english7
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Reged: 11/27/09
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"I do not believe our government is tyrannical, but it has and does commit tyrannical acts."
Wouldn't committing tyrannical acts make a government tyrannical? You've simply defined it.
The things you mention are related to security. Taking of property? That's a painful one, I agree.
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english7
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"Only as stuck as a government that still believes in taxation without representation. I guess you can add that to the list of tyrannical acts by the government. Along with law enforcement using military owned and operated Predator drones to spy on citizens without a warrant."
Taxation without representation? Is there a particular tax you object to most?
As to the drones, I can't see the problem there. Police helicopters spy, Google documents...as long as you don't set up your meth lab or S & M dungeon in your backyard, what's the concern?
The difference between us is that you don't trust your government, and I do.
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Sherron
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Reged: 11/25/06
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"Wouldn't committing tyrannical acts make a government tyrannical? You've simply defined it."
No, there is a difference between an entity and their actions. A child can make dumb decisions, that doesn't make the child dumb.
"The things you mention are related to security. Taking of property? That's a painful one, I agree."
But do you find them tyrannical?
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
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Sherron
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"Taxation without representation? Is there a particular tax you object to most?"
In the context of taxation without representation… property tax.
"As to the drones, I can't see the problem there. Police helicopters spy, Google documents...as long as you don't set up your meth lab or S & M dungeon in your backyard, what's the concern?"
I am tempted to ask what laws an S&M dungeon in your backyard breaks, but no sense in entertaining a side step. One of the problems I have is that no warrant was obtained before its use. I guess that is not a big concern to the "you have nothing to worry about if you're not doing anything wrong" crowd. Secondly... predator drones were designed for military use, they are tools of war. Are you okay with tools of war being used by someone other than the military?
"The difference between us is that you don't trust your government, and I do."
There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
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english7
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Reged: 11/27/09
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"No, there is a difference between an entity and their actions. A child can make dumb decisions, that doesn't make the child dumb."
Your analogy doesn't quite work, IMO. The prevailing thought these days is that a child is not an "entity." Children are expected to learn from their mistakes. A better analogy might be an insurance company that intentionally pads Medicare bills being considered an unlawful or fraudulent company.
"But do you find them tyrannical?" No, I do not.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
This is a great quote. I'm not sure that what you are talking about is "essential liberty" but you can disagree. I see essential liberty as some core right those in our society largely agree is valuable. The things you mention are not seen as tyrannical by the majority of Americans. The Tea Party, yes. What's also interesting is that Franklin first wrote this when we were fighting alongside the British in the F & I War--before our Constitution. He used it after that in speaking about our government, though. Anyway, including the passage was a sneaky way to tell me I'm stupidly giving away my freedom. I'm not. Freedom comes at a cost, as does security. Neither are absolute. I have no illusions about that.
Your last statement about prison is not worth a response.
Edited to fix some wording.
Edited by english7 (07/25/12 02:02 PM)
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english7
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"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. "
And there is a danger in assuming quotations from our founding fathers carry the exact meaning or can be used in the same context in our time. Nostalgia is the illusion that times past were ideal. And that is my own wording.
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english7
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Reged: 11/27/09
Posts: 3000
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" Secondly... predator drones were designed for military use, they are tools of war. Are you okay with tools of war being used by someone other than the military?"
The military also had a substantial influence in the invention of the Internet, but we adopted this way of searching and communicating with no problem. Drones will likely be adopted by our police forces. They are incredibly expensive right now, so I can see why law enforcement doesn't yet own them (at least I don't think they do). So, no, I don't have a problem with their use in searching for terrorists or drug dealers in the US, if that's what they're used for.
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Sherron
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"Your analogy doesn't quite work, IMO. The prevailing thought these days is that a child is not an "entity." Children are expected to learn from their mistakes. A better analogy might be an insurance company that intentionally pads Medicare bills would be considered an unlawful company."
Children are expected to learn from their mistakes, and maybe that it where we differ, but I also expect my government to learn from its mistakes. The analogy may not work for you, but do you agree with the premise that there is a difference between an action and the entity behind the action... if anyone makes a dumb decision, does that make them dumb?
You state that you do not find any of my examples tyrannical. I am not interested in changing your mind, your opinion is as valid as mine... but I am interested what actions you would find tyrannical, since a government killing its own citizens doesn't do it, torture doesn't do it, seizing private property and giving it to another private citizen doesn't do it. What does "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" mean to you?
"This is a great quote. I'm not sure that what you are talking about is "essential liberty" but you can disagree."
The Bill of Rights is a good start.
"I see essential liberty as some core value those in our society largely agree is valuable. The things you mention are not seen as tyrannical by the majority of Americans. The Tea Party, yes."
I am not a member of the tea party.
"What's also interesting is that Franklin first wrote this when we were fighting alongside the British in the F & I War--before our Constitution. He used it after that in speaking about our government, though. Anyway, including the passage was a sneaky way to tell me I'm stupidly giving away my freedom. I'm not. Freedom comes at a cost, as does security. Neither are absolute. I have no illusions about that."
Including that passage was an attempt to better explain my view on the subject. I am not responsible for your interpretation of it.
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Sherron
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/25/06
Posts: 20052
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"And there is a danger in assuming quotations from our founding fathers carry the exact meaning or can be used in the same context in our time. Nostalgia is the illusion that times past were ideal. And that is my own wording."
Nostalgia is longing for the past. I don't long for the past, but I do believe it is still relevant to today. Why recreate the wheel when someone much smarter than I am has expressed the sentiment better than I could.
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Sherron
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/25/06
Posts: 20052
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"The military also had a substantial influence in the invention of the Internet, but we adopted this way of searching and communicating with no problem. Drones will likely be adopted by our police forces. They are incredibly expensive right now, so I can see why law enforcement doesn't yet own them (at least I don't think they do). So, no, I don't have a problem with their use in searching for terrorists or drug dealers in the US, if that's what they're used for. "
Your analogy does not work, IMO. The internet was not designed to kill. Maybe a better analogy would be assault weapons. And yes, there is law enforcement that owns them, as well as law enforcement that calls upon the military to operate their drones. The concern is not search and seizure; it is search and seizure that falls outside of the 4th amendment. You have no concerns with law enforcement operating outside of the Constitution?
You feel safe and that is great. I grew up in Germany. I grew up in country that still endures the shame of a population that looked the other way while its government killed its own. I do not ever want that to happen to my children, or yours, and if the second amendment is what keeps the non tyrannical government in check, so be it. If killing a citizen without due process is not tyrannical, where do you draw the line? At 6 million?
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