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#682646 - 11/30/10 01:16 PM Hi...
neveragain71 Offline

recently joined

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 1
I have been with my husband since 1989 we were married in 1996. We have two beautiful children who are my world. Here is the problem: I should have left him two years into dating him. That was when he started telling me about all the things that were wrong with me, i.e., acne scars...I could name something wrong for each body part, Literally! I have tried to leave twice, both times came back. We have been to marriage counseling and I have been to counseling on my own as well as he had when we separated in 2009. Now I find myself contemplating divorce yet again...the latest incident was his raising his fist to me twice Sunday night...part of me wishes he would have hit me just so that there would be an end to it....I am not here to "air out" my dirty laundry...I am here for help, advice and possibly friendship. I want to do what is in the best interest of my children even if that means leaving my husband....Thank you

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#682647 - 12/02/10 06:10 PM Re: Hi... [Re: neveragain71]
nolonger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
Welcome. This may not be the right place for you to find friendship, especially on the abuse forum. You may find good advice, bad advice and totally off the wall comments from those who intend to harm. Just a FYI.

What holds you back from divorce? I was married in 1993, had 4 kids and can say, too, that I should have left the first time we broke up in 1989.

Well 15 years later and it's much harder to leave. What held me back was the kids. I couldn't break their heart and our family.

Until he started being abusive with the kids in the same room. Then I knew it was far worse for me to stay and they witness the abuse of their mother.

It was far more difficult than I thought but looking back, it all made me stronger.

If divorce is what you want, do your homework. Be prepared. Expect the worst and worse than that. Keep safe and have a plan for any scenario. Leaving is the most dangerous time for a woman.

But you will get through it. There is light at the end of the tunnel and new life beyond that.

Make the most of it if you get out. And keep your chin up. Tell yourself how beautiful you are inside and out and forget his lies.

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#682648 - 12/22/10 11:39 PM Re: Hi... [Re: neveragain71]
yregna Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 1265
Loc: Oregon
You are weak, you use this man for money, and you complain about it ?

Why can't you make it on your own ? Try getting a job fer chrissake !
_________________________
"Anything free is worth what you pay for it..." "Climate is what we expect, weather is what we get"

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#682649 - 12/23/10 02:17 AM Re: Hi... [Re: yregna]
Maury Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 8182
Loc: This Asylum --->
You should not have married. You stayed in the marriage too long and it seems that you hope abuse will occur in order to better your position in the divorce. None of those are particularly redeeming factual issues.

The bottom line is that you were married and had children. Now you wish to divorce which means dividing assets, debts and arriving a suitable parenting time plan that works for both parents and the children. You may wish to start with mediation. If you are uncomfortable doing so alone, you may wish to hire counsel.

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#682650 - 12/23/10 04:54 PM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
english7 Offline

Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 3165
"You stayed in the marriage too long and it seems that you hope abuse will occur in order to better your position in the divorce"

If you haven't listened to threats and insults for years, you would not understand what the poster means by just getting hit and having and end to it.

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#682651 - 12/23/10 04:56 PM Re: Hi... [Re: english7]
Maury Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 8182
Loc: This Asylum --->
Threats and insults do not constitute domestic abuse.

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#682652 - 12/23/10 05:10 PM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
english7 Offline

Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 3165
And I did not say they did.

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#682653 - 12/27/10 11:43 AM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
nolonger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
[quote]Threats and insults do not constitute domestic abuse. [/quote]

What planet are you on?

Yes, threats DO constitute domestic abuse. Perhaps what you intended to write was that well-documented threats will not be taken seriously by the law (officers, judges and lawyers) until she's already physically hurt.

This would bring her to her initial point - that she almost wished he would cross that line so she could prove to the ignorant world of fools that she deserves to leave.

What she may not know is, she doesn't need physical scares to leave. Her scars are already there. Unfortunately, because of attitudes perpetuated by some people here, those scars aren't good enough, and she risks looking like the bad guy.

I say, who cares what you look like (bad guy or not)! Get out and stay out. And steer clear of bad advice from this forum!

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#682654 - 01/05/11 04:12 AM Re: Hi... [Re: nolonger]
jaiye Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 860
NL Maury is an attorney and was giving her legal advise.

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#682655 - 01/05/11 03:45 PM Re: Hi... [Re: jaiye]
english7 Offline

Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 3165
According to Virginia law, "16.1-228. "Family abuse" means any act involving violence, force, or threat including, but not limited to, any forceful detention, which results in bodily injury or places one in reasonable apprehension of bodily injury and which is committed by a person against such person's family or household member."

So threats on one's life count, as does forceful detention. I don't think name calling or insults can be said to be a criminal act/misdemeanor. Emotional abuse is certainly a good reason to leave a spouse, though.

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#682656 - 01/11/11 08:34 PM Re: Hi... [Re: english7]
nolonger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
[quote]According to Virginia law, "16.1-228. "Family abuse" means any act involving violence, force, or threat including, but not limited to, any forceful detention, which results in bodily injury or places one in reasonable apprehension of bodily injury and which is committed by a person against such person's family or household member."

So threats on one's life count, as does forceful detention. I don't think name calling or insults can be said to be a criminal act/misdemeanor. Emotional abuse is certainly a good reason to leave a spouse, though. [/quote]

If he raised his fist to hit her, that's a bit more than name calling and insults. That IS a threat.

I just wish people would get their head outta their arse when it comes to verbal and emotional abuse! There's a WHOLE lot more going on besides name calling. It's brainwashing and control.

Perhaps you all do have a point, however. A child abductor typically does not get punished for brainwashing and controlling his victim. They get punished for the resulting actions against their vics.

So I suppose I just helped you make your point. Still doesn't mean the law is good enough.

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#682657 - 01/13/11 04:21 PM Re: Hi... [Re: nolonger]
Maury Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 8182
Loc: This Asylum --->
I am afraid "emotional abuse" is extremely subjective and, to a great extent, an overused and misused term. Often, it describes little more than arguments related to disagreements.

In most cases, threats only become a basis for a restraining order or criminal action if they indicate an imminent threat of actual physical harm.

Did he raised his fist to hit her, or did he raise his fist in anger and shake it in the air in frustration? How the message is sent and how it is received can be very different.

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#682658 - 01/15/11 01:39 AM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
english7 Offline

Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 3165
"Often, it describes little more than arguments related to disagreements."

What can you back this up with? I lived through true emotional abuse for 18 years. We almost never argued. I now know I was at fault for not leaving him sooner. But during most of the marriage, he had me believing that I was inept at most everything. I stupidly kept trying to show him i was not. Emotional abuse is very real and damaging. It should not be slighted, especially by a lawyer. You should be careful not to use the word "Often" with this.

"In most cases, threats only become a basis for a restraining order or criminal action if they indicate an imminent threat of actual physical harm."

This is very true and is as it should be.

"Did he raised his fist to hit her, or did he raise his fist in anger and shake it in the air in frustration? How the message is sent and how it is received can be very different."

Oh come on! How many "victims" try to pull a fist raised in the air in frustration off as an example of abuse? If they did, no police officer would take them seriously.

No, the kinds of things you mention are not abuse. Maybe I am different than so very many others??? who have been abused in that I did not initiate an argument, argue back when threatened, make any moves toward him, etc. There was only one time when I acted in what I felt was self defense: I was pushed into a walk-in closet and I hit my head so hard on the oak door casing that I couldn't believe how much it hurt. When I stood up, I went into survival mode. I thought I had to fight for my life. He dodged my hand and punched me in the jaw. Then he was sorry. Again.

Well, I'm sorry, Maury, but I can't let your post stand without letting you know that abuse, emotional (which can be absolute torture) or physical, is nothing to scoff at.
When it comes to abuse, many victims are not even able to see it for what it is b/c they believe they are somehow to blame.

Emotional abuse most often accompanies physical. I don't know how to explain it to you in just one little post. But it's very real and very damaging.

My first husband wanted me down as low as he could get me. Then he wanted more. He was not satisfied. He was that insecure and messed up. I stayed strong throughout, so he had to keep trying harder. He nearly extinguished my spirit.

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#682659 - 01/17/11 03:29 PM Re: Hi... [Re: english7]
Maury Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 8182
Loc: This Asylum --->
I can back it up with 20 years of dealing with such accusations in a myriad of cases. In fact, I recall one particular case where a court entered a restraining order becauise a spouse blocked a door with his arm during an argument and sternly said, "we have to talk about this." Blocking egress was the basis for the entry of the order.

Moreover, as you point out in your post, emotional abuse is subjective. You indicate that you were emotionally abused even though their were no arguments because you were made to feeel inept at things. The impact of your spouse's behavior depends on how it is received and perceived by you. Not every person would have felt the same way.

That is certainly an issue in divorce and one that may be assisted by counseling. It is not abuse from a legal standpoint, nor should it be.

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#682660 - 01/17/11 03:41 PM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
nolonger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
Interesting debate with good points on both sides. However, I still believe that lawyers, judges and officers are completely inept at deciphering abuse from claims of abuse because they are totally uneducated on the topic of abuse.

Someone who has been through it and has read expert's books on the topic is much better prepared to make a judgement on "if it's abuse" than someone who has merely "seen" cases related to the topic of abuse.

Maury, I respect your opinion, and I would LOVE it if you could back your opinion with something other than the cases you've seen in court.

Many many true abuse victims either don't know they're abused, get hammered in court, or are afraid of everything - the abuser retaliating, the law turning the tables or not believing them, etc. - and what is seen in court is so far from what goes on behind closed doors.

We MUST educate those professionals in a position to protect us to be able to properly discern abuse from arguements.

Those who perpetuate ignorance are pouring salt in the wounds of victims and survivors.

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#682661 - 01/17/11 03:45 PM Re: Hi... [Re: nolonger]
Maury Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 8182
Loc: This Asylum --->
Abuse from a legally provable standpoint is one thing. Emotional abuse, which is not a legal issue, is a therapeutic issue.

I have read books on abuse and attended a number of abuse CLE (Continuing Legal Education). Annual classes are required to be a qualified neutral. It does not make emotional abuse legally actionable and I do not believe it should be.

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#682662 - 01/17/11 03:51 PM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
nolonger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/08
Posts: 305
Thanks for clarifying. I agree with your point, even though I don't like it.

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#682663 - 01/17/11 04:54 PM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
english7 Offline

Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 3165
"I recall one particular case where a court entered a restraining order becauise a spouse blocked a door with his arm during an argument and sternly said, "we have to talk about this." Blocking egress was the basis for the entry of the order."

If that was the only reason for the RO, someone decided wrongly--or someone lied. Have you had any experience with claims of abuse in which an RO was justified?

"Moreover, as you point out in your post, emotional abuse is subjective. You indicate that you were emotionally abused even though their were no arguments because you were made to feeel inept at things. The impact of your spouse's behavior depends on how it is received and perceived by you. Not every person would have felt the same way."

There was really not much subjectivity to my emotional abuse. Lots of people saw it. His own father was contacted, and he explained how bad it was. We divorced with the grounds of cruel and inhumane treatment. That was not a misdemeanor, however. Only a masochist would think that sort treatment was okay, so you're reaching a bit on that.

My take on your perceptions is that you have become jaded. You attend classes on abuse, but they cover the legal aspects of it. You don't seem to care about the very real suffering that some go through. I'm glad you were not my lawyer.

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#682664 - 01/17/11 06:25 PM Re: Hi... [Re: english7]
Maury Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 8182
Loc: This Asylum --->
First, I never said the treatment was Okay. What I said was that it is not actionable because of its subjective nature. I have no doubt your emotional turmoil was genuine. That does not mean the term "emotional abuse" is not overused or even abused by those who would seek to benefit from it.

I am sorry that you had a difficult time.

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#682665 - 01/17/11 07:16 PM Re: Hi... [Re: Maury]
english7 Offline

Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/27/09
Posts: 3165
"That does not mean the term "emotional abuse" is not overused or even abused by those who would seek to benefit from it."

I have little doubt that it is abused by some, but isn't the opposing attorney supposed to root out that sort of thing? I mean, if an RO is ordered for the kinds of behaviors you mentioned, isn't the court in some way responsible? That they allow such things only perpetuates the problem.

"I am sorry that you had a difficult time."

Thanks for that, Maury. You have redeemed yourself in my eyes ;)

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#682666 - 01/24/11 01:24 AM Re: Hi... [Re: nolonger]
Rosie0159 Offline

recently joined

Registered: 01/24/11
Posts: 4
Abusive behavior escalates over time, so there will come a time when he does hit you, or in my case my husband kicked me. I was able to prove my case, so it is on record that he is domestically violent, berates me (still even though we are separated, calls me stupid, fat f****** [censored], and so on.
If you decide to leave and he has been unfaithful, and you can prove it,or he admits to it, then you can get an immediate divorce (depending on the laws in your state). You can look it up under the divorce laws for your state. Look under adultery.
Looking back I should have left many many years ago, not 38 years after getting married.
All the best to you. :D :D

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#682667 - 03/05/13 03:53 AM Re: Hi... [Re: english7]
patty7 Offline

recently joined

Registered: 03/04/13
Posts: 2
A man nolonger

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#682668 - 03/06/13 12:14 AM Re: Hi... [Re: patty7]
BeachBabeRN Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 3236
Loc: VA for 21 years, NC forever!
Yo, patty -- you're responding to posts that are YEARS old....

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