gr8Dad
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Look at how they are GRASPING at straws to make him look guilty. NOW they are saying his house in Washington, which he moved into after he was told he could NOT live at his father's place (despite the fact that his father was in jail), looked like a "sham" residence. Why? What EVIDENCE do they have that he was only using this residence to fool CPS workers? Was there ANOTHER residence somewhere else? Nope. Was there a CAVE or something with his STUFF in it? No, except for the storage building he kept stuff in, like MOST of America.
So WHAT was so damning about this house that is being used to determine that it was a sham? Well, there were PICTURES on the wall of him and the kids, and the place was decorated to show a loving family man...that dispicable BASTARD!
Now, in order to reduce the number of responses in this thread, I am stating the following:
I am NOT defending his actions that killed himself and his children, and will NOT respond to any posts that say that I AM, because they are obviously posted by MORONS who cannot read the REPEATED times that I have said that.
The reason this case is so VERY important is that the CAUSE and EFFECT have been reversed. The criminal justice system, the family court, and the media drove a man to commit a DISPICABLE act, then POINTED to that act and said, "See, we told you he was a murderer."
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Cassie23
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I read the article, sounds like they believe that this a "sham" residence because it was an abandoned home and not technically being "rented" by him? I don't know- too little information. They did make it seem like he has another residence, which there is no proof of, thus far.
Did you also read that there was incestuous pictures found on his computer? I am assuming they mean the computer that was in the home his father and him shared? That was, in part, why the judge was asking for psych-sexual eval?
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gr8Dad
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I have seen NOTHING of another residence.
"Did you also read that there was incestuous pictures found on his computer?"
They found one animated video that depicted an incestuous act. They found it TWO YEARS AGO. If it was not a factor THEN, it isn't a factor now. Some people are into that. There is a whole series of p0rnos about that subject (The "Taboo" series). Its not illegal (possesing the stuff, not performing it, LOL).
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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No, they are only NOW just FINDING things! Like, the blood-stained comforter in the storage unit. Like, the incestuous scenarios on HIS computer in what was HIS home.
Which, the last one? Makes TOTAL sense even if you apply it one or two different ways.
I, for one, am completely convinced that EITHER Josh was molested by his father OR witnessed his father molesting other children. I also am completely convinced that Josh had either expressed said thoughts or had exhibited a behavior such as to alarm his wife. THAT? Is why she's dead.
It also explains his in-laws' references to how he viewed his boys as "possessions" (very typical of an incestuous parent) and also explains why he got rid of them (and himself). Also explains why he made SURE they would not survive. (not sure why the hatcheting overkill since he poured accelerant ON their bodies).
I think Joshie boy was a very SICK boy.
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LexieBelle
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As far as I'm aware it was an incestuous act between an adult and a CHILD. And no one said it wasn't an issue 2 years ago.. the general public just isn't necessarily fully informed of EVERYTHING in an ongoing investigation.. gee, imagine that!
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gr8Dad
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"No, they are only NOW just FINDING things! Like, the blood-stained comforter in the storage unit. Like, the incestuous scenarios on HIS computer in what was HIS home."
Nope. They DID just find the blood stained comforter. So? You have ANYTHING in your house with ANY blood on it? Should your KIDS be taken because of it?
The incest video was found IN HIS HOME COMPUTER, TWO YEARS AGO.
"I also am completely convinced that Josh had either expressed said thoughts or had exhibited a behavior such as to alarm his wife. THAT? Is why she's dead."
You DON'T know she is dead, so I guess making up a "motive" for soemthing you don't know makes perfect sense.
"It also explains his in-laws' references to how he viewed his boys as "possessions"
And you know he viewed them this way HOW?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"As far as I'm aware it was an incestuous act between an adult and a CHILD."
Well, THAT would be kiddie p0rn, and he wasn't arrested or charged with it, so that is crap.
"And no one said it wasn't an issue 2 years ago.. the general public just isn't necessarily fully informed of EVERYTHING in an ongoing investigation.. gee, imagine that!"
In your blind rage to prove yourself right, you are simply ignoring COMMON SENSE things. If it was an issue big enough to take or keep his kids from him, it would have happened 2 years ago. The addition of things to the custody battle happened 4 months ago. Since the infamous video was KNOWN about 2 YEARS ago, why wouldn't any CONCERNS about it have been addressed four months ago, at the INITIAL hearing? It is not NEW evidence, so it NEVER should have been used to add NEW things to the custody requirements.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Okay... not going to have the same argument with you. Waste of time. You have your opinion, I have mine. When/if the truth does come out? I guess we will see whose version is closer to being right. It's a "gut feel" on my part and my gut is RARELY wrong.
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gr8Dad
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"Okay... not going to have the same argument with you."
This isn't the same arguement. You are arguing UNKNOWNS and facts not in evidence as though they ARE facts and known. Your timeline is out of whack as well.
"It's a "gut feel" on my part and my gut is RARELY wrong."
Lets just hope someone does not try to take YOUR child based on a GUT feeling, with NO evidence, right?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Gecko
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I too have difficulty with the whole 'abandoned home' deal because it takes more than some pictures on the wall to make a house a home. You need furniture and household goods...CPS would have checked to make sure the kids had beds and clothing and toys. They also would have checked the kitchen...which means dishes, pots and pans and food. And what about utilities? And the yard?
And finding books and a UNMARKED map of Utah...in a landfill! Are you freaking kidding me?!? Our local landfill is HUGE...and throughout the day there are these huge machines that spread stuff out and then everything gets covered with a layer of 'dirt' after closing time.
Yes...it's a cover up. Time and time and time again, we have seen the family courts/cps/etc push people past the breaking point and when something bad happens, the rush in to cover their asses.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!
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gr8Dad
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Adding, ANYTHING this guy does is considered evidence of guilt. Lets look at the time line:
Wife disappears. Media crawls all over him. They say he should have gotten ther kids out of there. He moves to Washington to get the kids out of there. They say he ran to his Dad's. In the search of his Dad's, they find Dad's kiddie p0rn. Dad is arrested. Josh refuses to make bail for him and cuts all contact. He is told he needs to move out of Dads house, because he cannot see the kids there. So he rents ANOTHER house and puts up some pictures, amking it a loving home to see the kids in. Because he lives in UTAH, most of his stuff is there or in storage. They say it is a sham house, because most of his STUFF isn't there.
Now CONSIDER this. He was told he HAD to get another residence to see the kids in, and is now being criticized because he got another house to see the kids in.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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We have differing opinions.. it's fine. As I said,I'll be interested to see what the end result is, if there ever is one.
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ssmom79
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Eh. I'd say the investigation is definitely tainted with the murder/suicide. I still believe he wasn't 'driven' to do it by the investigation surrounding his wife's disappearance. As far as his wife's disappearance or murder, I'm going to hold judgement in that area.
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annieo
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Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Any thoughts I may have that he was driven to PLAN the murder-suicide ended when he used a HATCHET on his innocent little boys and poured ACCELERANT on them, apparently blowing them up wasn't enough to satisfy him he had to use CRUELTY.
AND I do not buy he was driven by the media - look at this OWN words where he says he is not a lesser person and he is resilient, which according to him was why the investigation into his wife's disappearance was difficult for law enforcement.
The "sham" house is (to me) a grasp - Josh did do what I believe a parent wanting his children back would do in order to get them back - he made a home for them - whether is had every little thing a home needed - that would be different for every person. Many people do not have tv's yet it is the "norm" to have at least one tv.
I do not have pictures on my children on the walls because I lot them in a fire - I do have current ones of my 10 year old but only the last two years and those are in frames sitting on a poorly built shelving unit. We lost EVERYTHING and my insurance at the time was actual cash value NOT replacement value so I could not replace everything, there was only 50,000 to cover everything in the home and garage and my husbands tools were half of that 50,000 to replace and we HAD to replace those - so I do not have all the nicer things I spent years collecting and it su@ked a lot because we had finally bought new furniture and *POOF* all gone. My fil took care of the insurance for interior belongings and lets just say he failed us but at least we got something. We rebuilt the home on a much smaller scale and tried to get things as needed to fill it up but that takes a LONG time. Anyway he may just not have had time, resources, or know how to make a home "homey" My husband wouldn't know how I don't think he would really even care if there were pictures on the walls or more then a few dishes in the cupboard....
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gr8Dad
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"Any thoughts I may have that he was driven to PLAN the murder-suicide ended when he used a HATCHET on his innocent little boys and poured ACCELERANT on them, apparently blowing them up wasn't enough to satisfy him he had to use CRUELTY."
Actually, they said the hatchet blows most likely rendered them unconcious, thus they didn't feel the fire. But that is moot. So what if he spent a day or three planning it? Why does that mean he didn't "snap"?
"look at this OWN words where he says he is not a lesser person and he is resilient"
Even the strongest person has a breaking point. He has been hounded for 3 years about the missing wife, of which there is NO evidence he did anything, then he found out his Dad was a pervert, then they took his kids, and repeatedly dangled the carrot on front of him and pulled it away.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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I will say, I can see where parents can snap and kill their kids due to the KIDS THEMSELVES. THAT I could see. But I can never EVER see someone from OUTSIDE forces then taking the impact of those forces and punishing their kids for those forces. Sorry, just can't mentally get there.
And it still goes back to a root flaw in this dude's personality. So fine, the media pushes you, the law pushes you, you go after THEM or some representation of them but to go after the thing you are supposedly fighting FOR? Nope, doesn't make sense and again, it goes to an INHERENTLY FLAWED PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE. There's just no way around that Gr8Dad. Whatever you say, however you try to justify it or explain it, the fact remains that for someone (male OR female) to go after/kill the thing they supposedly are fighting FOR is a clear sign of an inherently messed up thought process. And no, it's not a "snap". It's an INHERENT problem. And I'd be willing to bet there's not a psychologist/psychiatrist that would disagree with me. What this guy did is CLASSIC from a psychological standpoint. It's a certain profile and it is what it is. He didn't "snap". No way. I don't buy that for the fractioniest fraction of a second. EVERYTHING has been deliberately planned, calculated and PLAYED. No snapping involved whatsoever.
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gr8Dad
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So he is completely crazy with a flaw psyche, but he deliberately did it and planned it, meaning he is NOT crazy with a flawed psyche. Pick a side sweetie, you can't have it both ways.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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annieo
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Loc: Pacific Northwest
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Having a flawed psyche does NOT mean you are crazy if that were true do you know how many crazies would be running around - oh half the population or so.
Mental illness does not equate crazy. Are some with mental illness or a flawed psyche crazy - sure but not everyone who is mentally ill is crazy - look at bipolar there are highs and lows but if you have bipolar it doesn't mean you are crazy; same with depression, PTSD etc...
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gr8Dad
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Well, with NO history of crazy actions, one act indicates that there was an external force causing it. Like spending three years under a microscope without ANY evidence. Like having your kids taken with no evidence.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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You do not have the facts straight.
The kiddie p0rn was recently discovered on Josh Powells computer taken from his home (that he shared with his wife in Utah). It was an animation depicting incestuous sex between an adult and a child. That is the full info on that. A few days before the most recent CPS hearing the court in Utah agreed to allow Washington to view the evidence. It was after viewing that material the judge (who was most likely going to return the kids prior to this evidence) decided to order a psychosexual evaluation.
He flat out would have failed that eval unless somehow the items weren't his. The evaluation includes a medical evaluation measuring your arousal to certain stimuli - like kids, incest, etc. And he knew it. I am sure he was scared shytless his little private predilection was about to be very public. So he killed his kids and himself. This wasn't about his desperation for his kids.
I don't think the system failed here. It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Some people are just so determined to do evil, we can't stop them without infringing upon the rights of the rest of us.
The only thing possibly we can learn from this? Perhaps plainclothes police officers instead of social workers should supervise visits. Because - what the heck is a social worker going to if someone decides to do something? May not have made a difference in this case, but this isn't the first time things have occurred (usually kidnapping) during a supervised visit.
It is also unfair to say Utah has no evidence against him. All they have said is that they don't have enough. Given that it took a court order to release the kiddie p0rn they found 2 years ago - I'd say they are playing it pretty close to the vest. They probably think that her body will turn up eventually and the last thing anyone wants is her body to turn up with conclusive evidence and he was already acquitted.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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LexieBelle
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Well said EM!!! I think u have it perfectly explained.
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Cassie23
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A BIG FAT DITTO!!!
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LexieBelle
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.. how friggen AWESOME is it that the investigators bought the burial plots next to the boys so that their "father" couldn't be buried next to them?? BIG THUMBS UP, WAYYYY UP!
And how stupid was his family to TRY and bury him next to the sons he killed????? Duhhhhh. Like anyone was gonna let that happen? He doesn't even deserve to be in the same cemetary, let alone NEXT to them.
I think it's unfortunate he's dead. Feeding him to a pack of rabid coyotes seems much more appropriate frankly.
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Cassie23
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I read that. It was local sheriff's office and Crime Stoppers who bought the plots. I couldn't agree more, I think they were trying to "block", almost like a restraining order, from him being buried within so many feet of the boys.
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elliesmom
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Having him in the same cemetery might be convenient. So you could stop to p!ss on his on your way to pay respects to them.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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"The kiddie p0rn was recently discovered on Josh Powells computer taken from his home (that he shared with his wife in Utah). It was an animation depicting incestuous sex between an adult and a child. That is the full info on that. A few days before the most recent CPS hearing the court in Utah agreed to allow Washington to view the evidence. It was after viewing that material the judge (who was most likely going to return the kids prior to this evidence) decided to order a psychosexual evaluation."
I would be more than willing to view what YOU Think states that it was just found. EVERYTHING I have seen said it was found 2 years ago when they seized his computer after his wife's disappearence.
"I am sure he was scared shytless his little private predilection was about to be very public."
As long as he never ACTED on it, he was WELL within the law. Assuming he DID have the desires is a stretch, but the DESIRES are not illegal, and honestly, if you DO have those desires, and fight them successfully, as he appeared to do since there is NO evidence he acted on them, and fight them, I can respect that.
"It is also unfair to say Utah has no evidence against him. All they have said is that they don't have enough."
No, as in this country, we are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty, it is COMPLETELY fair to say that in the ABSENCE of evidence, there is no evidence. When they decide to RELEASE some evidence, I would reconsider my stance after seeing it, but I am NOT going to change my stance because they MIGHT have some evidence.
"Given that it took a court order to release the kiddie p0rn they found 2 years ago - I'd say they are playing it pretty close to the vest."
Well, FIRST, it wasn't kiddie p0rn, it was animated, we know this as he was not ARRESTED for kiddie p0rn. Second, having an incest related video is NOT an indication that he was a bad parent or a murderer.
"They probably think that her body will turn up eventually and the last thing anyone wants is her body to turn up with conclusive evidence and he was already acquitted."
And UNTIL that occurs, he is INNOCENT, and deserves to be TREATED as though is is innocent of those crimes. That was FAR from occuring. He was being penalized using a system with NO evidence, and a refusal to take it to trial so he COULD prove himself innocent.
They took his children with NO evidence that he was a bad parent.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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gr8Dad
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"And how stupid was his family to TRY and bury him next to the sons he killed????? Duhhhhh. Like anyone was gonna let that happen? He doesn't even deserve to be in the same cemetary, let alone NEXT to them."
Well, he DIDN'T molest them when he was alive, are you afraid his ZOMBIE will do it?
Even someone sentenced to DIE for a crime is even with the house once the execution is completed.
"I think it's unfortunate he's dead. Feeding him to a pack of rabid coyotes seems much more appropriate frankly."
Honestly, I hope you NEVER sit on a jury, as you are FAR to prone to judge based on emotion than ACTUAL FACTS.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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They took his children because he was living with a man who was arrested for child p0rn.
They kept his children while they investigated what if anything he knew about the child p0rn being edited/filmed in his home.
The courts determined there was no proof he knew and were preparing to return his children to him, when Utah dropped their bomb. While having animated child p0rn may not be criminal it is CERTAINLY grounds to question his safety as a parent particularly when the p0rn involves incest.
The state did what they were supposed to do. Tragically two children died anyway.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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"They took his children because he was living with a man who was arrested for child p0rn."
And there was NO evidence that he knew ANYTHING about it. But he moved OUT of the home to a rented place.
"They kept his children while they investigated what if anything he knew about the child p0rn being edited/filmed in his home."
And after four months of him following the rules and there being NO evidence that he knew anything about it, they decided to keep his kids from him even longer, with no concrete end in sight.
"The courts determined there was no proof he knew and were preparing to return his children to him, when Utah dropped their bomb. While having animated child p0rn may not be criminal it is CERTAINLY grounds to question his safety as a parent particularly when the p0rn involves incest."
Dropped a "bomb" that they were aware of for two YEARS. If this wasn't an issue TWO YEARS ago, it shouldn't have been an issue now. He VOLUNTEERED to take a polygraph test at the begiining of this mess with his kids, he was REFUSED. So he WAITS four months, returns to court to get his kids back, and all of a sudden, more testing AND a polygraph is needed before he gets them back. Sorry, that is a load of CRAP. It is stringing the system along and keeping him in a "punishment" phase, without the DUE PROCESS of a TRIAL, which would allow him to DEFEND himself from the accusations.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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And you're judging based on the fact he's a man, plain and simple.
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gr8Dad
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"And you're judging based on the fact he's a man, plain and simple."
No, I am judging based on the EVIDENCE. But negating my opinions by throwing out the "bias" card is really something I NEVER would have expected from you.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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I really think you are biased on this because he's a man. You're arguing that just because you don't necessarily SEE everything in the media that it doesn't EXIST. And EM demonstrated an example perfectly.
As for the burying issue. I get the joke but.. it's strictly a matter of DECENCY. I'm pretty sure it's NOT the norm to bury murder victims next to their murderer. Just not done. Whether he was their father, family.. whatever, that was NEGATED by the FACT that he MURDERED them. Forget ANYTHING else, he MURDERED them. He lost his "right" to be buried with them once he did that.
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gr8Dad
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"You're arguing that just because you don't necessarily SEE everything in the media that it doesn't EXIST. And EM demonstrated an example perfectly."
No, I am arguing that the evidence this is being released is NOT enough to find him guilty. You are arguing that there MUST be more evidence, even though you haven't seen it. You CANNOT convict someone on evidence that has NOT been presented, and NO evidence has been presented that shows him to be guilty.
What YOU are riding on is the idea that the GOVERNMENT wouldn't arrest him or charge him or take his kids without EVIDENCE, so there MUST be such evidence. That is a DANGEROUS slope to start down.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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There is some such evidence, we just have a difference of opinion as to whether or not it indicates guilt or not.
Reality? They do not NEED a body to charge him. They do not NEED [censored] physical evidence either to charge him NOR to convict him.
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gr8Dad
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"There is some such evidence, we just have a difference of opinion as to whether or not it indicates guilt or not."
That he took his kids camping? That is the ONLY thing they have. There is NOTHING else except the HEARSAY evidence of the grandparents as to something the kids said about Mommy being in the trunk, and that was said over a year ago.
Sorry, there is ABSOLUTELY no evidence that he had ANYTHING to do with her disappearence.
"Reality? They do not NEED a body to charge him. They do not NEED [censored] physical evidence either to charge him NOR to convict him."
Exactly. There isn't even enough CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence to arrest him. But that is what they do. They refuse to allow someone to defend themselves by NOT charging them, and allowing them to defend themselves.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Who says there isn't enough circumstantial evidence? You don't know what all they do or don't have, do you?
As for the camping thing, why don't you get the significance of that? YOU DO NOT TAKE TWO TODDLERS CAMPING IN SUB-ZERO TEMPS AFTER MIDNIGHT!!!! AND NO CONSCIENTIOUS MOTHER WOULD ALLOW THAT!!!
Soooo, the logical conclusion is that she was either incapacitated OR already dead at that time.
The child's statement was made during a session with a counselor.
You refuse to believe he's LIKELY a killer of his wife. That's your issue.
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gr8Dad
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"As for the camping thing, why don't you get the significance of that? YOU DO NOT TAKE TWO TODDLERS CAMPING IN SUB-ZERO TEMPS AFTER MIDNIGHT!!!! AND NO CONSCIENTIOUS MOTHER WOULD ALLOW THAT!!!"
So maybe SHE was a bad parent, the kind of parent that would run off with someone?
"Soooo, the logical conclusion is that she was either incapacitated OR already dead at that time."
OR, she was looking for a reason for him to be gone so she could run off? Or maybe have her lover come over, who then KILLED her? There are LOTS of reasonable conclusions.
Now, if there were BLOOD evidence, signs of a struggle, DNA in the van, etc etc, the fact that he took them camping MIGHT be a factor. But that ALONE indicates NOTHING.
"The child's statement was made during a session with a counselor."
That "statement" has been twisted SO many times, I don;t think ANYONE knows when or where it was said. First it was that the child drew a picture of Mommy in the trunk. Then it was that it was a picture of the car, without Mommy in it, and when ASKED where Mommy was, it was stated that she was in the trunk.
But what is UNDISPUTED is that the GRANDPARENTS were the ones to relate this news to the police. What that DOES indicate was that the PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED counselor did not think the statement was valid enough to report AS A MANDATORY REPORTER, to the police.
"You refuse to believe he's LIKELY a killer of his wife. That's your issue."
Three years ago, using PERCENTAGES< I would say that an intimate partner is almost ALWAYS the likely suspect. Three years later, with the police having searched every nook and cranny of HIS house, his FATHERS house and the location where they camped, and finding ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, no, I do not think he killed her.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Three years? That's nothing in the true crime world sometimes. Anne Marie Fahey.. took YEARS to identify her lover as the person and ONLY after his brother couldn't take the guilt anymore for having helped dump her body in a trunk off a boat.
Charles Stuart.. same thing.. it was his brother that finally caved too and dropped a dime on him. And him,he was IN the car, shot her IN the car and still, they couldn't absolutely pin it on him til the brother showed up with the jewelry Chuck had given him to get rid of.
I mean, really..
Let's talk women.. the woman in New Jersey, with the anti-freeze.. she killed TWO people before they finally caught wise and ONLY after they exhumed bodies for pete's sake and even then, there wasn't really a "smoking gun" of her actually FEEDING the guys anti-freeze.
Dianne Downs, another one, shot her kids, IN the car, with her IN the car, undisputed.. and it wasn't until a surviving child FINALLY was able to communicate what occurred.
Your argument for oh well it's been 3 years it wasn't him is kinda silly given the vast quantities of cases that prove your logic faulty.
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gr8Dad
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"Your argument for oh well it's been 3 years it wasn't him is kinda silly given the vast quantities of cases that prove your logic faulty."
Well, FIRST, I wouldn't call FOUR cases a "vast quantity". And I DO find it funny that MY thought of NO evidence in three years as an indication of non involvement to be "silly", but YOUR insistence, despite NO evidence in three years, that BECAUSE there could be some evidence found later, he MUST be guilty to be rational.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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We have a differing opinion of "no evidence". I think there's quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that we know of, and who knows what we don't know?
4 cases, that's off the top of my head, answering in about 2 minutes. I can certainly come up with many many many more. I've got a dozen Ann Rule books at home that are loaded with "not immediately solved even though the prime suspect was prime suspect since day one" cases.
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gr8Dad
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Besides that he went camping with the kids in the cold, do you consider "circumstantial evidence"?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Reged: 11/07/10
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AFTER midnight, with 2 kids under the age of 5 (4?). His unwillingness to cooperate with investigators, post-fact. His unwillingness to allow the children to even MENTION their mother. His odd behavior/characterizations of himself in interviews post-fact. The fact she left with NOTHING. Not her cell, not a WALLET. NO CASH, NO NOTHING. And most importantly, if she were leaving to be with another man (for which there is ZERO supporting even gossip to that effect other than what JOSH says), she left WITHOUT HER KIDS who were the do-all end-all of her life by all accounts.
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gr8Dad
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"His unwillingness to cooperate with investigators, post-fact."
Interesting, it is the COPS, who cannot find ANY evidence, that are saying he is unwilling to be cooperative. Short of saying, "I did it." what more do they want?
"His unwillingness to allow the children to even MENTION their mother."
This is something his inlaws CLAIMED, NEVER proven. Sure, THEY aren't biased, are they?
"His odd behavior/characterizations of himself in interviews post-fact."
Odd based on WHAT? YOUR belief in what is "normal"?
"The fact she left with NOTHING. Not her cell, not a WALLET. NO CASH, NO NOTHING. And most importantly, if she were leaving to be with another man (for which there is ZERO supporting even gossip to that effect other than what JOSH says), she left WITHOUT HER KIDS who were the do-all end-all of her life by all accounts."
So lets see, HER failure to take the kids means HE did it, HIS unwillingness to do WITHOUT his kids means he did it. Seems like you are bound and determined that EVERY fact points to him doing it, both in the "circumstantial" evidence, which is NOTHING more than what a NORMAL person does, and the LACK of physical evidence.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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elliesmom
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I am arguing strictly known facts.
Living with a child p0rn maker is grounds to take your kids.
Finding out that yo also enjoy watching animation of child-rape by a relative - is grounds to keep them from you until it can be determined whether you are truly aroused by that.
How/why/when things come to light is not really significant, but I will say that Utah had different priorities. They wanted this guy for murder and until he was charged - did not have to share jack squat of what they found. They were protecting their murder case, though in the end gave it up to keep the kids from being returned. None of that has any bearing on the CPS case. They acted appropriately based on information they HAD.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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"Living with a child p0rn maker is grounds to take your kids."
Living with a KNOWN child p0rn maker is grounds. Ceasing all contact and finding another place to stay after the fact that your Dad was into kiddie p0rn is not. There is NO evidence that he was aware that his Dad was into that, and he did EVERYTHING he could to cease all contact after it became known.
Are you saying that if the police showed up at your door and someone in your home was show to have kiddie p0rn, as they were hauling them out of the house in hand cuffs, you would have NO problem with them taking your children as well?
"Finding out that yo also enjoy watching animation of child-rape by a relative - is grounds to keep them from you until it can be determined whether you are truly aroused by that."
Actually, no, it is not. A pedophile that has not ACTED on his or her desires, and is not in possession of illegal material has JUST as much a right to keep their kids as anyone else.
But lets say that it IS a reason. How about a HEARING on it? How about giving a person a right to DEFEND themselves, you know, DUE PROCESS, before we automatically begin the penalty phase (continued denial of custodial rights and court ordered counseling and testing)?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Well, I'd stake my life you are wrong and I'm right. That's how confident I am. Granted, that's cocky but my gut SCREAMS in this case and it's very very rare my gut is wrong.
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elliesmom
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If I was living with a child p0rn producer? Yep. Take them. Or allow me to make safe arrangements with a family member as was done here.
"Actually, no, it is not. A pedophile that has not ACTED on his or her desires, and is not in possession of illegal material has JUST as much a right to keep their kids as anyone else." --> we will just have to agree to disagree here.
While I agree that separation from ones children is punishment - you and I both know that under the law it is not. This was legally a temporary situation. And he had a hearing. The results being that after an investigation there was no proof he or his father had molested the kids, that there was no evidence he knew of what his father was doing (but also none that he DIDN'T know), but new information came to light that he enjoyed animated kiddie p0rn. So an eval was ordered. Because as anyone with a brain knows - it can take years for kids to have the courage to tell. Sounds like everything working the way it should to make sure he was a safe person.
Now - was there a distinct pleasure in taking his kids away because he was suspected of murder, by oh, everyone? Yeppers. But that doesn't make it illegal. Just damn convenient.
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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.
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gr8Dad
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"Yep. Take them. Or allow me to make safe arrangements with a family member as was done here."
They "allowed" him to make arrangements? Nope, they TOOK the kids and gave them to the maternal grandparents. I am SURE that since he was FIGHTING them for custody, and they were CONVINCED he killed their daughter, they would NOT have been his FIRST choice for custody.
Oh, and would you have been willing to agree to four months PLUS of SUPERVISED visits, even though it was NOT you who was guilty of the kiddie p0rn?
"--> we will just have to agree to disagree here."
Nope, you are WRONG, and I am RIGHT. You CANNOT be arrested for your "desires", only ACTING on those desires, should they be illegal.
"Sounds like everything working the way it should to make sure he was a safe person."
So there was NO evidence that he did something wrong, yet he had to prove he was a safe person. When did you have to prove YOU were a safe person before you took your kids home?
"Now - was there a distinct pleasure in taking his kids away because he was suspected of murder, by oh, everyone?"
And WHY was he suspected? Oh yeah, because there was ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence that he did it, after THREE YEARS.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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You're funny.
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gr8Dad
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As are you. What is funny about it?
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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LexieBelle
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Cause your arguments are so ridiculous in this. Obviously he's a suspect because he's the spouse.. because he behaved VERY suspiciously following her disappearance, because he's refused to cooperate with authorities in terms of questioning him etc etc etc etc. Let's count the ways he warrants being a "suspect". It's funny to listen to you make this jackhole out to be the victim here. Sad funny but funny nonetheless.
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gr8Dad
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"because he behaved VERY suspiciously following her disappearance"
Define suspiciously.
"because he's refused to cooperate with authorities in terms of questioning him etc etc etc etc"
And how long would YOU cooperate, when they were looking for NO ONE but YOU, and ONLY questioning YOU, when you knew you didn't do it?
"It's funny to listen to you make this jackhole out to be the victim here. Sad funny but funny nonetheless."
Not NEARLY as funny as listening to you convict him based on your GUT feeling.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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ssmom79
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"Actually, no, it is not. A pedophile that has not ACTED on his or her desires, and is not in possession of illegal material has JUST as much a right to keep their kids as anyone else." --> we will just have to agree to disagree here.
You didn't say be arrested for the desires. You said they had a right to keep their kids. You also said they're a pedophile. I don't think a pedophile has a right to their children. So you would let your children stay with a pedophile so long as they haven't acted on the desire?
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LexieBelle
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For starters? Taking a two and four year old camping , after midnight, in below freezing weather. Have you watched the ABC interview where he obviously has zero reason for why they went? Finally came up with ludicrous idea that they were maybe looking for rocks.. After mudnight.. In subfreezing temps. Yeah, that's not at all suspicious. Then there's the statement where he refers to himself as a little boy. That was downright creepy.
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SweetLight
Pooh-Bah
Reged: 01/07/10
Posts: 2003
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"Nope, you are WRONG, and I am RIGHT. You CANNOT be arrested for your "desires"
----->Josh Powell never was arrested, Gr8Dad. And just in case you want to read up:
w ww.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53537666-78/powell-documents-manley-charlie.html.csp
ETA- For the psychological report:
w ww.scribd.com/doc/81994361/Josh-Powell-psychological-report
Edited by SweetLight (02/17/12 11:52 PM)
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Loretta
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It's been 2 years, not three. I live in this area and get Salt Lake City (West Valley City is a suburb) channels.
You don't go camping in the SLC area in December, period. You sure as heck don't take children camping in December there. The neighbors, friends, and family, including members of Josh's family, believe he is guilty. The boys were starting to talk. Josh was evil. The cops have evidence. They just didn't want to risk losing the case as in the Casey Anthony case. The case was coming to a head, he couldn't face prison and planned one final act of revenge against the people who knew he was guilty. No rush in the case now, they will continue the investigation. Your comment Regarding his corpse hurting his children disturbs me. No murderer should be allowed to be buried next to their victim, bless Josh's mom for dropping that and giving the Cox family this tiny bit of comfort. I can not imagine their pain.
So heartbreaking. I pray Susan's family never stumbles across these posts by you.
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gr8Dad
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"You don't go camping in the SLC area in December, period. You sure as heck don't take children camping in December there."
Maybe YOU don't. Maybe someone else does. Has NO relation to whether or not he had anything to do with her disappearance.
"The neighbors, friends, and family, including members of Josh's family, believe he is guilty."
If it wasn't for that whole LACK OF ANY EVIDENCE.
"The cops have evidence. They just didn't want to risk losing the case as in the Casey Anthony case. The case was coming to a head, he couldn't face prison and planned one final act of revenge against the people who knew he was guilty."
And IF and WHEN that evidence is released, I will consider it. But I will not convict someone, or come to a decision based on MIGHT exist. That is one of the tenets of our country.
"So heartbreaking. I pray Susan's family never stumbles across these posts by you."
I love it, because I am not ready to convict a person, based on ZERO evidence, the family should be heartbroken? I want to true killer to be convicted and face justice. If that is Josh, so be it, but that has not been proven.
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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...
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Loretta
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Reged: 06/02/05
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I'm a Utah girl. Nobody goes camping in Utah in December at midnight with children, not me, not anybody. That, in it's self, is enough evidence for me. Plenty more though.
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