have you considered that now the children are older, are better ABLE to verbalize? Aren't AFRAID to verbalize?"
Nope. They have spent the last four months with people who are CONVINCED that the father did it, and the BEST that they are "verbalizing" is that Mommy was in the trunk, supposedly. Yes, they COULD be able to verbalize, but they are JUST as likely to be regurgitating what they have been fed. So lets take a look at the trunk of the car...oops, NOTHING there.
"I'd highly doubt that you'd be able to plant THAT big a seed, at THAT age, in four short months."
What HUGE seed? That Mommy was in the trunk? Its easy, "Did you see Mommy? No? Well, could she have been in the trunk, did you look in the trunk? You didn't? Then Mommy COULD have been in the trunk, right?" Boom, done. Took 30 seconds.
"I absolutely belief that's EXACTLY where she was. And the kids are now just ABLE to say. Also probably a big factor in why he killed them, and himself."
OR, he was under a GREAT deal of stress, NO ONE believed he was innocent, even with the abscence of evidence, his inlaws were turning his kids against him, he was repeatedly denied custody, despite his efforts to satisfy the court requirements, which appear to keep changing each time he goes, with no end in sight?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Nope, direct comparison. "Justifiable" deaths are those under which there are extenuating circumstances that led to the death that are unlikely to be repeated under normal circumstances in the future.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
veteran
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Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I'm just floored that he killed the children - want to kill yourself fine go right ahead but there was NO reason to take the children with you.
This guy planned this it wasn't a "heat of passion" due to being pushed over the edge and he sent the email saying he was sorry - there is the knowledge of right and wrong when one does such an action. He's a murderer plain and simple - maybe he did not kill his wife but he certainly killed his innocent children.
I agree with whoever stated that CPS was working on reunification given the visits were in his home because (one case sticks out to me) when I did supervised visits for CPS I had a lady that went to prison for two years and her children went into foster care her reunification plan had supervised visits at McDonald's, the foster parents farm, public places etc... and graduated to her home and she did get her children back - it took about 10 months and would have been shorter time if she had gotten a suitable home sooner for them but it took her a while to get her sh!t together. In the very beginning she had her visits in the CPS office playroom. She had to get to know her children again and they had to build trust with her on child was 4 and the other was 10 when she went to prison.
I do not get why he hadn't had the evaluation sooner - that doesn't make sense.
Once his dad went to jail and he cut off contact the reunification should have been on course. He was not providing a safe environment for the children to live with the father in the home - not much different then the mother who stays with the abusive boyfriend and the children are taken until the mother either rectifies the situation or if she doesn't then she has approximately one year for the reunification program - it used to be two years but the time limit has shortened due to not wanting to leave the children in limbo and the research that shows children do better when not left in limbo - children need structure and safety and a home they can count on - knowing they have food and a safe place to call home is necessary for building self-esteem, self-control, healthy relationships, etc...
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gr8Dad
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"This guy planned this it wasn't a "heat of passion" due to being pushed over the edge and he sent the email saying he was sorry - there is the knowledge of right and wrong when one does such an action."
Sent an Email, pop open a gas line, strike a match. Not a lot of planning.
"I agree with whoever stated that CPS was working on reunification..."
The difference being, she had actually DONE something to warrant a reunification plan. He had done NOTHING.
"I do not get why he hadn't had the evaluation sooner - that doesn't make sense."
It wasn't ordered. He DID everything he was told to do, showed up in court, and they ADDED stuff.
"Once his dad went to jail and he cut off contact the reunification should have been on course."
Once the Dad went to jail, the kids should never have been removed.
"He was not providing a safe environment for the children to live with the father in the home - not much different then the mother who stays with the abusive boyfriend..."
The difference being that the woman with the abusive boyfriend KNOWS what he is doing. There is NOTHING to indicate that Josh was aware of what his Dad was doing. So what you are saying would be akin to a woman finding out her boyfriend is abusing the kids, she kicks him out of the house, and CPS STILL takes the kids and makes her prove she is fit.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Apparently you haven't had a small child in a while ;) Children inherently WANT to trust/belief their parents. And particularly with the loss of ONE parent, they will want to cling to the OTHER parent. I think it would take VASTLY more than "30 seconds" to plant that seed. I really do. And I think any child psychologist would agree. You're stuck in "divorced dad" brain and not applying basic child psychology, plus loss/separation psychology plus surviving child of a murdered parent psychology.
It would take a TREMENDOUS amount of coaching to get to what you're suggesting. TREMENDOUS.
As for "bad choice on where to camp". Not just WHERE, but WHEN. Let me ask you, do you know ANY mother who would be okay with dad taking out a BARELY 2 year old, out at MIDNIGHT, in FREEZING weather, to CAMP????????? Let's apply basic maternal logic here. FREEZING weather, MIDNIGHT. She was DEAD BY THEN. NO WAY a mother is going to allow that. Well, okay, maybe there's some trailer trash hillbilly crackhead type who would. But she obviously was not that kind of mother. Soooo, she's a reasonable, sane, concerned, NORMAL mother. NO WAY is she just gonna be like "oh yeah, it's midnight, freezing out, SURE HONEY, go take our just barely 2 year old to go sleep". Nope. SHE WAS DEAD ALREADY.
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Tweeby
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I don't buy into the fact that the kids are now just being able to verbalize what happened. Perhaps if it came out in play therapy it may be more believable but not just saying they can talk and remember now.
Both sides (Dad and the maternal grandparents) have been able to twist things around in the young kids minds that anything that they 'remember' now is not that believable to me.
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gr8Dad
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Interesting, you want to use the words of the kids? Well, here is what the grandparents attorney says the KIDS said:
"They were beginning to verbalize more," said Downing, whose clients had custody of the children. "The oldest boy talked about that they went camping and that Mommy was in the trunk. Mom and Dad got out of the car and Mom disappeared."
So you want to believe that the kids saw Mommy in the trunk...but they also say they saw her get out of the car. Was Dad walking her around like Weekend at Bernies?
BTW, consider that you live in NEW YORK, they live in UTAH. New Yorkers don't go out in cold weather, Utah folks do.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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Actually she lives in RI. But either way - um, if NYers didn't go out in cold weather they wouldn't leave their house for 6 months of the year. I actually found people in the northeast to be a little MORE into the cold outdoors than people who live out west in the desert. But they aren't morons. You don't have a subzero weekend and decide to use it to take your toddler camping on the spur of the moment. It doesn't make sense. And she actually brought up a good point. Even if he was moronic enough to think it was a good idea? The mother here didn't seem like she was totally brain-dead and probably would have lobbied for at least the 2 yo to stay home with her. Unless she was dead. I hadn't thought of that - probably because my husband is not a moronic father and would never suggest such a thing.
I don't think the kids are particularly reliable witnesses. Kids are pretty selfcentered and don't pay attention to things not affecting them in the moment. And even when they remember seemingly mundane things it is rarely accurate. But their spot-on accuracy/guesswork might have scared their father shytless into thinking they WERE paying attention.
I can totally see a narcissistic bastard thinking that they were betraying him and thusly deserved to die with him.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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annieo
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Loc: Pacific Northwest
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The fact that he did not kill the CPS worker (have to give a smidgen of credit there even if I don not want to) also adds forethought and the gas has to be open for more then a few minutes to ignite and explode so fast - the home had to have more then a couple vapors in it to explode in the manner that it did.
I agree that the grandparents may have fed the children information - the children should not have been placed with the missing daughters parents - I understand the reasoning but it is an ongoing investigation and they believe he killed their daughter so there is imo a huge conflict of interest.
I think the children were rightly removed at least for a couple days to figure the grandfather out but they should have gone back to the father - I have to think that something else came up in order to keep the children from him. Would I WANT to give the children back - no - but by law without further evidence or information what have you - the children should have been returned.
the abusive boyfriend scenario I should have clarified with the boyfriend abusing mom physically/mentally not him abusing the children sexu@lly. However if it was sexu@l abuse then children should be taken until the mom rectifies the situation and depending on her actions would dictate the time period for the children to be gone.
The courts do add more hoops if they see a reason for the additional hoops and we are not privy to the CPS report so again I have to think there was something else/found. I do not want to assume but CPS is not in the business to keep children from their rightful parents without cause. The children already did not have mommy so they needed dad and as has been stated there is no evidence that dad did anything wrong in regards to the children until......he murdered them...
I want to go with my gut and say he did in fact kill his wife but all there is (that we know of) is that he made a poor judgement in taking his small children camping in the dead of night in the freezing cold.
I get what you are saying and in this country innocent until proven guilty is a misnomer of sorts.
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Tweeby
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Here is an article I found from last week about the reasons on why the court ordered the evals and to keep the children with the maternal grandparents:
thenewstribune.com/2012/02/01/2008426/to-regain-custody-josh-powell.html
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LexieBelle
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I'm a native New Englander dear :) 30 years and back again for 2 ;) Blizzard of '78 ring a bell? Just bustin'. Seriously though, even Long Island? Gets BITCHEN cold. It's an ISLAND, surrounded by WATER. Trust me, it gets COLDDD. Try going out to the ferry on a winter's day.. it's horrible. Heck, we had snow for Halloween this year ;)
Granted the kids' recall may not be "ideal" but I'm guessing there are elements of truth to it and like EM said, even the spot-onness of guesswork? Would be enough to make him think they needed to go.
A theory, by the way? Is that she was put IN the trunk to leave the house. Now, it's midnight? They drive. Kids fall asleep. They get to the camp area, and by then, he's taking Mom OUT of the trunk (potentially still alive but she'd been sedated or whatever since it's apparent she wasn't killed AT the house), and she can "get out" of the car (albeit sedated, obviously him assisting/carrying her). I'd have to go back over the details/specifics but something along this line. My bet is the kids were WITH HIM, and HER, when she was killed.
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gr8Dad
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And the article should scare the CRAP out of any true parents out there.
The reason given was that images of a questionable nature were found on a computer "connected" to Josh. In other words, his DAD's computer. He offered to take a lie detector test to prove he had NO idea about the pictures, the judge REFUSED to allow it, and instead ordered a psycho sexual eval. The judge ADMITTED that he was following all of the rules, the judge just "decided" to add one more.
FTR, he has since moved OUT of his father's house (the father still remains in jail), and is following all the rules.
And FOR that effort on his part, he gets...yep, MORE RULES, MORE SUSPICION, and NO KIDS.
Now THINK about this. There is NO evidence he did anything to his wife. For that matter, there is no evidence she is even DEAD. He has committed NO crimes, and has reacted reasonably to the information about his father's perversion (moved out, refused bail, cut off contact, etc).
So his kids were removed for NO reason, and continued to be held from him for NO reason. Welcome to AMERICA.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"Is that she was put IN the trunk to leave the house."
And the kids didn't think this was weird enough to MENTION? I mean how often does Mommy ride around in the trunk of the car? Memory is triggered by events OUT of the norm, and if Mommy in the trunk is NOT out of the norm, well, that woudl be weird.
"Now, it's midnight? They drive. Kids fall asleep. They get to the camp area, and by then, he's taking Mom OUT of the trunk (potentially still alive but she'd been sedated or whatever since it's apparent she wasn't killed AT the house), and she can "get out" of the car (albeit sedated, obviously him assisting/carrying her)."
Wouldn't that result in a "Daddy got out of the car, and Mommy got out of the trunk?" COME ON, what kid is going to describe a person being lifted out of a TRUNK as, "getting out of the car"? Oh, and according to your EALIER claim, Mommy was already DEAD at that point, so she COULDN'T have been sedated and groggy. Of course, that doesn't fly with the OTHER timeline as to WHY he went out camping.
"My bet is the kids were WITH HIM, and HER, when she was killed."
So now he killed her with the kids WATCHING, or at least THERE? And the 5 year old didn't, ONCE, ask, "Hey, where is Mommy?" I mean if she went WITH them, they would ASK for her, right?
NONE of it passes the smell check.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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To clarify, Mom wouldn't have been taken out of the TRUNK, her would have moved her to the front seat of the CAR ITSELF, THEN assisted her out of the car.
And it can either way.. either she was dead en route OR he killed once they got there. Either way.. doesn't matter. Kids don't know she's DEAD silly, she's "SLEEPING".
As for kids and memory.. Obviously you don't remember the story of Dianne Downs? Shot her kids herself, had I believe one survive? Took the surviving girl QUITE a while to either recall or verbalize what transpired and I'm pretty sure getting shot by your own mother isn't "the norm".
The child doesn't have to witness the murder for the loss of a parent to be traumatic, traumatic enough to block things, PARTICULARLY if the child suspects the parent. Even if NOT suspecting the parent,how traumatic is it that well, I'm sleeping, I wake up, Mommy's gone.. forever. I think it's EXTREMELY easy for the child to block out memories, block out things said or that transpired. Absolutely. I'm sure there are thousands of cases where testimony of a child was needed, those memories were needed but they didn't come out at the drop of a hat like "hey, oh yeah, dad shot mom in the head, saw the whole thing.. whoooo hoooo!"
I think you are right that children are more likely to recall the unusual if they are HAPPY things. Unpleasant they tend to stuff until the memory is re-triggered. It's like a shot. The majority of kids aren't going to go around talking for months that they got a shot. They want to stuff that unpleasant memory and focus on happy stuff. But, next time they go to the doctor, what do they do? Freak that they're gonna get a shot (if they were upset by getting a shot the last time, if it didn't bother them? No reaction/no recall).
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 2161
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This guy killed his kids. No matter how innocent or guilty he was in his wife's disappearance - he killed himself and his kids.
Premeditated. He thought about it and planned it - when and how. Before he did the act.
Those poor INNOCENT children.
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gr8Dad
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"To clarify, Mom wouldn't have been taken out of the TRUNK, her would have moved her to the front seat of the CAR ITSELF, THEN assisted her out of the car."
Okay, so he sedates her and sits her in the car, drives to the remote location, helps her out of the car, and takes her somewhere and kills her. So why was she EVER in the trunk? When would the kids have seen her in the trunk? And if they had NO idea she was in the process of being killed, why would they say she wasn't THERE? I mean if she rode to the location "asleep" in the front seat, then they wouldn't have said they went with Dad alone.
It is a catch 22. If she was in the trunk, they wouldn't have seen her get out of the car, if she was in the car, they would have known she went with.
"And it can either way.. either she was dead en route OR he killed once they got there. Either way.. doesn't matter. Kids don't know she's DEAD silly, she's "SLEEPING"."
So why didn't they say that she went with but didn't come back?
"As for kids and memory.. Obviously you don't remember the story of Dianne Downs? Shot her kids herself, had I believe one survive? Took the surviving girl QUITE a while to either recall or verbalize what transpired and I'm pretty sure getting shot by your own mother isn't "the norm"."
Ah, but the kids don't KNOW that Mommy is dead, or anything other than Mommy is not HOME, so there is no traumatic event to cause a verbal "lock up".
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Agreed, and it was a horrible thing. Which is why we should LEARN from it and not push people with NO evidence and treat them like CRIMINALS. Because nice people are sometimes only nice people because they know they are protected by the system. When the system turns on you and begins to treat you like a criminal, sometimes you ACT like a criminal.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Okay, I can GUARANTEE you, that if I just POOF! Disappeared one day? My kid would be traumatized. Losing a parent and YES, having one just DISAPPEAR, is TRAUMATIC.
Look at Cary Stayner. Wasn't a CHILD, it was his BROTHER. Look how whacked out he ended up. And they attribute a LOT of his mental issues that led to him murdering those women to his brother's disappearance.
Look at kids who witness their siblings' abductions.. how difficult it is to remember. Etc. Elizabeth Smart's sister is one of them.
I think you're applying what you would expect of an ADULT at best, and at worst a child in a divorce situation and they aren't remotely comparable.
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Tweeby
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How about rereading the article. The computer with questionable nature was from his home in Utah, not Washington State. The Judge didn't see the evidence just heard about it. The Judge did her job and ordered an eval done to get to the truth. The Judge stated that they were working towards giving him back custody of the boys.
BTW, it seems that last week was the 2nd hearing and another one was scheduled for Summer. Sounds typical for CPS court hearings. Give time to get the evals done and than written up. May seem like a long time but in court a few months is fast.
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gr8Dad
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Actually, you might want to research the article. He was living in Utah with his wife, she disappeared, he moved to Washington to stay with his parent, and the computer in THAT home was where they found the p0rn:
"The children have been living with Chuck and Judy Cox since Josh Powell's father Steven was arrested on child [censored] and voyeurism charges. Pierce County Superior Court Judge Kathryn J. Nelson ruled Wednesday that Josh Powell must undergo a psycho-sexual evaluation and polygraph test, noting the "extreme child [censored]" found in the Puyallup home where Josh was living with the two boys and his parents after Susan's disappearance."
katu.com/news/local/Judge-denies-Josh-Powell-custody-of-kids--138524684.html?m=y&smobile=y
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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I wholeheartedly disagree. The only thing we can learn from this is that some people are total psychopaths and can to a degree hide it.
There is nothing you could do to me that would make me murder my own children. I will not caveat that. I faced an investigation-ish incident and found it to be a non-event. Had it not - I would have made arrangements with friends/family to avoid foster care and done IMMEDIATELY whatever I thought I judge might ask of me before I ever even GOT to court.
We have no idea what he agreed to etc. in family court. It is closed procedings and the government cannot comment even if one side tells a bald-faced lie.
Honestly before this I thought the whole story was weird as all get out, but I wouldn't have gone so far as to call him a murderer. I mean - it was weird that he JUST so happened to go camping on the night his wife disappeared in not camping friendly weather, but coincidences happen. But he is a murderer. Everything he has said up to this point is colored by what I now know about him. He is a vicious child-killer. You don't get pushed to killing your kids unless you are insane. This guy was pretty frickin sane. Just pure evil apparently.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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Okay, so the disappearence of someone is scary. So he comes home from camping, wife is not home, he calls the police, they show up. Now, at this point, the kids know NOTHING. SO are you claiming they wouldn't have blurted out something like, "Why didn't Mommy come back from camping with us?"?
"Look at kids who witness their siblings' abductions.."
I am not talking about details of a know CRIME, I am talking SIMPLE stuff, like when Josh was talking to the cops and said, "Hey, no idea where she is, we went camping..." So the cop, with due diligence, says to the 5 year old, "So, you guys went camping, huh?" And NEITHER of the kids says ANYTHING indicating that Mommy went with?
So, you are arguing both sides of the coin right now. One, if they WITNESSED a murder, they would be traumatized enough not to speak. But when they DID speak, ALMOST THREE YEARS LATER, it would be more than, "I saw Mommy in the trunk". Of course, if they DIDN'T witness it, while the MISSING parent would be traumatic, at THAT point, if Mommy rode with them to the location, they would be CONFUSED.
The problem is that you cannot take kids who have NO symptoms of a traumatic event like witnessing a crime, and say that their ONE oddity (claiming Mom was in the trunk) is a result of witnessing a traumatic event.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Tweeby
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From the SAME article:
[quote]But in a bizarre twist, last September Steven Powell, Josh's father, was arrested for voyeurism and child pornography. Now the assistant Attorney General says Utah investigators wanted to make sure this family court saw the images they allegedly got from Josh Powell's home down there. [/quote]
So why would Utah want WA to know of images that Utah has but WA doesn't have? Why use "down there"? Utah is South East of WA and the term down usually indicated south for direction.
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gr8Dad
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"I faced an investigation-ish incident and found it to be a non-event. Had it not - I would have made arrangements with friends/family to avoid foster care"
See, they never gave him that option, they TOOK the kids and handed them to a couple who was OPENLY stating that their Dad was a murderer.
"done IMMEDIATELY whatever I thought I judge might ask of me before I ever even GOT to court."
He has done EVERYTHING asked of him. They added stuff this last go round.
"You don't get pushed to killing your kids unless you are insane. This guy was pretty frickin sane. Just pure evil apparently."
Personally, I think he was insane, pushed to that point by a system that convicted him WITHOUT a trial. Hell, they wouldn't even CHARGE him, yet began the penalty stage, taking his kids for what his FATHER did, etc etc. You say that you wouldn't, but we ALL have our breaking points.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Not sure why. Maybe they should have CHARGED him, so he could address the issue. See, THAT is the secret weapon they use. If they don't "charge" you, you can't DEFEND yourself.
ETA: Notice they said "images" not "kiddie p0rn". Now there is really no fine line when it comes to kiddie p0rn, its either p0rn, or NOT p0rn. Nekkid kids is pretty obvious. But as long as the law speaks in "Well, we HAVE stuff, can't really say what it is, but its STUFF, and WE think its important stuff..." and refuse to charge you, you are in "guilty limbo", unable to clear your name, because you don't know what the hell they are talking about. Maybe he had a diaper changing photo of one of the kids. Nothing weird about it.
ETA: Found this on another article:
"Powell found out Feb. 1 that he would not get his boys back until at least July, and that he had to submit to a psychosexual evaluation and polygraph test regarding sexually explicit images found on a computer in his West Valley City home."
Wow, a guy who hasn't had a female in his home for three years had P0RN (perfectly legal) on his computer? Hey, if you are advocating pulling kids out of homes because their Mom or Dad has LEGAL p0rn on their PC's, I hope you are prepared to build HUGE foster homes, cause its gonna be a lot.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
Edited by gr8Dad (02/06/12 03:11 PM)
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LexieBelle
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Apparently they said more than "Mommy was in the trunk":
from CNN, just now:
"An attorney says the children told their grandparents, "Mommy's in the mine""
ETA:
"According to investigators, Powell had said the last time he saw his wife was the night he and his sons -- then ages 2 and 4 -- left to go camping.
Powell told authorities he left the house sometime after midnight in below-freezing weather for a desert area in Utah's Tooele County."
So, you're now looking at a 4 and 6 year old, going back to 2 and 4 year old recollections. And you're questioning why they aren't perfect and full? Come on now, let's be real.
This came from People, earlier, but after I posted nearly the same thing, from her father:
""We stated our fear many times, that if he was feeling desperate, that he would possibly kill himself and the boys, that this kind of thing could happen," Susan's father Chuck tells PEOPLE. "If he felt there was no way out, that he wouldn't let anyone else have them. They were possessions to him." "
Note the last sentence. Like it or not, there is absolutely a trait that exists, mainly in SOME men, that women are children are like chattel. They are possessions. Whatever triggered it in him with the wife, apparently we will never know. It's easy to figure out what triggered it in him with the children.
You can justify it however you'd like, but it is what it is.
Edited by LexieBelle (02/06/12 03:31 PM)
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Tweeby
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For CPS they don't have to charge you. There is evidence that is questionable. Should the courts just ignore the evidence and do nothing because he said it wasn't him or should they look into it more and figure out what is going on?
Do you really think that Powell killed himself and his kids over the stress and/or because his kids were taken from his custody?
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elliesmom
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I find it unbelievable that a person could be so broken up about losing their kids that they would then murder them. A person that broken up about it - would not be capable of killing their kids. And a person capable of killing their kids - would not be broken up about not having them. Find it insulting, angry at the kids for not taking their side more - that is the type of thing THAT kind of person would feel.
And lets be honest - he hadn't lost his kids. They were one step away (twice weekly visits) to be returned to him. Unless he really did have something he couldn't hide in a psychosexual eval or on that computer from his house. Which brings us back to again - there was something wrong with him. Not the system.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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LexieBelle
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Amen EM! I was going to say that as well. If you're NOT guilty, then you cooperate. If you're SUSPECTED, do you really WANT your kids around that stress? Wouldn't you WANT them somewhere kinda away from the glare of your being investigated?
And the SADDEST part to me? Is her family suspected he would kill the kids. They "told anyone who would listen" in terms of law enforcement, etc. And I know Gr8 will go "well, didn't they make it a self-fulfilling prophecy given how they hounded him???" and my answer is NO. When you know? You just know.
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M5M5
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I agree with everyone else. He murdered his children. He more than likely murdered his wife too. And yes, this does make him look 10000 times more guilty than he did before.
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M5M5
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And yes, if I was living with a kiddie p0rn producer I would expect some serious scrutiny of my parenting. I do think CPS can be biased in these situations, but not that they are too hard on Dads. They are WAY TOO fecking lenient on women. You return to your abuser? Your kids should be GONE. You are a failure as a person right now and need some time to get your act together.
====>TOTALLY agree with this!!
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M5M5
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You don't know if you would kill your kids or not? Come on now...that's just scary.
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annieo
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the latest on Powell:
He planned the murder suicide for some time. He wrote extensive emails to some and donated toys etc.. to charities and left information on how to take care of his affairs.
It is on Washington state news channels as the police continue to go through everything.
I have family in Puyallup and the community is devastated.
There goes that he snapped under media pressure scenario....
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gr8Dad
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"An attorney says the children told their grandparents, "Mommy's in the mine"
Ah, so now she is in a MINE. What happened to the TRUNK.
Honestly, sounds more like grandma and grandpa were speaking out of school and suggested that he put her in the trunk and threw he down a mine. Of course, TWELVE DAYS of searching the area turned up NOTHING.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Yeah, cause the media circus started last week, right? Was peaches and cream before that, huh?
Funny how NOW, grandma had to "talk" the kids into going, cause they were "scared" of going to Dads. Yet the visitation supervisor said they RAN to see him.
This story is feeding in on itself.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"If you're NOT guilty, then you cooperate."
He did, what did it get him?
" If you're SUSPECTED, do you really WANT your kids around that stress? Wouldn't you WANT them somewhere kinda away from the glare of your being investigated?"
He moved them to Washington.
"When you know? You just know"
I truly hope no one ever just "knows" something about you.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
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He planned it - the murder suicide - he did not suddenly snap as in the "heat of passion" what we were discussing earlier.
I agreed that grandparents probably fed the children some info and I said they should not have been placed in their home due to the imo HUGE conflict of interest given they are sure he killed their daughter and there was an ongoing investigation I also understand why they were placed with the grandparents - to keep some normalcy for the children but I personally do not think they should have been placed with them.
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LexieBelle
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Actually, NO he DIDN'T fully cooperate. That's been the case since the beginning, the police have been vocal about that since the beginning.
He moved them WITH HIM, to a grandfather who is into kiddie [censored] and got busted, now THERE'S a way to avoid media glare. BAER.
Okay, I'll rectify/clarify that. When you KNOW someone and you SEE them and INTERACT with them and you hear their thoughts, you see their actions and you see stuff you know indicates something unhealthy and your "gut" says 'x, y, z'? Im gonna say 99.9% of the time? Your gut don't lie. In this case, the family's guts screamed. They KNOW him. My gut happens to scream because a) this happens to be my pet thing I follow/research and b) because well, I've got a lot of this type of thinking in my family, complete with attempted child abductions, plans to kill other people, threats of (and legitimate fear of) patricide and a suicide. Maybe it's the family history that makes me so fascinated with it. But, I'd stake my life he killed her. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. And I don't think he "snapped" and killed her, and I don't think he "snapped" and killed his kids. He's a cold, calculating, self-absorbed, SICK individual.
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gr8Dad
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First, I saw NO concrete timeline. A week ago? A month ago? What is the magic number that would define the line between "planned" and "snapped"? Anyone consider he only planned to kill himmself and the kids ran in the house and it blew up?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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NOOOOO, it was a PLANNED visit! He KNEW they were coming, so what? He was hoping to blow it up JUST before they got there? Sooo he's a sick fvck who wanted his kids to watch JUST HIM blow up?
PLUS you're forgetting the fact that he pushed the social worker OUT of the house and SLAMMED the door. So if he didn't KNOW what was going to occur AFTER they got there, WHY would he do that?
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gr8Dad
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" Actually, NO he DIDN'T fully cooperate. That's been the case since the beginning, the police have been vocal about that since the beginning."
Could you post a link to that because I have not seen anything but that he cooperated.
" He moved them WITH HIM, to a grandfather who is into kiddie [censored] and got busted, now THERE'S a way to avoid media glare. BAER"
HE DIDN'T KNOW HIS DAD WAS A PERVERT.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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" PLUS you're forgetting the fact that he pushed the social worker OUT of the house and SLAMMED the door."
False. The supervisor was locking the car when the kids ran to the house. By the time the supervisor got to the door, it was locked. The supervisor smelled gas, called her suervisor and the house blew up.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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"As the children got to the door, Powell pushed the social worker back, quickly brought the two boys inside and locked the door."
cnn.com/2012/02/06/us/washington-powell-explosion/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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LexieBelle
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"Troyer said Utah authorities might have been preparing criminal charges against Powell in connection with his wife's disappearance from their Utah home in December 2009, but he did not give details.
Buzz Nielsen, the police chief in West Valley City, Utah, whose department is investigating the disappearance of Susan Powell, said Sunday night that detectives were pursuing promising new avenues in the case and that he had hoped to seek charges by the end of the year.
"It's a circumstantial one," he said of the case, adding that his investigators had not shared their progress with Josh Powell."
"Powell answered the door, pulled the boys inside, slammed the door and locked it, Troyer said.
Denied entry, the caseworker immediately began banging on the doors and windows and called 911. She told police she thought she smelled gasoline."
"Asked if Josh Powell's death would forever preclude answers to his wife's disappearance, Sgt. Powell said it was important to "emphasize that Josh hasn't been cooperative with our investigation from the very beginning.""
seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017434073_powell06m.html
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LexieBelle
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That's just two articles. If you were to search back to when she FIRST disappeared, it was all over the place that he wasn't cooperating.. in fact, I'm surprised you don't recall that because, I'm fairly certain, we argued about that THEN (you had justifications for him NOT cooperating).
Soooo, separate news outlets indicate that he INTENDED to take the kids inside a place he KNEW he was going to incinerate and explode AND he very purposefully blocked protection of the children by the social worker.
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Miranda
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Ummm maybe because she had to get to the mine (or where ever he dumped the body) somehow, no? Helllooo, her dead body didn't poof and land in a mine. She had to have been transported to the mine somehow, ergo the trunk.
Really, the lengths in which you go...
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
Edited by Miranda (02/06/12 08:17 PM)
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annieo
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I tried to put a link up but I cannot get it to work however the reports state he had been giving the children's stuff and donating stuff for some time. The extensive emails he sent to people other then his attorney took more then a few seconds to construct, he also left instructions on how to deal with his affairs after his death.
Maybe I am thick in the head but that is PLANNING any way I look at it.
I live about 4 hours from where it happened and our news is full of it tonight and I get 4 stories in the local area of the website I read for news in addition to a ticker that has 2 additional reports.
My brother and sil live in Puyallup and it is all over their area.
I call it planning you call it heat of the moment and snapping - if you were to take it to court there is no way in he!! he could use that defense with all he did prior to the explosions. eta: had he lived and been charged with murder, attempted murder, however it turned out if anyone had survived.
Edited by annieo (02/06/12 08:54 PM)
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ssmom79
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[quote]"He already had the potential to kill, and he likely DID kill."
Based on what? The complete and total lack of evidence that he had anything to do with his wife missing?
"So CPS/courts couldn't "push" him to do what he'd had the capability to do and DID do (in all likelihood) before."
That is ridiculous. If NO ONE could EVER be pushed to do something they were not capable of, then there would be no reason for any "justifiable" cases or anything like that. Could you shoot someone? COuld you shoot someone if they had a gun to your child's head? So are you dangerous because you are CAPABLE of shooting someone, even though it is only under extreme situations? [/quote]
______________________________________________
The absolutely poor reference to which I was referring is regarding the questioning of whether LB could shoot someone holding a gun to her child's head and whether that made her dangerous. That is ridiculous and insinuates that ANYONE is capable of this and that simply is NOT TRUE. Anyone is NOT capable of this. I am not arguing justifiable reasons. I also don't see any justifiable reasons for this man to kill his family, so again, why are you even discussing whether someone is capable of killing under justifiable circumstances. There were no such circumstances here.
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annieo
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GRAHAM, Wash. (AP) — Josh Powell's boys were coming for a visit, and he had preparations to make.
He boxed up their books and toys and took them to a charity. He carried heavy cans of gasoline inside his house and set aside a hatchet.
He thought about what to write in the final emails he'd send out: where people could find his financial accounts, how they could shut off his utilities. He didn't mention his wife, Susan Powell, missing for the past two years.
When the boys finally arrived in a car driven by a social worker Sunday, everything was ready to go. They ran inside to see him. He locked the door before the social worker could reach it.
She could smell the gas, which by now was splashed throughout the home. She called for help. The flames rose.
As authorities continued searching through the charred rubble of the home Monday, they released new details about what they described as Powell's deliberation in killing himself and his children, who had been removed from his care — a horrifying climax to a long, bizarre saga. They found the two 5-gallon gas cans and a hatchet inside.
"This was definitely a deliberate, planned-out event," said Pierce County Sheriff's Detective Ed Troyer.
Smoke inhalation was the primary cause of death for Josh Powell and his two young sons, Pierce County Medical Examiner's Office investigator Melissa Baker said Monday evening.
But the boys also suffered "chop injuries" that contributed to their deaths — 7-year-old Charles was struck on his neck and 5-year-old Braden had injuries to both his head and neck, Baker said.
Troyer said investigators found a hatchet that they believe was used on the boys.
"We recovered a hatchet — a small ax," he said. "It was right there with them (the bodies)."
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If the man can chop his children up or whatever he did with the ax and their little bodies then he most certainly could have would have killed his wife....
So very sad for all involved and I pray the little ones are back with their mama.
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gr8Dad
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This article says he didn't push the supervisor out of the house.
I do find it interesting that the EVIDENCE in this case seems to make you think that he is guilty of a crime for which there is ZERO evidence.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
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I said he could have would have - I did not say he DID kill his wife and I know there is no evidence of him killing the wife BUT there is ample evidence he DID kill the children
I wasn't the one arguing whether he pushed the social worker out of the house I said I gave him a smidgen of credit for not killing he too even though I do not want to give him credit of any kind.
I also have said that the children should not have been kept from him as long as they had been unless there was info that the public had no knowledge about that would deem it necessary to keep them away.
I find it interesting that you still defend this man....
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LexieBelle
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THIS article doesn't say he did. The ones I posted DID. Even ones that don't say he pushed her whatever DO say he refused to allow her entry.
It's very simple. HE MURDERED HIS EFFIN CHILDREN! And this is the first article I've read where he used a fvcking HATCHET on them?
WTF is WRONG with you?? Seriously. How how HOW in holy hell can you remotely defend this douschebag?? HELL is too good for him. Seriously. Sickening. I seriously threw up in my mouth a little reading that he used a hatchet on them. Your defense of him is about to send me running to the toilet. Disgusting.
It's VERY simple. You do NOT murder your children because you cannot HAVE your children. WHATEVER the reason. But in THIS case, you are THE only suspect in the children's MOTHER'S MURDER. It's not fvcking complicated. And if you are "distraught" about not having your children, the answer is not to KILL them. All THAT does? Is prove what a selfish PRICK you are because then it is about YOU and what YOU want and what YOU cannot have. And perhaps, in this case, if he hadn't been a fvcking MORON and taking his TODDLER children to a FREEZING campsite after MIDNIGHT? Perhaps he wouldn't BE a suspect! Oh wait THE ONLY SUSPECT.
There's a CBS article.. google josh powell, it's the third one the article set that comes up at the top of the page. Watch the INTERVIEW with him, inset into the article. He killed her. No doubt. the STRANGEST part about it? He refers to HIMSELF as a "little boy" in it. Truly creepy..as he tried to work himself up to something remotely resembling tears for his missing wife and mother of his children. UGHHHHHH....
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SRS
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As weird as it sounds, I hoped the boys died instantly from the gas explosion. So, the last minutes of their short, innocent lives were absolutely horrible. Dad chopping them with a hatchet before they died of smoke inhalation.
THat is the most horrible thing I have ever heard.
I can only pray that they are now safe with their Mom watching over them.
He doesn't deserve any defense for anything at this point. No one can be pushed to premeditate this type of thing. If you miss your kids, you do whatever it takes to get them back. You don't do what he did.
I take my kiddos camping, btw. Only a couple of miles from where we live. We have gotten cold/wet and driven home in the middle of the night. After we get some sleep and warm back up, we clean up and head back out to the camp site. We've never left home at midnight to set up our tent.
Edited by SRS (02/07/12 04:21 AM)
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Goodmom
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[quote]Nope, direct comparison. "Justifiable" deaths are those under which there are extenuating circumstances that led to the death that are unlikely to be repeated under normal circumstances in the future. [/quote]
There is no justifiable death. Especially when one is MURDERING CHILDREN. Like the FATHER did in this case.
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Goodmom
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[quote]BTW, consider that you live in NEW YORK, they live in UTAH. New Yorkers don't go out in cold weather, Utah folks do. [/quote]
I mostly grew up in Utah. No way, no how, do sane people take almost 2 year olds out in freezing weather to go camping in THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.
Just not happening.
In fact, when I went camping in Utah with my family as a kid, we DIDN'T go in freezing weather. No one did. It's just not smart considering that it can get to 40 below 0 in some spots.
You are grasping at straws to DEFEND A MURDERER simply because he is a father. FYI, I knew the minute that I read the first post just how you were going to spend post after post attempting to justify this father's actions. Simply because he is a father. There is no justification. At all.
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Miranda
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The maternal grandparents along with a segment regarding this on the Today show now.
Very planned, very premeditated...by Josh. News stated that JOsh used a hatchett on them before the flames engulfed their small bodies. I think Josh did it to spite the grandparents.
Oh how sad, these poor grandparents and these poor boys, my heart just aches for them.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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gr8Dad
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"WTF is WRONG with you?? Seriously. How how HOW in holy hell can you remotely defend this douschebag??"
Never defended his actions with the kids. Merely pointed out that sometimes when you treat people like criminals when they have done nothing wrong, they lose all hope and things go bad...real bad.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"I mostly grew up in Utah. No way, no how, do sane people take almost 2 year olds out in freezing weather to go camping in THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT."
Well, I truly hope no one ever takes away YOUR children because you do something SOMEONE ELSE finds weird.
"You are grasping at straws to DEFEND A MURDERER simply because he is a father."
Nope, never defended his actions in regards to kill himself and the children. I think he was driven crazy by the constant attacks on him about the disappearence of his wife (BTW, there is ABSOLUTELY no proof she is dead), and sunk into a deep depression over losing his kids for something he had NOTHING to do with.
"FYI, I knew the minute that I read the first post just how you were going to spend post after post attempting to justify this father's actions. Simply because he is a father. There is no justification. At all."
Of course there is no justification for a father. In your eyes, there never is...
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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ssmom79
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Merely pointed out that sometimes when you treat people like criminals when they have done nothing wrong, they lose all hope and things go bad...real bad.
__________________________________________
You are actually defending this man....you've said several times how he was driven to this by the media, total BS, he was not driven to that. NO WAY WOULD I EVER BELIEVE THAT. And when YOU learn he used a HATCHET on his children, his own flesh and blood, and you still deflect attention back to the murder of his wife??? Seriously gr8, I must know how do you feel about a parent murdering and committing suicide in the manner that this man did with his children. Cause right now, I'm getting the feeling you think this man was some victim driven to desperation. Is that really how you are seeing this man's actions against his children? Please let me know what you think about this act?
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gr8Dad
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"You are actually defending this man....you've said several times how he was driven to this by the media, total BS, he was not driven to that. NO WAY WOULD I EVER BELIEVE THAT."
Oh, so NO ONE could EVER be driven to act in an insane manner? Chopping at your kids and blowing up your home with them inside is the act of a SANE person? Come ON!
"Cause right now, I'm getting the feeling you think this man was some victim driven to desperation. Is that really how you are seeing this man's actions against his children? Please let me know what you think about this act?"
No, I think he did a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE thing. But I also think the media and the family court share in the blame for creating a situation where an individual was stripped of EVERYTHING that they lived for, their life turned upside down and DESTROYED, with ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence.
When you remove the very reason a person lives for, you make that person a VERY VERY dangerous person. And there was NO end in sight. They set GOALS for him to reach for, then moved the goals when he reached them. He was punished because his FATHER was a pervert, he was CONVICTED in the news for the missing wife, and there was no end in site.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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You're so full of shyt.
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gr8Dad
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SO make a case for the removal of the children. What did HE do that warranted taking his kids? He moved to his Dad's house, when his Dad was arrested, he refused bail and cut off contact, then eventually moved out.
Okay, forget TAKING the kids, make a case for KEEPING the kids. He followed the rules, did the work, etc. Oops, court changed their mind, now you got to do more, all the while, we are going to leave your kids with the people who are feeding them that YOU killed your wife.
Oh, and FTR, you keep harping on the "fact" that you "know" he killed her...there isn't even proof that she is DEAD, much less that he killed her.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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The children were taken to investigate the grandfather which is the norm when there are questions about the home environment.
The imo children should have been returned if/when no other issues were discovered there HAD to be other circumstances the general public know little to nothing about. As I said before the courts add things all.the.time. when they feel it is necessary to protect the children.
He WAS working toward reunification the children were going there TWICE a week, which is A LOT and shows he is being reunited sooner then later.
The court decided to add the evaluation and those evaluations can take some time to obtain but again they would not have ordered it WITHOUT additional issues arising and we are not privy to that information as the case includes minors and CPS is NOT allowed to share that information - the one who could have shared the information is DEAD so I guess we will never know.
I agree you are defending him and an insane person persecuted in the media may do some things in the heat of the moment but this guy PLANNED this for some time.
eta: I do not think the children should have been placed in the grandparents home - to much of a conflict and I understand the reasoning but it was wrong because I do believe the grandparents talked to the children and were fed or asked questions in a manner they should not have been
Edited by annieo (02/07/12 09:37 AM)
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ssmom79
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Oh, so NO ONE could EVER be driven to act in an insane manner? Chopping at your kids and blowing up your home with them inside is the act of a SANE person? Come ON!
______________________
Let's focus here gr8....let's not start adding absolutes and changing the parameters of the argument to include ANY PERSON...let's stick to this man.
I believe this man, who is the man we are discussing, I am not discussing other people, other situations, I am discussing THIS person who I do not believe in any way, shape, or form, was driven to commit this act. Nope, sorry I am not buying it.
But I also think the media and the family court share in the blame for creating a situation where an individual was stripped of EVERYTHING that they lived for, their life turned upside down and DESTROYED, with ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence.
______________________________
Nope, I completely disagree with you there. But thank you for acknowledging this man did a horrible thing...even though you continue to blame other people for the acts he committed himself. Wow, can we blame the media for everything??? Seems to be a common blame. Oh, it was the media! Makes you wonder how people in the media ever make it without killing their kids all the time...
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ssmom79
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I would not kill my children. I have heard of mothers and fathers doing it and I'm sorry, there is NO JUSTIFIABLE reason for it. PERIOD. Sorry, not taking a hatchet to my kids. Just ain't happening. I'd kill myself 100 times before I ever did that to my children. Yates, Smith, Powell....all the same in my book. Murderers who deserve the same treatment as their children, death.
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LexieBelle
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He is the ONLY suspect in the childrens' mother's MURDER. She's not alive. After a certain period, and given fact (like she left her cell AND her purse behind, and oh yeah, her KIDS), there is a presumption that the person IS DEAD.
And, APPARENTLY, the legal system WAS planning on some action relative to that, shortly which is something that the family court may have been aware of. I would assume they were.
And what I don't get about you? Is you have her family saying they KNEW this would happen. Obviously there were SIGNS this would happen. And I absolutely, 10000000% believe that they DID know, they WERE right and no nothing "pushed" him into doing jackshyt. He is an EVIL PERSON. He killed his wife and he has brutally killed his children too.
There's no justification, there's no excusing it, there's no "oh poor baby he was persecuted and they DROVE him to it". That's BULLSHYT.
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Cassie23
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Found this read interesting since there was talk that the grandparents put things in the children's head.
An attorney for the parents of missing Utah mother, Susan Cox Powell, said the woman’s children whose bodies were discovered Sunday in a fatal home explosion recently started talking about the night their mother vanished.
The attorney, Steve Downing, said the oldest boy recalled his mother being in the trunk.
“Charlie had been asked along with other members of [his] class to draw a picture of something they did in summer,” Downing said. “At some point he drew a picture of the family van. The dad was driving the van, he and his brother were in the backseat and mom was in the trunk.”
Susan Powell's sister Denise Cox told HLN’s Nancy Grace that the boys were increasingly able to verbalize what they remembered.
"Actually, the boys at first when my parents received custody of them they didn't talk that much," Denise Cox said, "but over the last few months they started opening up and talking to my parents about what happened that night and my parents would relay it back to me."
Cox said Josh Powell did not permit the boys to talk about their mother or to mention her name.
The bodies of the two children, Charles, 7, and Braden, 5, were found in their father Josh Powell's Pallyup, Wa. Home, after he allegedly ignited the explosive blast during a court-ordered visitation.
Police say Josh Powell, who had been named a person of interest in the disappearance and suspected murder of his wife Susan Cox Powell, was also killed in the blast along with the boys.
Firefighters who responded to the scene found the Powell home engulfed in flames and nearly charred to its frame. The bodies were discovered in the living room. The blast shook nearby homes, rattled windows and spewed debris onto lawns located blocks away.
A social worker who brought the Powell boys to Josh Powell's home Sunday reportedly told police that Powell let the boys inside, then blocked her from entering and locked the door. The social worker reportedly pounded on the door and immediately contacted supervisors to report the incident. She reportedly told supervisors she noticed the smell of gas outside the home.
The home exploded moments later. The social worker was not injured.
According to police, Josh Powell sent e-mails to multiple people confirming that he planned the deadly blast. Jeffrey Bassett, the attorney who had been handling Powell's child custody case says he too received an e-mail from his client minutes before the explosion saying "I'm sorry, goodbye."
Police say the blast was fueled using accelerants spread throughout the home.
Josh Powell allegedly told police he took his two boys, then ages 2 and 4, on a Sunday night camping trip. Powell told police he returned home that Monday evening in December 2009 to find his wife missing.
Powell was never charged in connection with his wife's disappearance, but lost custody of their children after his father Steve Powell was arrested on charges of child pornography and voyeurism. The boys had been living with their maternal grandparents.
Denise Cox speculates that Josh Powell drugged his sister before her death.
"I believe he drugged her so it didn't seem unnatural for the boys when he took her," she said.
"I believe he told them that they were going to go look for mines and I believe he buried her somewhere out wherever he went."
Cox said from what she gathers from her parents, the Powell boys had been talking about how their mother went into a mine to look for crystals and never came out.
Autopsies on the three bodies are scheduled Monday.
Police continue to investigate the disappearance of Susan Cox Powell.
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annieo
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Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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GRAHAM, Wash. (AP) — Before setting his house ablaze and killing himself and his two young sons, Josh Powell left a voicemail for family members saying he couldn't live without the boys and didn't want to go on anymore.
ABC News obtained what it says was a voicemail Powell left for his family members. In the recording played Tuesday on "Good Morning America" Powell also said he was calling to say goodbye and apologize.
"I'm sorry to everyone I've hurt," he is heard saying. "Goodbye."
Powell, the husband of missing Utah woman Susan Powell, died along with his children Sunday in Washington. An autopsy showed the children also suffered hatchet wounds to their necks. He was a person of interest in his wife's 2009 disappearance.
As authorities work to determine exactly why Powell committed the murders at the Washington residence, investigators said they're no closer to answering the question they've had for two years.
"We still haven't identified or found where Susan Powell is," said West Valley, Utah, Police Chief Buzz Nielsen, who is in charge of the investigation into the young mother's disappearance.
The father of the 5- and 7-year-old boys painted himself as a tortured man, ridiculed without reason in the disappearance of his wife, steadfastly insisting he was innocent until the end.
Yet the investigation and autopsy reports released late Monday show the acts of a violent man who meticulously planned the double murder-suicide of himself and his two young sons, culminating Sunday in Powell setting his house ablaze and taking a hatchet to his children's necks.
For now, even with the longtime "person of interest" in the probe dead, police say the case remains open, though some mysteries may never be solved.
Powell's horrific murder-suicide seemed to come out of nowhere. Just days before, in a motion seeking custody of his children filed with a Washington state court, Powell said he missed his wife, and would remain strong for the boys.
"A lesser person would fall under the intense scrutiny I am facing, but apparently my inherent resilience as a person makes it increasingly difficult for them to pursue their agendas," Powell wrote. "I am standing tall for my sons, but it deeply hurts to face such ridicule and abuse.
"I know my own heart is free of any guilt regardless of what people claim," he added.
Things changed dramatically when the judge ruled against him, ordering the children to remain with Susan Powell's parents for now.
On Sunday, Powell's boys came for a routine supervised visit. They ran ahead, the social worker falling behind. Powell then locked the door, used a hatchet on his kids, and lit the house on fire.
Ultimately, Powell and both boys died of smoke inhalation, Pierce County Medical Examiner's Office investigator Melissa Baker said Monday evening.
But they also suffered "chop injuries" that contributed to their deaths — 7-year-old Charles was struck on his neck and 5-year-old Braden had injuries to both his head and neck, Baker said.
Pierce County Sheriff's Detective Ed Troyer said investigators found a hatchet that they believe was used on the boys.
"We recovered a hatchet — a small ax," he said. "It was right there with" the bodies.
Authorities also said Powell had made thorough plans well ahead of the murders.
"This was definitely a deliberate, planned-out event," Troyer said.
He said minutes before the fire, Powell sent emails to several people saying, "I'm sorry. Goodbye." To others, including his cousins and pastor, he sent longer emails, with instructions on where to find his money and how to shut off his utilities. In at least one email, he wrote that he couldn't live without his boys, Troyer said.
But, he added, "There's no indication about Susan in anything that we've found so far."
Nielsen said detectives want to question Powell's father, Steve Powell, about Susan's disappearance. He described Steve Powell as another "person of interest" but noted the elder Powell is "not in our sights" in terms of any potentially imminent arrest.
Steve Powell has been in jail on voyeurism and child [censored] charges since last fall after authorities found explicit images on his computers during a search of his home in the case of his missing daughter-in-law.
After his arrest, the state turned the boys over to Susan Powell's parents, Charles and Judy Cox.
Steve Powell claimed on national television last year to have had a flirtatious or even sexual relationship with Susan — something her family has adamantly denied.
Josh Powell claimed that the night his wife vanished in December 2009, he took the boys from their West Valley City home, about 10 miles outside Salt Lake City, on a midnight camping trip in freezing temperatures — a story her parents never believed. Authorities searched the area in the central Utah desert but came up empty.
Less than a month after the disappearance, Josh Powell moved the boys to his father's home in Puyallup, south of Seattle.
Sunday's tragedy left the Coxes devastated. They spoke to reporters Monday to give a glimpse of the lives the boys led.
They said the boys played happily and didn't want to visit their father when the time came for their weekly Sunday visit. But Judy Cox said she talked them into going — and she now regrets it.
Charles Cox said he didn't necessarily think there was any more the court could have done legally to protect his grandchildren. However, he said he didn't like that there was only one supervisor during their visits with their father.
"We suspected that if he had the boys in his control, with him, and he felt the police were closing in, he was capable (of hurting them)," Cox said. "We didn't like that there was only one supervisor. Frankly, she couldn't have stopped him if he wanted to do something."
The boys were emotionally distant when they first arrived at their grandparents' home, Charles Cox said, but recently they had become warmer. And that gave the grandparents hope that maybe someday they would be able to relate what happened to their mother.
"They were like little robots. If you asked them about mommy, they would run away," he said. But "in the last week, I could not sit down without them climbing up on my lap."
Charles Cox said that the summer after his daughter disappeared, Braden drew a picture at day care of a van with three people in it, and told caregivers who asked him about it that it was a picture of his family going camping: "Mommy's in the trunk," the boy reportedly said.
But the boys had not recently made more comments to that effect, Charles Cox said, contradicting earlier remarks by his lawyer, Steve Downing, who told The Associated Press that the older child had recently mentioned their mother being in the trunk.
Nielsen said Utah authorities would continue with their investigation, and hoped to make an arrest in the Susan Powell case this year.
"On a criminal case of this nature, you've got one shot. You've got to make sure everything is done right," Nielsen said. "Our case is not closed."
___
Brian Skoloff reported from Salt Lake City, Utah. Reporter Gene Johnson contributed from Seattle.
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My childhood friend lives in Graham and said that they cannot believe this happened, that the grandfather was always a strange one but the dad seemed "normal"
We will never know the whole of the situation but we do know he murdered his children and he did not just blow them up he used a hatchet that contributed to their deaths.
By his own admission he said he is not a lesser person and is resilient and that the agenda of the investigation was difficult to continue due to his resilience. He did not snap he was in his right mind and murdered his children with malice and cruelty.
It appears to be that he couldn't live without his boys so if he couldn't no one else would live with them and that is beyond selfish and wrong - he murdered innocent children no way around that and he said he was resilient, he was working toward getting them back I guess he wanted them back NOW and couldn't wait....
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gr8Dad
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"I do not believe in any way, shape, or form, was driven to commit this act."
Right, cause killing your kids is completely sane.
"even though you continue to blame other people for the acts he committed himself"
I did not BLAME them, I said they contributed to the situation. The act he committed was HIS, solely.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"He is the ONLY suspect in the childrens' mother's MURDER."
First, he is a "person of interest" not a suspect, second, there is NO murder, as there is NO evidence she is dead, merely a missing person.
"She's not alive. After a certain period, and given fact (like she left her cell AND her purse behind, and oh yeah, her KIDS), there is a presumption that the person IS DEAD."
You mean like the 7 year old from the pacific tsunami that just turned up?
"And, APPARENTLY, the legal system WAS planning on some action relative to that, shortly which is something that the family court may have been aware of. I would assume they were."
Shame he lives in AMERICA and we are innocent until proven guilty.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Cassie23
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My stomach was turning...he used hatchets, in part, to end their lives? If they died of smoke inhalation then in those last moments they were dealing with the pain from the wounds as well. Just horrific and just plain evil. I wonder if those boys were talking about their grandparents to him and his father became jealous and nervous of what they may reveal? My son often talks about his Grandpa, and he will just say, "I love Grandpa". Their father was sick, there are no excuses for what he did.
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gr8Dad
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Now lets look at the inconsistencies and flip flops in the story:
"Before setting his house ablaze and killing himself and his two young sons, Josh Powell left a voicemail for family members saying he couldn't live without the boys and didn't want to go on anymore."
So he did this right before setting the blaze. But it was the voicemails and Emails that were used to "prove" that he PLANNED this. Sounds like a snap action to me. But lets read on:
"The father of the 5- and 7-year-old boys painted himself as a tortured man, ridiculed without reason in the disappearance of his wife, steadfastly insisting he was innocent until the end."
He didn't PAINT himself this way, he WAS being harrassed.
"Yet the investigation and autopsy reports released late Monday show the acts of a violent man who meticulously planned the double murder-suicide of himself and his two young sons, culminating Sunday in Powell setting his house ablaze and taking a hatchet to his children's necks."
Okay, so NOW he meticulously planned it. Okay, got it. lets read on:
"Powell's horrific murder-suicide seemed to come out of nowhere. Just days before, in a motion seeking custody of his children filed with a Washington state court, Powell said he missed his wife, and would remain strong for the boys."
Oh, okay, so now it came out of nowhere. Okay, got it, snap action, got it. Lets read on:
"He said minutes before the fire, Powell sent emails to several people saying, "I'm sorry. Goodbye." To others, including his cousins and pastor, he sent longer emails, with instructions on where to find his money and how to shut off his utilities. In at least one email, he wrote that he couldn't live without his boys, Troyer said."
Okay, so he sent the Emails out right before the fire, got it, snap reaction.
"They said the boys played happily and didn't want to visit their father when the time came for their weekly Sunday visit. But Judy Cox said she talked them into going — and she now regrets it."
Okay, so the kids didn't WANT to go, she MADE them, got it, lets read on:
"On Sunday, Powell's boys came for a routine supervised visit. They ran ahead, the social worker falling behind. Powell then locked the door, used a hatchet on his kids, and lit the house on fire."
They ran ahead (yeah, sounds like kids that don't want to see their father). Well, there goes the idea that he Forced the supervisor out of the house.
Bottom line, you got 100 different source, everyone scrambling to have the LATEST news, and in doing so, it gets all jumbled up. So we REALLY do not know anything but that he killed himself and the kids (horrible act).
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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" Just horrific and just plain evil."
Or, more likely, insane. Oh, wait, you said that here, "Their father was sick". But wait, then you said, "there are no excuses for what he did" INSANITY is an excuse.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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ssmom79
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"I do not believe in any way, shape, or form, was driven to commit this act."
Right, cause killing your kids is completely sane.
______________________________________
I'm sorry, I seem to be missing the net to make this leap. Sane? Who is discussing the sanity of this matter? I stated, clearly, I don't believe he was driven to do this by the media, something you've stated several times attributed to this heinous act.
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 2161
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He gave all of the kids toys away and transferred money from his accounts to someone elses. He bought enough cans of gas to set his home on fire. He hurt his kids with a hatchet. That is premeditated.
I would NEVER, EVER even think of killing my children. I chose to bring them into the world. I would do anything to ensure they have the best lives possible.
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ssmom79
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I'd kill myself 100 times before I ever did that to my children.
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SRS
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 11/05/10
Posts: 2161
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Exactly and I'd do whatever the court deemed necessary to get them back. Stupid classes, psychological exams, whatever it took.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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"Before setting his house ablaze and killing himself and his two young sons, Josh Powell left a voicemail for family members saying he couldn't live without the boys and didn't want to go on anymore."
So he did this right before setting the blaze. But it was the voicemails and Emails that were used to "prove" that he PLANNED this. Sounds like a snap action to me. But lets read on:
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It does not say he wrote the emails etc RIGHT before - he did it before he set it ablaze I doubt he could have done it AFTER he set the house ablaze - oh yeah maybe he was to busy CHOPPING the children with a HATCHET...
Voice mail and email are not necessarily checked as soon as they are received otherwise he could have just called whomever up and had a nice friendly chat saying "hey I'm going to kill me and the boys and I am going to be especially cruel and chop my children with a hatchet to add to their cause of death so don't bother calling me back cause we won't be here" ANYONE can send an email and or leave a voice mail and most know when the recipient is not available to take the call or email.
PLANNED
Harassed - seeking sympathy either one is possible but lets remember his OWN words - he is resilient and NOT a lesser person
"Powell's horrific murder-suicide seemed to come out of nowhere. Just days before, in a motion seeking custody of his children filed with a Washington state court, Powell said he missed his wife, and would remain strong for the boys."
Oh, okay, so now it came out of nowhere. Okay, got it, snap action, got it. Lets read on:
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Planning it and coming out of nowhere - he obviously wasn't going to tell people BEFORE hand and he knew the children would be there at that time and he let the CPS worker live
PLANNED
"He said minutes before the fire, Powell sent emails to several people saying, "I'm sorry. Goodbye." To others, including his cousins and pastor, he sent longer emails, with instructions on where to find his money and how to shut off his utilities. In at least one email, he wrote that he couldn't live without his boys, Troyer said."
Okay, so he sent the Emails out right before the fire, got it, snap reaction.
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He had EXTENSIVE email and how to deal with his affairs - how does one do that minutes before - they write them up and then send them at the time that they go through with the plan
PLANNED
I DO NOT think the children should have been with the grandparents - due to the conflict and the grandparents assumptions that he killed their daughter and given what the paternal grandfather did in the home (p orn) the maternal grandparents were being continually put on an emotional roller coaster and their judgement is clouded and biased.
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
Posts: 2003
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Why are you talking about no evidence that he killed his wife, too? He took a hatchet to his kids and blew up the house when they started drawing pictures at daycare, showing their mother in the trunk of the van. What more do you need??? Good Lord. You are the one with inconsistencies and flip flopping. Wow. Unbelievable.
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Gecko
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From news.y a h o o.com/dad-killed-self-sons-blaze-left-voicemail-124521510.html:
"The father of the 5- and 7-year-old boys painted himself as a tortured man, ridiculed without reason in the disappearance of his wife, steadfastly insisting he was innocent until the end.
Yet the investigation and autopsy reports released late Monday show the acts of a violent man who meticulously planned the double murder-suicide of himself and his two young sons, culminating Sunday in Powell setting his house ablaze and taking a hatchet to his children's necks."
I'm confused here (not really), but since when does 'crazy' mean 'stupid'?
Jim Jones was 'crazy', but the leader of the "Peoples Temple" wasn't stupid when he planned the deaths of almost a 1000 of his followers.
David Koresh was 'crazy', but stupid doesn't built a massive compound and rigged it with explosives.
[censored] Harris and Dylan Klebold...they went off the 'deep end' too...and took 12 of their classmates and a teacher with them. They planned their attack...and suicides.
Seung-Hui Cho and Charles Whitman...two more 'cracker jacks' who were also NOT stupid; between the two of them, they killed almost 50 people and wounded more 50.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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sally1234
enthusiast
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Posts: 237
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Seriously - when you are in a hole stop digging. You can label this anything you want and parse words. This was pure evei and no amount of you changing the meaning of words or circumstances will change the fact this guy was a creep, evil and as despicable a human that has walked this earth. Spare me what he was put through - these were innocent children...sickening.
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gr8Dad
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Maybe you should read about this before joining the grown up conversations. The children did NOT draw pictures of Mommy in the trunk. One of the kids drew the car with three people in it. Then, SUPPOSEDLY, when asked where Mommy was, the kid said "Mommy is on. the trunk.". Never verified and only delivered to the news by double hearsay
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 2003
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BAER. Maybe you should stop defending a freaking murderer.
“Charlie had been asked along with other members of [his] class to draw a picture of something they did in summer,” Downing said. “At some point he drew a picture of the family van. The dad was driving the van, he and his brother were in the backseat and mom was in the trunk.”
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gr8Dad
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Something you did during the summer? Wow, so they went camping in SUB zero temps in the SUMMER?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
Posts: 2003
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You have 43 posts in this thread and you still don't get it? You would argue with a stop sign, your gf sure is one lucky lady. ;-)
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gr8Dad
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And when unable to refute, you turn to personal attacks...I must be submit.g, lol.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Miranda
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Loc: North of Mexico
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There is nothing to refute really, you are being intentionally obtuse.
Kids, especially small kids, have no sense of time. I cannot even imagine telling a kid that what he is saying is not true because he got he season wrong. Give me a break. Doesn't change the fact that the kid consistently says "my mom was in the trunk".
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
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Exactly, it was the child's way of coping with the loss of his mother and putting into a drawing what he saw and remembered from that night. Unprovoked.
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LeAnne
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Loc: missouri
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not towards anyone...but I have never seen a mini van with a trunk?
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Empty Nesting
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LexieBelle
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True, but you're talking a 7 and 5 year old, ages NOW. What do you call that section in the back? I'm 42 and I'M not sure what to call it. To a child, it's the back, the back of cars are "trunks" so.. "trunk". Would also explain inconsistency between "car" and "trunk".
the latest is his message was "I couldn't go on without my sons". Great, kill YOURSELF. When you take the children WITH you, it's about YOU. And reality is, he DID see them, he DID have at least some access and was working towards custody again.
for me, NOTHING would ever convince me he "snapped" or was "pushed" into it or whatever. He killed his kids, he killed his wife, end of story. Hell is too good for him.
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LeAnne
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Around here they call it the cargo area. Just saying Matt would look at me funny if I told him the people were having problems in the trunk or trunk lid of their mini van.
It could be called something different in different places?
Like soda/pop
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Empty Nesting
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annieo
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Loc: Pacific Northwest
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When some one snaps (at least in legal terms) it is in the moment not someone who sent out emails, voice mails, donated stuff to charity etc... Some of the emails were extensive so there was thought, time, planning that went into those. He left instructions how to deal with his affairs. He knew when the children would be there - that in itself took planning, they had to be on schedule for him to get the gas explosion timed correctly (lets not forget the having the hatchet available) one little spark in a gas filled house (just opening the door) and it all goes up - he probably researched gas explosions and how much how long the gas must build - AND he did not kill the CPS worker - Planned Planned Planned - no snapping - no way no how will I ever believe he snapped.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I always called the back of my mini-van the back of the van as in "it's in the back of the van"
I did ask my son what the back part of the neighbors van was and he said "the trunk" - I have a PT Cruiser and I asked him what was the back area and he said "the trunk" which is strange but I think it may be because we had a car with a trunk when he was born and then when he was 7 I got the PT so that is what he learned and it stuck???
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Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Loc: North of Mexico
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[quote]not towards anyone...but I have never seen a mini van with a trunk? [/quote]
If you said the trunk of a minivan I, and everyone else, would know exactly what you meant. It is the trunk, trunk area, area of a minivan where stuff that goes in a trunk would be, etc.
I drove an Excursion for many years and I called the back of my truck a trunk, but now I guess it was no different from the back of a minivan.
So basically now that we are talking about trunks, does anyone with a van or SUV have a trunk? It's really no different.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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Miranda
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IF you said "cargo area" to me I would immediately think of an aircraft, since my husband is in the USAF and a pilot LOL...
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
Edited by Miranda (02/07/12 04:59 PM)
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Goodmom
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/17/07
Posts: 2015
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You said:
Well, I truly hope no one ever takes away YOUR children because you do something SOMEONE ELSE finds weird.
My response:
Says the person who doesn't live in Utah.
You said:
Nope, never defended his actions in regards to kill himself and the children.
My response:
Oh, yes, you did. And still are. No surprise there.
You said:
Of course there is no justification for a father. In your eyes, there never is...
My response:
I also think that there is no justification for a mother murdering her children, either.....
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M5M5
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Are you saying that all murderers are insane?? I don't believe that. There are just some ppl that are TRULY evil. I think this guy is one of them. No excuse for what he did at all. You may have a point if he only took out HIMSELF. Instead, he tried to chop up his kids with a hatchet before setting them on fire. Sorry. That's just evil.
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Miranda
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Loc: North of Mexico
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It has now been released that Josh [censored] his boys' throats before he blew up the home. I hope he is writhing in hell right now.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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MrsB
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<<Are you saying that all murderers are insane?? I don't believe that. There are just some ppl that are TRULY evil. I think this guy is one of them. No excuse for what he did at all. You may have a point if he only took out HIMSELF. Instead, he tried to chop up his kids with a hatchet before setting them on fire. Sorry. That's just evil.
>>
I agree. Excusing it with "being insane" takes any responsibility away. I do believe some are truly insane - others, purely evil.
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gr8Dad
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Jesus FVCKING Christ, how many times do I have to say I am NOT excusing what he did to the kids and himself?
Of course, Andrea Yates was driven crazy by her husband, and the burning bed chick was driven crazy by her abusive husband. But THIS GUY takes the full weight, despite the FACT that he has been ABUSED by the police and family courts CONSTANTLY over the last three years. BAER
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
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Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I believe he has only had the family court involved for 4 months or so.
Abused by the police - I thought he was being abused by the media - according to your previous posts...
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gr8Dad
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"I believe he has only had the family court involved for 4 months or so."
Oh, only four months without his kids for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG. Well, thats fine.
And he was abused by the media BECAUSE of the police.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
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Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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"Oh, only four months without his kids for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG. Well, thats fine."
Three years is different then 4 months and the children were taken to make sure the environment was safe - the would have been returned if there was not something we are not privy to occurring - CPS is not in the business of keeping children from their parents if the environment is safe for the children. It is protocol to remove children when there is questionable activities going on in the home so yeah they removed them. They should have been returned once all was declared ok - they were not so there HAD to have been SOMETHING for the delay and the continued delays.
He was NOT singled out - a situation arose in the home he and the children resided in and it wasn't cleared yet, however whatever the "it" was that kept the children away was being rectified if he was having twice a week in the home visits - he just couldn't wait so he chopped them with a hatchet and murdered them.....
Maybe he knew something was going to keep the children away permanently and he did what he did - we will never know because only he could relay the information and he chose murder suicide instead - CPS cannot reveal nor can the courts.
OR maybe he is just an EVIL person.
You are defending him - you have stated how he was abused, harassed etc... and now he committed a horrible act (your words) but you still want to say he did it because of what he was going through - he planned and executed his children because he wanted to - who the he!! chops their children with a hatchet and blows them up because the media was talking about them?? His own words he states he is not a lesser person and is resilient so he wasn't nearly as bothered by the press as you appear to be.
I would say the same about a woman who did what he has done but I doubt (and I could be wrong) you would defend a woman as you have this murdering man.
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 2003
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Why do you keep insisting that he did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG?
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MrsB
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I truly do not understand how anyone can condone or excuse such behavior.
I don't care WHAT someone is going through. You do not do that. Period.
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LexieBelle
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He hasn't been abused. He's been investigated.
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gr8Dad
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When they took his kids, he had done nothing wrong.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
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How can you be so sure of that?
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ssmom79
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Well I've read his very vocal opinion about Andrea Yates and its quite different from this victimized father thing he's got going on in this thread.
Gr8 is very transparent. Objective? No. But transparent, definitely.
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LexieBelle
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Someone in the home where he had his children living HAD. And as AnnieO said, I suspect there is far more that we do NOT know.
And even IF you are right and he was harassed or whatever, you DO NOT KILL YOUR CHILDREN! He took a HATCHET to his babies. The things he SUPPOSEDLY loved sooooo much.
There's ZERO way to justify or yes, EXCUSE, what he's done. And your arguments are just that, AN EXCUSE.
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nope
member
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Posts: 148
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Now, it turns out his wife was having a sexual love affair with her father in law. The father in law, HIS FATHER, is now the "person of interest." God Golly Geeze, can this get any worse? If the man learned Saturday, that his father was having an "obsessed" love affair with his wife, and was ALSO seeking custody of his own kids, and was also talking badly in the media about him, also had CPS on his heels whenever he made a move with his kids (the father in law acted like the children were HIS kids with his daughter in law), I can say he went INSANE. A person can be legally insane for days even weeks. The man was insane, with anger. My God, she was having an afair with his father, who was arrested last fall on a sex crime (and will soon be aressted for his wife's murder) and also seeking custody of his KIDS. He went insane
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annieo
veteran
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Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Have you even READ the news reports or is a reading comprehension issue...
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nope
member
Reged: 12/31/11
Posts: 148
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It is BREAKING NEWS, do you have a TV?
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Actually it was BREAKING news Sunday and yep I have a television and I even have local reports given I am about 4 hours away from Graham and Puyallup and have family in Puyallup and a good friend in Graham so yeah I have a few reports and information - just curious where you are getting YOUR information because it is rather off base in some areas.
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annieo
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Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Here's today's BREAKING news
OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) — Utah authorities have for at least six months investigated the disappearance of Susan Powell as a murder case. But without a body, they publicly held out hope that she would be found alive.
So what evidence did they have that the mother of two was dead? And was there anything to identify her killer?
There was the damp spot on the floor in their Utah home and a curious late-night camping trip described by her husband. There were also the recollections of their young son Braden about a camping trip and his mother being "in the trunk."
That could strike some as a clue, or the ramblings of a boy who was then just 2.
For authorities in Utah, none of it was enough to bring charges.
The man identified by investigators as a "person of interest" — Powell's husband Josh — had already moved from Utah to Washington state, taking with him their two young sons. On Sunday, he torched his house, killing himself and the boys.
Now, as authorities try to determine what led him to take such a drastic measure, many questions remain about the status of the investigation into Susan Powell's 2009 disappearance and how close they were to bringing charges.
A Washington state search warrant obtained by The Associated Press through a public records request Tuesday showed that police were investigating three felonies in Utah: first-degree murder, kidnapping and obstructing a public servant.
Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill acknowledged for the first time that they believe Powell is likely dead, but he said in an interview with the AP that the case remains a missing persons probe for now.
Gill wouldn't discuss the evidence but said authorities didn't have enough information to file charges.
"I think when I talk about it as a missing persons case, that's because we haven't located the body of Susan Powell," Gill said. "Do we think that she may have met harm? Sure. I think that's been an ongoing assumption with law enforcement."
Investigators say Josh Powell withdrew $7,000 in cash from a bank the day before he killed himself and his two young sons in a house fire in Washington state.
Pierce County Prosecutor Mark Lindquist said detectives obtained Powell's bank records Monday, and on Tuesday they searched a storage unit he rented. It isn't clear what happened to the money.
Josh Powell claimed that on the night Susan Powell vanished, he took sons Charlie and Braden from their home in West Valley City, Utah, on a late-night camping trip.
When Utah authorities traveled to Washington following the fatal Sunday blaze that killed 7-year-old Charlie and 5-year-old Braden, they didn't specifically address what may have been said by the boys.
West Valley, Utah, Police Chief Buzz Nielsen said authorities needed concrete evidence to move forward.
"When you charge on criminal cases, especially if it ends up being a homicide ... without a body, it's just more difficult. You have to have a stronger case to make those arguments in court," Nielsen said Monday.
"We have circumstantial evidence that I'm not allowed to talk about it," he said. "On a criminal case of this nature you've got one shot, beyond a reasonable doubt in court."
Last September, authorities got a warrant to search the home of Josh Powell's father, Steve. Josh Powell and his sons were living there at the time. The documents obtained by the AP did not specify a suspect.
In addition to the charges, the warrant listed Steve Powell's work laptop computer as well as cars that he used.
Authorities found explicit images on his computers during the search, and he was jailed on voyeurism and child [censored] charges. The boys were later sent to live with Susan Powell's parents.
Speaking to reporters Monday after the boys' deaths, their grandfather Charles Cox said the boys were emotionally distant when they first arrived at their home but recently had begun to open up.
That gave Charles Cox hope that someday they would be able say what happened to their mom.
The boys had not recently made more comments about what may have happened to their mother, Charles Cox said, though he related what Braden said nearly two years ago.
Cox said: "The four ladies that were supervising that activity said, 'Well, what's this?' 'That's us going camping.' 'Who's in the car?' And Braden said, 'That's Daddy, that's Charlie, that's me.' Then he said, 'Well, mommy's in the trunk.'
"Well if Mommy's in the trunk, why is she in the trunk?' He didn't know, he didn't say, I guess. Then, he said we stopped somewhere and mommy and daddy got out and mommy didn't come back," Cox said.
Nielsen said despite the death of the young boys and Josh Powell, the probe would continue.
"Our case is not closed," the police chief said.
Lindquist, who is overseeing the voyeurism prosecution of Steve Powell but is not directly involved in the Susan Powell case, said it's clear to him that it's a homicide case.
"I don't think at this point I'm going to call this a missing person case," he said. "It's reasonable to call Josh Powell's decision to kill himself and his kids a confession to the murder of Susan Powell."
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I don't know about calling it a confession but it is incredibly suspect....
Gr8 will say it isn't suspect and that Powell did it because he was abused by the media via the police and he just couldn't take it anymore and chopped his babies with a hatchet and then blew themselves up because he wrongly had his children taken from him because he is a man and did nothing wrong what-so-ever - I think I got that correct?
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nope
member
Reged: 12/31/11
Posts: 148
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And, did you not not read , hear or find, that she was having an affair with the creepy father in law, that is now (intresting the timing) the main person of intrest in Susan Powell's murder/dissaperance?
They TODAY have renamed the POI. I guess when the POI kills himself and his kids, they GO AFTER the very man that Susan Powell's family as suspected all along. The FATHER IN LAW! Yes, he did kill himself and the kids. Tradgic Tradgic Tradgic. Insane, yes! Josh Powell was the man every few nights is highlighted on Nancy Grace and shows of the like.I still say he went insane after Sat. and the knowledge that was revealed.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Please post the article that says what you are stating.
The articles I have posted and read did touch on the father having a thing for his sons wife but not that he killed Susan or was suspected in her disappearance - the father is charged and in jail because authorities found explicit images on his computers during the search, and he was jailed on voyeurism and child p orn charges.
The father was in Washington at the time of the disappearance which occurred in Utah where Josh and Susan lived.
Please post the news report from which you are reading and relaying as the latest news.
If Josh was so insane for so long then it really is not a big deal that his children were taken from him - maybe that is why the return of the children was delayed - you just figured that out for all of us who were trying to understand why the courts and CPS would not return them right away....now we know BUT he still PLANNED the murders of his children.
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nope
member
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Posts: 148
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Yes he PLANNED the murder of himself and his kids. Much like many INSANE people plan murders. Now, look at the hatchet, can we? The hatchet was found in the room. TRADGIC! Yet, the M E says they died FIRST because of the black smoke in the lungs. The M E wont come out and really say if there was such wounds. Nancy Grace, TMZ and Rador at their best. The guy was a crazy insane person. Evil? As many are saying, that is up to GOD to decide.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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can you post the news article you are relaying your information from
actually the reports say the autopsies will not be completed in totality until Monday and the preliminary is the hatchet wounds contributed to their deaths
please post the articles
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Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
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Her skanky father in law has said they have had an affair, and flirted with each other from jump, that is not breaking news. It was breaking news in 2009 after she disappeared. Her family has always denied the accusation, especially Susan's father.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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MrsB
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Since when does this troll have any credibility. You won't get the sources, because there aren't any. :)
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LexieBelle
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You're way off. The FIL is OLD OLD OLD news. He has always claimed a flirtation/affair and that she was in love with him and they were going to be together or whatever. He's never been a person of interest or a suspect and still isn't. Her husband is, and has been, THE ONLY person of interest.
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gr8Dad
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So wait a minute. An ADULT claims something occured, it is dismissed as the rantings of a crazy old man. But two YEARS ago a THREE year old recounts to a person that "Mommy is in the trunk" of a PICTURE he drew, and that is sufficient to continue to harrass a guy about his missing wife and take his kids (cause lets stop the BULLSH!T, the kids were taken because they were convinced he killed his wife, not because they found the kiddie p0rn on Daddies computer).
ETA: Something just occured to me, while reading the latest report. Previous reports had indicated that the whole, "Mommy is in the trunk" thing happened RECENTLY. But the CURRENT report is that it happened TWO YEARS ago.
Now, the theory has been that it happened RECENTLY, because the kids were JUST beginning to get over the trauma and deal with the situation and "verbalize" what was going on and what the supposedly saw. But if this happened two years ago, and it was a sign they were verbalizing, why have we heard NOTHING else?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
Edited by gr8Dad (02/08/12 08:30 AM)
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LexieBelle
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Does it matter??? 2-3 years ago, they were going to put a 2 year old on the stand? I mean, come on, use some common sense here.
What is your hard on for defending this guy? Seriously. Do you REALLY think your justification holds up?
Oh and for the record? Andrea Yates WAS INSANE. Her mental health history CLEARLY documented that. She didn't "snap" because of her husband, was never my position, MY Postion was that he should have never had more kids with her b/c he KNEW she was mentally ill.
And The Burning Bed woman? She killed her ABUSER. She didn't kill INNOCENT CHILDREN. HER children. She killed the man who ABUSED her. TOTALLY different. Apples versus apes.
If this guy was going to snap under media scrutiny why not a year ago? 2 years ago? Why NOW, when he's in the process of being REUNITED with his children? Oh wait, POOORRRRR WITTLE BABY MAN.. it wasn't going how HE wanted it to and he wasn't getting HIS PROPERTY BACK.
Watch the interviews with him. He killed that woman. NO question about it. And he calculatingly and premeditatively killed his own children too. He didn't even have the decency to KILL them with the hatchet. Sick fvck. They were ALIVE after he CHOPPED them and they died of INHALATION. He WANTED them to suffer. ANY justification of WHY he did is negated by HOW he did it.
It truly sickens me that you can sit here and try to justify it. And you ARE trying to justify it.
Show of hands folks? Who here thinks Gr8 is trying to excuse/justify this guy's behavior??
HAND RAISED
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ssmom79
Carpal \'Tunnel
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Hand raised.
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LexieBelle
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Actually, owe Nope an apology:
people.com/people/article/0,,20568259,00.html
They are CORRECT, the FIL now IS a person of interest in the mother's disappearance (likely death).
That said, it SEEMS that they just think he has INFORMATION. Now that the son is DEAD, that he'll now want to talk.
Place bets on them offering reduced/no charges on the kiddie p/orn stuff if he'll give up what the son DID do to the wife?
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Reilly
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I don't understand how he was never a suspect to begin with...the interview with him, was just creepy...it sounded to me like he had as much motive as anyone to kill her...
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Ever notice how 'What the hell' is always the right answer?~Marilyn Monroe
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gr8Dad
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"Does it matter??? 2-3 years ago, they were going to put a 2 year old on the stand? I mean, come on, use some common sense here."
Nope, can't do that. Can't use the WORDS of a two year old as justification that he killed here, then DISMISS the words when they don't hold up under scrutiny as being those of a two year old. Double edged sword.
"What is your hard on for defending this guy?"
Because it happens FAR to often in this country, especially in the last ten years. ZERO evidence, and RIGHTS are violated. And until people start standing up to the jack booted thugs in the government, it is only going to get worse.
"he should have never had more kids with her b/c he KNEW she was mentally ill."
LMAO, this is the EXACT same thing I am saying about him. When the evidence didn't point to him, they should have allowed him to live his life. Instead, they CONTINUALLY jacked with him, took his kids, etc. NOT excusing the murder-suicide, but I still think he was driven to it.
"If this guy was going to snap under media scrutiny why not a year ago? 2 years ago? Why NOW, when he's in the process of being REUNITED with his children?"
Was he going to be reunited? They told him follow the rules and you will get them back. He followed the rules, when the time came, they changed the rules. All the while, the kids are living with people who are CONVINCED he killed their daughter.
"Watch the interviews with him. He killed that woman."
NO evidence of that. Matter of FACT, no evidence she is even DEAD.
"They were ALIVE after he CHOPPED them and they died of INHALATION."
You know, for someone who CLAIMS to be a fan of true crime stories, you REALLY like to jump on thing for which there are NO evidence. The autopsy has not been completed or released.
"It truly sickens me that you can sit here and try to justify it. And you ARE trying to justify it.
Show of hands folks? Who here thinks Gr8 is trying to excuse/justify this guy's behavior??
HAND RAISED"
What are you THREE? "Hey, all you kids, agree with me and that will make it TRUE"
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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Ah, so when JOSH was a "person of interest", he DID it. His DAD is now a person of interest...Josh still did it, Dad just has INFO.
Sorry, but you are CONVINCED he did it, and you are spinning ALL info to that result.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Not going to argue it any more with you. You're completely and utterly alone in this one. Sooo, you can argue all you would like, not going to make it so and I think a lot of people are losing respect for you in the process.
Honestly? Even if you WERE right? This is one of those times/issues where it's better to keep one's opinions to oneself methinks.
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gr8Dad
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"Honestly? Even if you WERE right? This is one of those times/issues where it's better to keep one's opinions to oneself methinks."
Wow. You are SO whipped by society that you think a person on an ANONYMOUS message board should not say something, even if they ARE right, because it might "look" bad.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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I'm whipped by society? Really? I'd say I'm one of the more NON-societal conforming people on here. Probably THE LEAST societal conforming. Just sayin' in this case a woman is dead, (yes she is), her KIDS are dead, and you're generally just arguing to be a jerk, it seems like. Got nothing to do with "society" and being whipped.. it's just.. decency.
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gr8Dad
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"Just sayin' in this case a woman is dead, (yes she is)"
NO proof.
"you're generally just arguing to be a jerk, it seems like."
You know what is interesting, I have not called ANYONE any names. I have presented my side, how I see things, in a calm and cool manner. (okay, I lost my temper in ONE post, but STILL did not call anyone anything). I have been called names and insulted repeatedly, and you say I should stop, to be "decent". Why? Are Susan's relatives on this board? Is this her personal web blog? Of course not, its a TOPIC, and it is being discussed. But YOU disagree with me, so I should stop. Well, I have only RESPONDED to posts, so maybe THEY should stop...nope, got to be ME, right?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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sally1234
enthusiast
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Posts: 237
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She is right - you have lost all respect. The case is so deplorable and people like you defending it/him is disgusting. Let me tell you what your position means to me - I would not let you anywhere near my children. You can brush that off certainly...this is not an insult - it is a true reflection of how awful a light I see you.
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Cassie23
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Ah, so when JOSH was a "person of interest", he DID it. His DAD is now a person of interest...Josh still did it, Dad just has INFO.
Sorry, but you are CONVINCED he did it, and you are spinning ALL info to that result.
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I believe she was just conveying what the People Mag article is stating. That FIL is now a POI because he may have information regarding what happened to Susan since he lived with Josh.
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gr8Dad
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"She is right - you have lost all respect."
If you allow how OTHER people "respect" you, to change your beliefs and feelings, you have zero respect to begin with.
"The case is so deplorable and people like you defending it/him is disgusting."
Yes, him killing himself and his children is disgusting and deplorable. How he was treated BEFORE that, was ALSO disgusting and deplorable. It is the latter that I am defending, NOT the former.
"Let me tell you what your position means to me - I would not let you anywhere near my children. You can brush that off certainly...this is not an insult - it is a true reflection of how awful a light I see you."
That you would stop someone from being near your children based on their opinions on an anonymous message board says FAR more about you than about me.
"
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30201
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But that is not what the article SAID. She is a self professed "true crime" follower. She should KNOW that a POI is someone that think DID it, a person with INFO as a cooperating or material witness.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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ssmom79
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/27/07
Posts: 7784
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I don't think anyone is trying to change your feelings. I get you're whole, fathers aren't treated right mantra and I totally agree. They are often not treated right, woman often get a pass and it's sickening (LaFave huge pet peeve, the way she was treated disgusts me) But to choose a case where a father murdered his children to be your personal soapbox for the mistreatment of him during the investigation....well you'd be better suited choosing a different case to raise that stink.
Frankly, this is how you are and it is what it is. I have no desire to change you, but I definitely desire that you see yourself how other people see you, NOT to accept how they see you, but to step outside yourself and see how you're coming across.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I knew "nope" could not provide the reports that is why I kept asking him
Gr8: this mans children were taken for their safety as protocol with CPS. Anytime there is child p orn in the home regardless of who's it is the children are removed so the environment and everyone in it can be investigated. Man or woman - doesn't matter. The children should have been returned but they were not so there has to be something we are not privy to in order to keep them longer. He was working toward reunification evidenced by the twice weekly in-home visits but there was something preventing his having them immediately. He decided he couldn't wait or follow another rule and killed them in an inhumane manner by using a hatchet and then blowing them up. Courts often add more rules if they see fit and there HAS to be an issue and it HAS to be backed up - it cannot be willy nilly hunches. Having been associated with CPS that is how it works.
There was a made for tv movie based on a true story where a woman had here children taken from her over innocent pictures of her children in the bum and diapers. There was an investigation and an overzealous prosecutor involved. The place the film was turned (the place she always used) in to be developed called the authorities. If I remember correctly it was around the McMartin trials and there was a heightened sensitivity to anything involving pictures of children not fully dressed. Needless to say it happens to anyone and it is SCARY that it can happen that way but in Josh's case the pictures were of child p orn and other issues making the taking of the children a requirement.
Andrea Yates was insane. She had a long complicated verifiable mental health history, which is necessary to plead insanity. There are certain criteria to meet in order for the defense to be successful and I believe it is something like only 1% of cases are allowed to use the insanity defense - it is very low percentage if it is not 1% - I am drawing from a class I took a couple semesters ago and don't ave the book right here in front of me. Heat of passion is a justifiable defense to reduce charges of murder or 2nd degree murder to voluntary manslaughter.
Josh was clearly NOT insane - he carefully planned and executed the deaths of his children and he utilized cruelty by chopping them with the hatchet - does the hatchet suggest insanity - no it suggests EVIL.
He was not pushed into doing what he did by his own words he said he is not a lesser person and due to his resilience the investigation was proving difficult because he had nothing to hide. He was standing up to your perceived pressures. His children were taken, rightfully so, he wanted them back and was working towards that, a rule was added, he didn't like it and wanted it to happen NOW so he chose to love them to death...
It is no stretch to think that something was coming to light and he did not want it too and he did what he did to have control of his property and make sure no one else did - is there evidence to this - we will most likely never know.
Defend him if you must
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30201
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"Anytime there is child p orn in the home regardless of who's it is the children are removed so the environment and everyone in it can be investigated."
Interesting theory, but COMPLETELY false. We have a poster on HERE who's ex was caught with kiddie p0rn while they were together. Kids were not removed. And the kiddie p0rn was NOT found in the kids "home", it was found on his FATHER'S computer, at his FATHER'S house, where he was TEMPORARILY staying with the kids. There was ABSOLUTELY no reason to remove them, and further more, absolutley NO reason to KEEP them once he had followed the rules.
"Josh was clearly NOT insane - he carefully planned and executed the deaths of his children and he utilized cruelty by chopping them with the hatchet - does the hatchet suggest insanity - no it suggests EVIL."
Come on, the guy lives a PERFECTLY normal life up to that point, and SNAPS, but since what he did was SO off the wall, you are saying it DOESN'T mean insanity?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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sally1234
enthusiast
Reged: 12/07/06
Posts: 237
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Are you going to utter "I know you are but what am I?" next? Seriously, we all know there are real people typing messages on this message board...and these message boards reflect perspectives on the world and life as we each see it. Your messages have opened my eyes...how anyone can spend some 50 posts on remotely defending/rationailizing anything about this scum is hard to believe...but you've done it. You're entitled to you opinion and also the right to not change your views based on others opinion...as am I - and my opinion is your view is repulsive.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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"Interesting theory, but COMPLETELY false. We have a poster on HERE who's ex was caught with kiddie p0rn while they were together. Kids were not removed. And the kiddie p0rn was NOT found in the kids "home", it was found on his FATHER'S computer, at his FATHER'S house, where he was TEMPORARILY staying with the kids. There was ABSOLUTELY no reason to remove them, and further more, absolutley NO reason to KEEP them once he had followed the rules."
Not a Theory - and I will go by what I experienced working with CPS and the RULES that MUST be followed and not a poster from and open public forum and if it did happen somebody SCREWED up. If the only thing was what his father had the children would have been returned right away but there HAD to be something else - I do not know of any way to get this across to you unless you are just wanting to argue??
The children were LIVING there and the grandfather was charged and jailed and there are several counts of the voyerism along with the child p orn.
There was a reason to keep them or they would NOT have - CPS can face ramifications for keeping children that should rightfully be returned. We are not privy to the reason(s). You keep going off of there was not reason and I am telling you there HAD to be a reason there HAD to be there HAD to be - there are RULES to follow.
He did NOT snap he PLANNED it there is PLENTY of evidence he PLANNED it.
He said in his own words that he was resilient.
The 911 tapes are being released and people are starting to talk - HIS family is starting to talk.
Apparently many thought he would harm the children maybe THAT is the reason or part of it - there was an evaluation ordered - it was psychosexu@l but that would have shown many things.
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30201
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"There was a reason to keep them or they would NOT have"
So you think that the story about the woman who had her kids taken because of the "bum" shots SHOULD have lost them? I mean CPS "has" to have a reason and NEVER makes mistakes, right?
"CPS can face ramifications for keeping children that should rightfully be returned."
Show me a case where CPS or DYFS EVER faced ramifications for their errors.
"You keep going off of there was not reason and I am telling you there HAD to be a reason there HAD to be there HAD to be - there are RULES to follow."
And as it is a HUMAN organization, MISTAKES get made.
"He did NOT snap he PLANNED it there is PLENTY of evidence he PLANNED it."
Oh, so if a person PLANS something, they are not crazy and didn't snap? So define "planned". Yates filled the tub with the INTENT of drowning her kids, did she PLAN it? Many suicides involve a NOTE of some sort...are they SANE then, because they PLANNED it when they were writing the note?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/10
Posts: 3680
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If he obstructed justice he would fall into "person of interest".. how involved was he? Don't know. But the police surely believe he knows more than he's SAID.. thus far.
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LexieBelle
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/10
Posts: 3680
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Stop bringing up Andrea Yates for pete's sake, she is NOT a comparison point. She WAS CRAZY. Period. WELL DOCUMENTED kind of crazy. This guy is NOT CRAZY.
I can make some pretty good guesses the underlying concerns about those boys. And why he was undergoing a psychosexual eval. WATCH INTERVIEWS WITH HIM. He refers to himself as "this little boy too" in them. He ACTS like a little boy, he SOUNDS like one. Wanna place bets on whether he was sexually abused? I would. I'd also place bets on whether he had those urges HIMSELF.
There's MORE to this than meets the eye.. I'm telling you. I'd stake my own life on it. In a heartbeat, hands down, no doubt.
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Cassie23
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 10/07/05
Posts: 14714
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I agree. A person of interest is described as someone that the police can be suspicious of, that may have info regarding the investigation. There are times when a person of interest turns out not to be the suspect.
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30201
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Ah, got it, you THINK he might have been abused. You THINK he might have those tendencies himself.
So, lets recap:
He murdered his wife, despite the COMPLETE lack of evidence.
He DIDN'T snap, he is just "evil" (interesting coming from an agnostic), despite PLENTY of evidence he snapped and is crazy (Like chopping at kids with a hatchet and they blowing them and yourself up is the signs of a SANE person).
He might have been molested, despite no evidence.
He MIGHT be sexually attracted to children, despite no evidence.
Wow, just WOW. You are COMPLETELY making this stuff up.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/10
Posts: 3680
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No, I'm not "making it up".
I've watched interviews with him. Look, you may not like it or believe it BUT.. I'm pretty good at the evaluating/vibe thing. I bet I'm way closer to the mark than YOU would like to admit.
Yes, I think he is "evil", and I don't know what being an agnostic/atheist has to do with that. He's BAD. His thought processes are selfish, self-serving and just WRONG. YES, I think he is SANE. Yup. What he did was extremely calculated and well thought out and planned. Every detail. He hatcheted the kids so they couldn't escape. But he didn't want to KILL them that way.. just disable them. EXTREMELY well thought out. Insane, "I just lost it" people? Don't do that. No, he knew EXACTLY what he was doing and I'm betting he had, in HIS mind, totally rational/justified reasons for doing it.
I'll be very interested to see how it plays out.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I did not say they shouldn't have been taken (to figure it out) the case should have never been what it was it should have never transpired that way or gone anywhere. I said the pictures were playful pictures any parent has taken of their toddler children (they were her children not someone elses) you probably took similar photos - a camera shop employee turned them into the prosecutor so somewhere in there the camera person's "opinion" was used as a factor in taking the children and the prosecutor (after the heyday of the McMartin trials) used his unskilled in family issues, development, etc.. and did as he did.
There is a difference in child p orn and pictures of your young children in their diapers. On of the pictures that the prosecutor had such and issue with one of the little children got a hold of the camera and took the picture.
Josh's dad's pictures were clearly MORE then a toddler in diapers and with the added voyerism charges (several) it has to be ruled out that there is harm to the children.
Josh did move out and cut off contact and did not bail dad out so he was GETTING his children back but there was something holding that up and he did not like whatever it was and executed the murder suicide he had been planning since the hearing (or even before) the hearing took place on a Wednesday and the murder on Sunday.
Suicides are not generally insane people they are depressed individuals who see no way out and the majority of times it is planned they give stuff away, say their goodbyes, and seem happier after they make the decision.
Andrea Yates did not kill herself she killed her children and she woke up one morning and filled the bathtub and drowned the children. She called no one prior, she sent no emails, donated nothing, etc... Big difference between her and Josh. She was basically confined to her home and she killed them due to delusions she had that they needed to be safe/saved for God - total delusion and part of her mental health history not to mention she was suffering from post-partum depression - Josh had NONE of this.
My father committed suicide - he wasn't insane, he did not snap, he put his wallet in the dresser to make sure my mother got it, there were many suggestions after the fact that he planned it. He took my mother to work and went back home and took his life. He knew no one would find him right away. Just because one commits suicide doesn't mean they are insane - they are sane they have made the decision and carry it out - those who do not succeed it was many times a cry for help (which is sane) when one really wants to die they do not normally fail. If your looking for an insanity defense for Josh by saying he was insane because he killed himself you need to find another avenue. He wasn't insane when he killed his children either it was EVIL - he has NO history (that we know of) didn't have delusions etc...
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LexieBelle
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/10
Posts: 3680
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My grandfather committed suicide as well. VERY well thought out/planned. He was highly dysfunctional in general but he was "sane/rational" when he did it. He knew what he wanted, he knew he was done and it was all VERYVERY well thought out/calculated/planned, complete with very specific jabs at family members (he killed himself with the he left my uncle, his son.. made sure how he'd be found AND by WHOM, etc). These people know EXACTLY what they are doing.. and why. And at least in my experience/research, the HOW is very very calculated. There's reasons. I have no doubt there's a REASON why he hatcheted those boys first. But, he also wanted them to suffer.
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elliesmom
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 8835
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Gr8 - you are completely wrong about the posters whose husband had kiddie p0rn. I seem to recall her talking about how hard it was for her girls because their father was not allowed around ANY children - including them. They went from 50-50 to 100% her as soon as he was arrested.
Frankly I cannot believe you are trying to make this argument. He MURDERED his kids. Clearly - CPS was SPOT ON when they removed them from the home. Too bad he was so well behaved he was allowed to have twice weekly visits in his home. But he was an evil a-hole; not crazy. So he could hide it.
If he had murdered his inlaws - I could totally buy the argument that he was driven to his actions by the courts and the media hounding him.
But you can't argue a man is so broken up over the loss of his kids that he was driven to commit a crime he otherwise wouldn't have committed - when the crime is MURDERING said children. It makes zero sense. Not even crazy person logic follows that. Severe narcisism perhaps. But that is not crazy. Thats just a real a-hole kind of guy.
While I did kinda think he did something to his wife - it didn't seem like there was any evidence of that so I would reserve judgement. But now that I KNOW he is a murderer? I will go back and say - yup. SOB killed her. Which incidently - is how our justice system works. Typically prior bad acts are not admitted unless relevant, but ones you've done since then...totally fair game.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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If you want cases of ramifications just look at the news when CPS workers are fired and policies change - no they are not strung up and beaten but there are consequences and in this day and age CPS does err on the side of caution.
Look at the cases where children are starved and beaten and abused and there was a case worker involved - look a the public outrage when that occurs.
Had CPS not taken these children and information came to light about the father child p orn and voyerism and nothing was done and then the investigation revealed that Josh (or his father) abused them (not saying that was happening) the public would be having CPS's hide. The psychosexu@l evaluation was for a reason - one does have to wonder why....
Had Josh kept them and then killed them when whatever came to light - the public would faulted CPS and we all KNOW that is true.
Are we privy to any information in regards to the family courts and the children - NO - as it should be and CPS acted on the information they had. Erring on the side of caution is significantly better then not. CPS may still have some fall out because the children were put in a position to where they could be harmed and many people thought they would be but as em said the man was calculating and could hide his true self long enough to get to the point the entire sad situation got to.
He planned this any way you look at it. One thing that really stands out to me is he allowed the CPS worker to live there was thought there and of course she would not have let him chop his children with a hatchet to fill his cruelty need - but he could have just blown the house up once they all entered and he wouldn't let her in - Thank goodness but that is PLANNED and there was a sane thought process that allowed that - he wanted to inflict pain on the children and he couldn't with her there he would have had to blow them ALL up and he did not. He had to have the where with all to time the explosion as well - the fumes had to have time to build.
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Goodmom
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 06/17/07
Posts: 2015
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I see you are still defending the MURDER OF CHILDREN.
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elliesmom
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/05
Posts: 8835
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So it seems that the judge prior to the Feb 1 hearing had viewed materials from Josh Powell's Utah home including animated p0rn of parent-child sex. Can you say "Hell Yeah" he didn't get the kids back. And it was unlikely he would pass a psychosexual exam and he knew it. Yuck.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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LexieBelle
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/10
Posts: 3680
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[quote]So it seems that the judge prior to the Feb 1 hearing had viewed materials from Josh Powell's Utah home including animated p0rn of parent-child sex. Can you say "Hell Yeah" he didn't get the kids back. And it was unlikely he would pass a psychosexual exam and he knew it. Yuck. [/quote]
----------->> Thanks for sharing that EM.. I hadn't read that info anywhere.. but, damn I'm good!
(a few posts back I said: "He ACTS like a little boy, he SOUNDS like one. Wanna place bets on whether he was sexually abused? I would. I'd also place bets on whether he had those urges HIMSELF.")
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annieo
veteran
Reged: 07/07/10
Posts: 1410
Loc: Pacific Northwest
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I've seen a few new reports and this one disgusted me but it would explain why he did not get his children back and CPS was justified in removing them and goes to show just how selfish he is that he murdered them and did what he did with the hatchet. Hate to say it but the hatchet may have been to satisfy his need and not the cruelty need.... however there is no "evidence" of him actually perpetrating the acts but having the animated p orn that he had - can you say DISTURBED!!!
Some may say his father put it there but it was on HIS computer in his home in Utah. I wonder if he and his father were in cahoots?? Maybe the wife found out and then she disappeared....
Truly disgusting and good riddance just so sad he took the children with him who were innocent victims in all of this.
May the little ones rest in peace.
Josh can burn in he!! and that is too good for him.
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Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
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That info was just released. YES GR8DAD...simulated child parent sex images on his computer. I am sure this is A-OK? Still no reason for him to lose custody? THe problem is, is that there is plenty of info that the public has not been privy to. So, I guess all of this will be explained away too?
It was also just releases that Josh told his sons, "I have a big surprise for you Saturday." I wish he was still alive so that he could be killed and tortured all over again...
The case worker also reported that she heard the youngest boy crying after Josh pushed her out and locked the door.
Oh how I hope he is burning in hell. In fact, I think hell is too nice of a place for him.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
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Josh Powell's computer had images of animated incestuous sex on it, authorities have revealed.
The images were realistic computer-generated depictions of parent-child sex, Detective Ed Troyer of the Pierce County Sheriff's Department told the Associated Press.
The computer was taken by police following the 2009 disappearance of Powell's wife, Susan Cox, but the images were brought up for the first time publicly in a court custody hearing last week.
The court ruled that because of images that were "specifically related to the children's welfare" on his computer, Powell would have to undergo an extensive psychosexual evaluation, polygraph test, and counseling before he could regain custody of the boys. The court would not disclose what the images depicted.
Following the custody hearing, Powell told ABC News that he had no idea what kind of images the West Valley City, Utah, police had found on his computer that would factor into a custody hearing. He said he could not remember having any inappropriate images on his computer, and said it was possible someone had emailed the images to him.
But four days later, Powell killed his children -- Charles, 7, and Braden, 5 -- attacking them with a hatchet and then blowing up his house with himself and his sons inside.
KOMO/ABC News
Josh Powell attends a custody hearing in a... View Full Size
KOMO/ABC News
Josh Powell attends a custody hearing in a Pierce County courtroom. Powell Social Worker Comes Forward Watch Video
Josh Powell Explosion: Questions About 911 Operator Watch Video
Police Investigate Chicago Jewel Heist Watch Video
Steve Downing, the attorney representing Cox's parents, Chuck and Judy Cox, said if he had known the nature of the images that were found on Powell's computer, he would have asked the court to change the terms of custody.
Powell originally lost custody when his father, Steve Powell, with whom Powell and his sons lived, was arrested on child pornography and voyeurism charges in September.
He had moved in with his father after his wife Susan Cox disappeared. Powell was the lone "person of interest" in her disappearance.
The long drama surrounding Powell came to an explosive end Sunday during a supervised visit at his home. Powell welcomed the children inside and locked out the social worker.
He could be heard telling son Charlie he had "a big surprise" for him. The social worker then heard Braden cry out. And minutes later the house exploded.
Powell sent emails and left voicemails for relatives and friends minutes before the explosion saying he could not live without his boys any longer and had to protect them.
New information emerged today on how the supervised visits had been switched from public places to Powell's home.
"We had been having supervised visits, and there were no concerns raised during those visits," Sharon Gilbert, an official at the Department of Social and Health Services, told ABC News' "20/20."
Because of Powell's notoriety in the case about his missing wife, officials decided to move the visits to his home.
"Josh Powell was recognizable, as were the children. And that could also be disruptive to visits that are occurring with other families," Gilbert said of the decision.
Both Gilbert and social worker Elizabeth Griffin-Hall said they did not see any warning signs that Powell would eventually lure the children into his home to kill them.
"How this happened is that Josh Powell was really, really evil, Griffin-Hall said. "I couldn't have stopped him."
Joseph Rhee contributed to this report.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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Miranda
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
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I think both Dateline and 20/20 are airing stories on this case. So incredibly sad...
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30201
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Haven't seen this reported, but yes, THAT would re-evaluate my opinion. Funny thing is, you were acting like this existed PRIOR to it being found. And PRIOR to it being found and reported, there was NOTHING to indicate he had done anything wrong.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 06/07/04
Posts: 30201
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See, there was NO evidence that he ACTED on anything, just that a "parent-child" type animated file was on his computer.
Now, lets LOOK at a few things. Number one, it is NOT illegal to HAVE such a thing, or he would have been arrested. Second, anyone ever downloaded a file, thinking it was one thing, like a regular p0rn, and it turned out to be something else? Third, it was on the computer THREE YEARS AGO, the police knew about it THREE YEARS AGO. Yet NOW it is brought up to use against him in a custody battle? Yeah, okay.
I stand by my original thought. If the incest video found on his computer THREE YEARS AGO was not an indication that he was a danger to the children, it did not "magically" become an indication now.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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