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garnet
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Custody and Summer Camp
      #783167 - 04/16/12 11:01 AM

I have sole legal and primary physical custody of dd. She wants to go to a one week (really 5 days) sleep away camp at the end of the summer. I think it would be a great experience for her. Ex disagrees and will not voluntarily agree to her attending the camp. I tried to reach a compromise with him, and even offered him an extra night with dd upon her return to make up for the mid-week overnight that she would miss while at camp. He still won't agree. My question is this: I have sole legal custody, which means I can make all parenting decisions with or without his agreement (I prefer to do it with, but that doesn't seem possible here). But can I make a decision that will affect his parenting time with her (the mid week overnight) without his consent?

I truly believe this is a good thing for dd and hate to see her deprived of the opportunity. I don't want to make a decision that is out of bounds, and I am willing work out an arrangement with ex to make up missed time. Unfortunately, he won't compromise.

Thanks in advance for your input and advice.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783168 - 04/16/12 11:12 AM

I appears he is not against giving up the day, he is against the child going away to camp.

"My question is this: I have sole legal custody, which means I can make all parenting decisions with or without his agreement (I prefer to do it with, but that doesn't seem possible here)."

You appear to want him to "compromise" on his opinion that she NOT go to camp by allowing her to go to camp, YOUR compromise on you WANTING her to go to camp is that she is going to camp. Doesn't seem very "fair" now, does it?

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garnet
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: gr8Dad]
      #783172 - 04/16/12 11:19 AM

gr8Dad - Nothing about the situation is "fair." There is no way that we will both be happy with the outcome because we fundamentally disagree on what decision should be made. If this is good for dd (and I do recognize that is a matter of opinion) is it fair for her to be deprived simply because her father disagrees?

The bottom line is that we could agree on things, we might still be together, or at the very least have a joint custody arrangement. We don't because co-parenting was not viable in our situation. I have been desperately trying to find a way to make this work because I am trying to minimize any conflict. My question is, if we can't come to a mutual agreement, do I still have the right to make the decision I think best even if it impacts his parenting time?


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783174 - 04/16/12 11:40 AM

"If this is good for dd (and I do recognize that is a matter of opinion) is it fair for her to be deprived simply because her father disagrees?"

If Dad has valid concerns, is it right to ignore them because YOU disagree?

"My question is, if we can't come to a mutual agreement, do I still have the right to make the decision I think best even if it impacts his parenting time?"

You do not. Now, is there another week during the summer when you have uninterrupted parenting time?

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Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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c_jane
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783181 - 04/16/12 01:05 PM

The courts gave you sole decision making for a reason. Send your Ex a certified letter, return receipt requested notifying him of your DD going to camp. Mention that you realize he will miss his visitation on XX date because of this. Therefore here are X,Y,Z dates that you are willing to give him to make it up. Or ask him which date(s) he would like to substitute?

Whatever -- it shows YOUR willingness to compromise and HIS willingness to make an AZZ out of himself.

--------------------
John Constantine: God's a kid with an ant farm.... He's not planning anything.


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elliesmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: c_jane]
      #783183 - 04/16/12 01:10 PM

I would send him a certified letter indicating your intent to enroll her in camp, why you think it is a good idea, and asking that he reply with objections/concerns in writing by a certain date. Indicate your willingness to give up a weekend in exchange for the missed midweek visitation. You already know he doesn't like the idea, if it is worth overruling him, I say it is worth a weekend. And see where that goes. I like to cross all my "t's" etc. and would want to be darn sure I was doing the right thing before I did something that completely went against the other parent. He may have some valid concerns or you may be able to address his concerns - you never know.

I think if you do that - even if you end up deciding to overrule him - you can keep yourself out of any legal trouble.

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Avaya
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783190 - 04/16/12 02:07 PM

IMO it doesn't matter what kind of custody you have if the (any) event will interfere with his visitation time. His time trumps your custody if he doesn't agree. Find things that benefit her and wont interfere with his time.

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Eternity is too long to be wrong.


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garnet
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: elliesmom]
      #783191 - 04/16/12 02:08 PM

C_jane and elliesmom - I have already had numerous written communications via email on this subject, so while not certified, it is certianly well documented. I have tried to address his concerns, but to no avail. We simply do not - and will not - agree on this subject. I've tried offering several schedule changes and accommodations, in hopes of bringing him around, but that hasn't helped either.

I'll probably get jumped on for saying this, but my personal theory is that Ex sees this as one small decision in which he can assert control and he is not willing to relinquish that power for anything, not even dd.

gr8Dad - I am not sure why you are so hostile about this. If two parents disagree on what is best, obviously there are two opposing view points. That is not to say that I haven't listened to, considered, or tried to address Ex's concerns. How would you propose to resolve such situations. One party will always be unhappy. By your arguements, it would seem that any time the parties disagree, the one saying "no" will always trump because the other parent shouldn't take action in opposition to that parent's wishes. That can't possibly be the best outcome.

To answer your question, we each get one interrupted week of vacation time with dd during the summer. Is your suggestion that I swap my vacation week and use it to send dd to camp? I suppose that is another option. I will give it serious consideration, but based on your "fairness" arguments, is it fair that the only way I can send dd to camp is if I give up any and all of my vacation time with her? And is it fair to dd to have to miss out on a planned family vacation because her father won't agree to camp? Why should the child have to sacrifice one for the other?


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elliesmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: Avaya]
      #783193 - 04/16/12 02:12 PM

That is a little ridiculous standard if you never have a week of uninterrupted time on paper. Kids do stuff. If you make up the time (personally I think time and half is the least one can do unless you have 50-50), give enough notice, I think kids should get to have a life.

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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.


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elliesmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783194 - 04/16/12 02:18 PM

What, exactly, are his concerns? (I am trying to imagine any legitimate concern about CAMP for pete's sake and that is probably affecting my response, LOL)

I am not for giving up your vacation just so he doesn't trade wednesday for 2 days. Frankly - my husband would have JUMPED at the chance to have 2 days instead of 1. If he won't - I have to wonder how concerned he really is about his "time" with his child. Make sure you offer the "make up" days in advance - so he knows he won't get shafted.

If he makes a legal stink about it - I would counterfile to modify the decree to provide for more than 1 weeks vacation. Lots of people take longer vacations than that. And if he won't negotiate reasonably - then you have to modify. And you will probably win if you can show a good faith effort on your part, and not on his.

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Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783196 - 04/16/12 02:30 PM

"I am not sure why you are so hostile about this."

I have not been hostile in the least, but that you SEE it as hostile is very telling.

"If two parents disagree on what is best, obviously there are two opposing view points. That is not to say that I haven't listened to, considered, or tried to address Ex's concerns."

What are his concerns?

"By your arguements, it would seem that any time the parties disagree, the one saying "no" will always trump because the other parent shouldn't take action in opposition to that parent's wishes. That can't possibly be the best outcome."

Well, when it cancels or rearranges HIS parenting time, yes, he SHOULD have final say in it.

"Is your suggestion that I swap my vacation week and use it to send dd to camp? I suppose that is another option. I will give it serious consideration, but based on your "fairness" arguments, is it fair that the only way I can send dd to camp is if I give up any and all of my vacation time with her?"

Well, you seem to think HIM giving up vacation time is okay, so why NOT you? YOU want her to go to camp, so she should do so on YOUR time, not interfer with his. If he is willing to allow it, great, but he is not, so you have to find a work around.

For the record, your "sole" decision making authority does NOT give you the right to randomly rearrange HIS parenting time.

"And is it fair to dd to have to miss out on a planned family vacation because her father won't agree to camp?"

Is it fair for the child to miss out on her time with her Dad because YOU want her to go to camp?

"Why should the child have to sacrifice one for the other?"

Because in LIFE< we all have to learn that we can't do everything.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: elliesmom]
      #783197 - 04/16/12 02:33 PM

I am wondering what the concerns are as well. Now, keep in mind, "camp" is a very braod topic. It could be the TYPE of camp (fat camp, etc) or that Mom frquently plans things that interfer with his time, and this was simply the last straw.

If we knew WHY he was against it, it would be a btter scene.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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elliesmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: gr8Dad]
      #783199 - 04/16/12 02:37 PM

Really - I usually come down on the side of the NCP. But this - is silly. Its a ONE NIGHT per week that she is willing to make up and he has PLENTY of notice about. Its not about the time - its his way of stopping what she wants to do with it. Since as a parent I would never live my life where I couldn't send my kid to CAMP, I would either modify the decree or do it anyway. Or both. ANd whats good for the goose as they say - I think 1 week vacation for HIM is too little also. So I would propose that you BOTH get more than 1 week uninterrupted.

--------------------
Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: elliesmom]
      #783204 - 04/16/12 02:48 PM

"But this - is silly. Its a ONE NIGHT per week that she is willing to make up and he has PLENTY of notice about."

Again, we don't know the HISTORY.

"Its not about the time - its his way of stopping what she wants to do with it."

Well, I think it is premature to say that as we do not know what his reasons are.

" Since as a parent I would never live my life where I couldn't send my kid to CAMP, I would either modify the decree or do it anyway."

Well, suppose you thought your kid was healthy and fine, but your ex wanted to take YOUR time and send the kid to a FAT camp, which was COMPLETELY in opposition to your beliefs?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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elliesmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: gr8Dad]
      #783206 - 04/16/12 02:56 PM

Does "fat camp" even exist for kids?

I wouldn't like it if I thought it was unneeded. But I can't imagine that such a place wouldn't be run by doctors who would prescribe a healthy safe diet. And I would have to think such a place would treat the kids with dignity even if they were there to lose weight. A little education about exercise and nutrition never hurt anyone.

The closest I come to being on his side would be a religious camp that I didn't agree with (say - wiccan or something). But then - ya know - I assume that is what her sole decision making designation is for. So I still don't get there.

--------------------
Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.


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garnet
journeyman


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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: elliesmom]
      #783213 - 04/16/12 03:06 PM

Thank you for all of the feedback. I will try to answer your question about Ex's objections:
1. He thinks she is too immature
2. He thinks it will be like one big slumber party where she won't get any sleep all week and will come home sick.
3. He thinks it will be a potential disaster (I have tried to get him to articulate what kind of "disaster" he imagines in hopes of addressing it, but he doesn't respond to this question).

On the subject of immaturity, I simply disagree and have told him that if anything, the camp environment will give her an opportunity to grow and mature. On the subject of sleep, I explained that not only will the kids be exhausted from a full day of activities, but they will be sleeping in a cabin with an adult counselor who will also want to sleep and will not allow the kids to stay up all hours of the night. I don't know what he imagines to be the disaster, but I can't think of anything catastrophic that might occur in 5 days away from home. Personally, I think it would do dd good to have time away from both of us. She is an only child, and no matter how hard I try to shield her from it, she is definitely sensitive to the conflict between Ex and me. I would love to give her a week of complete freedom from that burden and opportunity to start figuring out who she is and what she wants independent of the two of us.

The camp is not a specialized camp, but is a one week extension of the day camp she has attended for several years. It is simply designed to give a bunch of city kids a week in the country and have a traditional camp experience.

Furthermore, to respond to one of the comments made above, this isn't simply something that I want for dd. This is something that SHE wants and is begging for. I am not looking to "randomly rearrange" ex's parenting time, and have tried to address any inequity that would occur in missing his mid week overnight.

To clarify about the vacation time, we each get one week in the summer (and alternate years for who gets to choose first). We do have other uninterrupted vacation weeks during the rest of the school year (Spring break, Christmas break, etc). I wasn't sure if that was clear.

In the end, I am probably not looking to start World War III over a 5 day sleep away camp. I've already spent more than enough time in court on custody and the divorce in general. I came looking for advice because I really would like to give dd this opportunity and was trying to figure out what legal rights I do or don't have in this case. I was never looking to run roughshod over Ex's rights, time, etc. I will probably let it go for this year, but it will rear its head again next Summer.


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garnet
journeyman


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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783216 - 04/16/12 03:11 PM

Also, since it was raised, I do not plan things that interfere with Ex's time. If anything, I respect his time religiously. There have been many family events that dd has missed because they were scheduled during ex's time and I didn't feel right about infringing on his time with dd. Furthermore, since we are rarely able to come to quick and easy agreements about schedule changes, I usually avoid the conflict altogether by not asking for an accommodation unless it is for something REALLY important.

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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783217 - 04/16/12 03:21 PM

How old is she?

" I was never looking to run roughshod over Ex's rights"

Well, how would you define, "Ex is against it, can I send her anyway?" other than running roughshod over his rights?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783218 - 04/16/12 03:22 PM

"I usually avoid the conflict altogether by not asking for an accommodation unless it is for something REALLY important."

And how many times a year does it become "Really important". That you have said you do it, indicates that it has been done (you rearranged his parenting time for something you wanted). So how many times are we talking about?

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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garnet
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: gr8Dad]
      #783223 - 04/16/12 03:52 PM

DD is 9 years old.

The last time I asked ex for a scheduling accommodation was last Summer for my father's 70th birthday (big family party, people came in from all over the country for it). He did not give me an accommodation. So I request once every year or two. Is that excessive in your book?

My original inquiry was to ascertain my rights (and conversely, his). If the answer is that I am not legally entitled to make that judgment call, I would accept that. I might not be happy about it and would still try to persuade Ex otherwise, but I would accept it. Therefore, no, I would not consider that an attempt to run roughshod over ex's rights.


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783224 - 04/16/12 04:01 PM

"DD is 9 years old."

Okay, I think that is old enough to go to camp, but he obviously disagrees.

"So I request once every year or two. Is that excessive in your book?"

Nope, not at all, just trying to get a complete picture.

"If the answer is that I am not legally entitled to make that judgment call, I would accept that."

The question is a complex one. Yes, you are LEGALLY entitled to decide that she go to camp. What you are NOT legally entitled to do is interfer with his parenting time. So come up with a creative work around. Pick her up from camp on Wednesday evening (or whatever day is his) deliver her, and after the parenting time is up, take her back to camp. WORST case, she misses a few hours at camp.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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elliesmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: gr8Dad]
      #783229 - 04/16/12 05:49 PM

gr8dad has the safest option, but personally I would probably just go with - I want 2 weeks interrupted this summer, and I am willing to extend the same to you. And just do it. From what I have seen of family court, given that you have tried to negotiate and he has basically refused to come to the table over a mundane issue - you don't have anything to worry about. If no other reason - than I wouldn't want to be hostage to this issue (or similar - I mean what if you got a 2 week paid vacation in Maui?) year after year. 1 week summer vacation is unusually short, but works just fine when both parties can be reasonable when things come up.

And I will call him completely unreasonable over this. The child wants to go, it isn't a safety/moral issue, and its a few hours you are willing to make up.

--------------------
Forgiveness is...letting go of the hope that the past can be changed.


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Goodmom
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783230 - 04/16/12 06:30 PM

Does your court order address vacation time during the summer? Typically, each parent gets uninterrupted time during the summer for a vacation. If your court order allows for that, well, choose the week that your child will be going to summer camp. If it doesn't address vacation time, you may want to file a motion so that both of you get at least 2 weeks uninterrupted vacation time each summer, alternate who gets to choose the weeks first. Word it something like you get even years and he gets odd years or vice versa.

This will be costly unless he agrees to it. But it will eliminate this problem that you are having.

Also, is the summer camp only during the week? If it is on week-ends, maybe you can send her to it on one of your week-ends. He can disagree all he wants, since you have sole legal, you have the final say.


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c_jane
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: elliesmom]
      #783233 - 04/16/12 07:28 PM

[quote] Its not about the time - its his way of stopping what she wants to do with it.[/quote]

^^^ THIS^^^^^

Her Ex has found SOMETHING he can CONTROL & has run with it. Something he has power to say 'no' over and wreck havoc with her DD's plans of WANTING to go to this camp.

How far away is this camp? What about if you enroll her and go get her and take her to Father of the Year's house on Wednesday night, pick her up the next morning and take her back to camp?

Or depending on what your decree says and where the camp is, tell FOTY that your DD will be at the camp but you've made arrangements & cleared it with the camp director for him to pick her up Wednesday at his regular time, and he can deliver her back to camp the next morning when he regularly would.
She'll only miss one night, FOTY can't say sh!t about it, and there's no more compromising to do.

--------------------
John Constantine: God's a kid with an ant farm.... He's not planning anything.

Edited by c_jane (04/16/12 07:31 PM)


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gr8Dad
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: c_jane]
      #783234 - 04/16/12 07:34 PM

"Her Ex has found SOMETHING he can CONTROL & has run with it. Something he has power to say 'no' over and wreck havoc with her DD's plans of WANTING to go to this camp."

Why are HIS reasons for not wanting the child to go somehow about "control", yet HER desire to NOT use her uninterupted week for camp, and still schedule it when he will miss time with the child as okay?

Oh yeah, because SHE has T!TS and he has a D!CK, and you side with the woman EVERY TIME.

Bottom line, I have seen you call UNINVOLVED Dads out, and now we have an INVOLVED DAD, and you are calling him out for insisting on his time. YOU are biased, and it shows.

--------------------
Why give a "senior" discount, they have had plenty of time to raise the money...


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garnet
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: gr8Dad]
      #783237 - 04/16/12 07:52 PM

Thank you again for the suggestions. I will give serious consideration to using my vacation week to send dd to camp. The camp is only for those five weekdays, so using one of my weekends is not an option. I don't think bringing her home for the mid week overnight is feasible due to the distance (a 2 hour drive each way), and given that the whole thing is only five days, I think it would be unduly disruptive.

I wish I had known that 2 weeks summer vacation was more the norm. I would have put that in my proposed parenting plan. Custody has already been fully litigated. It was ugly. I have no desire to go back and reopen things just to get the order modified for longer summer breaks. As much as the situation frustrates me, it is not a battle worth fighting in court. It is sad that we can't agree on even these small things, but based on my past experience there will be much bigger fish to fry at some point down the road.


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LexieBelle
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: garnet]
      #783244 - 04/16/12 10:06 PM

No, sole legal custody doesn't afford you the ability to make decisions that would modify the other parents visitation. He doesn't agree to it, you'd be in contempt for not having her available.

I'd say you have to use your own 1 week to do it if you want it done.

For the record, I'm CP in my case, sole legal custody, whose NCP doesn't actually use ANY extended visitation. And I still wouldn't make a plan for something on "his" time, without his agreement. You've gotta use your week.


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Avaya
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Re: Custody and Summer Camp [Re: elliesmom]
      #783257 - 04/17/12 10:35 AM

[quote]That is a little ridiculous standard if you never have a week of uninterrupted time on paper. [/quote]

When you sign on the dotted line, you're agreeing to those terms. Sure it might stink sometimes, but you know it going in, it's not a surprise. Don't like it + can't get the other parent to cooperate = request revision. Until then, you comply.

--------------------
Eternity is too long to be wrong.


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