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#197505 - 02/21/07 11:56 PM child support
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
I need some serious advice and hopefully a lawyer out there will be reading this. I am divorced. We have two children. One is 20. Our son has been having severe stress the last 2 years due to the divorce, senior year stress, top of his class, etc.. As a result of the anxiety he has been hospitalized two times and more recently was hospitalized for a 3rd time with an eating disorder from which he almost died this past Dec. He is coming home in a week from being inpatient and now outpatient. The therapists want him to get his own place until he gets back to college in the fall. His parents will have to help support him with rent, food etc. My ex has been paying child support for him. The ex called today and told me we would have to talk about him not giving me support money for our son when he comes home. He then mentioned emancipation which scared me. Our son when he does come home will have approx. 5 dr's visits a week and will be unable to work very much for a while. I agree that obviously child support would have to change but he continued to talk about emancipation. I explained to him the college still considers him as enrolled full time but just not taking courses right now. I need some advice. I live in NJ. I don't have a lawyer anymore since it cost me $35K for the divorce. What should I do. I'm worried that if he stops paying me support he will not give that money to our son and may try to emancipate him. He has not paid any money for college for our son as he agreed to in the divorce papers. The agreement stated we would both help pay, but no amount was agreed upon. I have been paying the interest on the loan and have given our son a small amount for tuition. There are many other times I have been supporting our son with supplements for weight gain, etc. Should I see a lawyer and who in South Jersey?

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#197506 - 02/22/07 12:42 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
almostheaven Offline
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Loc: West Virginia
If you have counselor's testimony and can show his enrollment status as still being full-time, it's extremely unlikely that a court would rule your son emancipated. It's all dependant upon how well you present your case. And while you can do it without a lawyer, one would be advisable if you want to increase your chances of winning. Being that your ex KNOWS your son is not truly an emancipation case (since he IS still enrolled full-time by NJ standards and since he does have these medical problems which has him on a TEMPORARY time out of school only), you could conceivably ask that your ex be responsible for your attorney's fees. You could increase your chances for those fees as well if you file a counter claim for contempt on him for non-payment of any of the AGREED UPON school fees. Judging by the way NJ leaves the age of emancipation open and considers college quite readily, it appears they lean more towards the child, which may give you a better case in this matter.
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#197507 - 02/22/07 12:45 AM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
jsp Offline
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At some point the child support should stop as your son is no longer a child. If he is not in school full-time and a high school graduate or 19, many courts will not continue child support.

If he is that ill and cannot work, you should apply for SSDI for him.

http://www.ssa.gov/dibplan/index.htm

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#197508 - 02/22/07 12:51 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Gecko Offline
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I could see the whole "senior year stress, top of his class, etc.." thing if he were still in high school, but he's not 18, he's 20, and in what...his second year of college?

So what is giving him own apartment and paying all his bills supposed to accomplish? Why can't he just live with you or Dad and not go to school until next Fall?

If son is not going to school...then Dad has the legal right to ask that his CS obligation being stopped. Then if come Fall...son is able to return to school, the courts could then be petitioned to re-establish support.

Why are you paying interest on his loans? They shouldn't be due and payable until AFTER he graduates.
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#197509 - 02/22/07 12:58 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Miranda Offline
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If he is paying CS for an adult, he IS in fact contributing to his college. Are you sending your son the CS your ex pays?
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#197510 - 02/22/07 01:19 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
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The interest still accrues. You don't HAVE to pay it while in school, but they just rack up if you don't.
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#197511 - 02/22/07 01:20 AM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
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Ok...then it is her CHOICE to pay.
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#197512 - 02/22/07 02:04 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
I'm paying the interest on the loans because we both agreed to help pay for college and the interest just adds up. Out of the child support my ex gives me $550 every 2 weeks I've been giving our son $215 for all his expenses which includes $50/wk for supplements, clothing, living expenses, food, gas, etc. Our son has been in college full-time since Sept 05, it's only recent he had to drop out winter semester and spring and stay under dr's care till fall when he plans to return. His therapist wants him to get his own place and start dealing with his issues. Char thank you for your valuable information. My ex likes to use the "I talked to my lawyer" when I know he probably didn't, so I have some good points to bring up.

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#197513 - 02/22/07 02:27 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Gecko Offline
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Out of the child support my ex gives me $550 every 2 weeks I've been giving our son $215 for all his expenses which includes $50/wk for supplements, clothing, living expenses, food, gas, etc.

---> So if you're giving son $215 to pay for all of his own living expenses...where is the other $335 going towards?

Our son has been in college full-time since Sept 05....

---> So again...if he's a sophmore in college, why is he still dealing with "senior year stress, top of his class, etc.." TWO YEARS later?

it's only recent he had to drop out winter semester and spring and stay under dr's care till fall when he plans to return.

---> I'm sorry, but again...he has still dropped out and legally, Dad has every right to stop child support. If and when son returns to school...so long as it's before the state's cut off date...which in many is 21...he can petition to have the support start up again.

His therapist wants him to get his own place and start dealing with his issues.

---> Again...how is getting his own place going to help him deal with his "issues"?
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#197514 - 02/22/07 02:49 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
jrl1951 Offline
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Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
Gecko, you don't get it. The rest of the money goes to our daughter. Next, the son has had the problem for 2 years and has been hospitalized 3 times now. Once the summer after high school, then 2 months later, and now this past Dec. The problem was he never dealt with the stress except to restrict and exercise till he almost dropped dead in college. It's the dealiest of all mental disorders. Now he's getting out of inpatient/outpatient since 12/14. He dropped out medically from college and plans to return in the fall. The college has him as full time but not registered for classes on a medical leave. He is barely able to hold a job right now and will be required to see the doctor 3 times a week plus a nutritionist, and medical dr weekly, he has anorexia which almost killed him due to the anxiety from his father's alcoholism, high school, the divorce, money issues he heard about all the time from his parents. Now his therapist wants him to figure things out instead of looking to mom to help, since dad is incoherant most of the time.
My problem is this, I don't believe the ex will support our son. He has not contributed to college, it took him over a year to get the life insurance policies required by the court incase he kills himself soon from the liquor and smoking relentlessly. Oh yes, his brother died at 50 from alcoholism.
I agree that he should not pay me the child support if the son is not living with me, but I don't trust him to live up to his word that he will give our son the full support he needs until he gets back on his feet.

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#197515 - 02/22/07 03:04 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Miranda Offline
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I think your ex has a valid argument about CS. You son is an adult of age 20 who is not going to college. So contingent on those areas why should he be paying for him? What does your state say about emancipation?
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#197516 - 02/22/07 03:37 AM Re: child support [Re: Miranda]
almostheaven Offline
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Her ex will have a problem here though, because they can show that it is ONLY a temporary medical leave AND show that the issues are due to problems with the divorce and his father. The court is likely going to have dad continue...at least reserve the issue til fall to see if son actually does go back to class full time. And it will hurt dad being that he AGREED to help with his college and hasn't put one dime towards it. Especially if that agreement is in writing.
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Char Fox

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#197517 - 02/22/07 03:44 AM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
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AND show that the issues are due to problems with the divorce and his father.

---> Hold on a sec...from what the mom is saying, the kid has issues that extend beyond his father's alcoholism. There was his senior year, being top of his class...he has an eating disorder, overhearing BOTH of his parents discussing the financial aspects of their divorce.
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#197518 - 02/22/07 04:00 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
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Loc: West Virginia
That's why I said "divorce" AND his father. It seems there are a lot of issues, but much of it is stemming from the divorce...IOW something out of his control, something the parents brought on. So the judge may lean more towards holding the parents to care for him a bit longer while he gets through this temporary setback.
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Char Fox

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#197519 - 02/22/07 04:18 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Gecko Offline
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Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
Gecko, you don't get it.

---> I can't "get" what you don't give me. I'm sorry...I forgot that ya'll had two kids...that's all you had to say, you need to jump my ass.

---> Now I did some research into Title 9 of the NJ Statutes Annointed which covers Domestic relations.

---> NJ does not have a real "age of emancipation"...it can end after the child turns 18 AND graduates from high school or it can end when the "child" completes a Undergraduate Degree program. This is not to say that the "child" can take 10 years to get their BS by taking 1 class every term. They are expect to complete it is four years AND with passing grades.

---> In addition to the child getting married, entering into the service, child support can be terminated "upon the failure to commence the next segment of his education, or upon leaving school". Technically, your child has left school and Dad is within his rights to ask that the child be declared emancipated.

---> HOWEVER, the law does provide for the continuation of support if the "failure to continue on with his education has resulted from injury or illness or some other cause beyond the child's control". The problem where is that you're going to have a REAL tough time convincing a Judge that the "cure" is for son to have his own apartment for six months. Your son doesn't have any coping skills and he's NOT going to get them sitting in an apartment by himself being totally supported my Mommy and Daddy. He'd be better off in some time of rehab center...a controlled environment...with structure...that will teach him...give him the tools he needs. And yeah...I have some experience with this.
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If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#197520 - 02/22/07 04:58 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
googledad Offline
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Registered: 12/31/05
Posts: 10213
[quote]

---> Now I did some research into Title 9 of the NJ Statutes Annointed which covers Domestic relations.
[/quote]

:shocked:

Am I a bad influence ?

Lovers in Liberty Corner, New Jersey, should avoid satisfying their lustful urges in a parked car. If the horn accidentally sounds while they are frolicking behind the wheel, the couple can face a jail term.

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#197521 - 02/22/07 05:06 AM Re: child support [Re: googledad]
Gecko Offline
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Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
Am I a bad influence ?

---> Hardly.
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#197522 - 02/22/07 11:43 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
Buckeye Offline
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Registered: 12/08/05
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Well, isn't this just wonderful. Adult (child) wants parents to pay for college, it's the parents fault that adult (child) is having problems coping with their divorce, adult (child) is not going to college and mom expects adult (child) to be set up with room and board in his own apartment.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

Maybe this "child" needs to take some responsibility for his own life and his own actions and learn some coping abilities.

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#197523 - 02/22/07 12:46 PM Re: child support [Re: Buckeye]
Redlegg Offline
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it sounds to me like the smoke and mirrors deal, the school is claiming a full time status, but on medical leave. How much is the "child" paying the school to remain on a full time status. How much a year does it cost to not go to college these days. I feel bad about his problems, but how much do you plan on giving the "child". I would assume he is getting the same from both parents (215) and there is no way he can afford to live on his own. I would maybe question the therapist at this point, I mean mentally he may need to have his own place, but physically it sounds almost dangerous. After all my useless mental wandering and typing, If I were the Dad, I would say if he is not paying the college, I am not paying, and I would go to court and have it stopped (at least try). I would also tell son, man, child that when he goes back to college, I would help him out. The crazy part to me is that the child has basically a prescription for his own apartment, but no real way to pay for it, I would definitely check into disability.

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#197524 - 02/22/07 12:58 PM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
M5M5 Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
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How was he not helping out with College when he was paying CS for him?!?!?!

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#197525 - 02/22/07 02:01 PM Re: child support [Re: M5M5]
almostheaven Offline
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Because he is "court ordered" on the CS AND had an agreement to ALSO help with the college costs.
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Char Fox

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#197526 - 02/22/07 03:54 PM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
Avaya Offline
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Registered: 02/09/06
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Loc: Arkansas
[quote]
Why are you paying interest on his loans? They shouldn't be due and payable until AFTER he graduates. [/quote]

Exactly. If they're payable now, then the college does NOT consider him enrolled as a full time student.
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#197527 - 02/22/07 03:56 PM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
Avaya Offline
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[quote]The interest still accrues. You don't HAVE to pay it while in school, but they just rack up if you don't. [/quote]

Subsidized student loans do not accrue interest while in college. Interest only begins accruing 6 months after they are no longer a full time student.
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#197528 - 02/22/07 05:22 PM Re: child support [Re: Buckeye]
Gecko Offline
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And I thought I was harsh at times.

The guy has anorexia...I'm not sure if it's classified as a mental or physical disorder, but I'm pretty sure he's not "responsible" for it. Sometimes shyt happens and it's no one's "fault" and so you do the best you can.
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#197529 - 02/22/07 05:48 PM Re: child support [Re: Avaya]
almostheaven Offline
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??

I've had 3. They all did.
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#197530 - 02/22/07 05:49 PM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
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Anorexia is a mental disorder. It can be fatal though.
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Char Fox

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#197531 - 02/22/07 06:18 PM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
Avaya Offline
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Loc: Arkansas
Then they must not have been 'subsidized' loans. Those ar the most common, but there are other types that do begin accruing interest at inception.
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#197532 - 02/22/07 06:49 PM Re: child support [Re: almostheaven]
Miranda Offline
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Who says his LOA is temporary? If he is so traumatized you cannot speculate as to his furture actions.
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13.1...because I am only half crazy!

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#197533 - 02/22/07 11:21 PM Re: child support [Re: Avaya]
almostheaven Offline
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Dunno, they were just student loans through the colleges. Actually, I believe one went through a bank but it was over 20 years ago, so not really sure anymore.
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Char Fox

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#197534 - 02/22/07 11:21 PM Re: child support [Re: Miranda]
almostheaven Offline
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From the OP, it appears the therapists and school agree it's temp.
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#197535 - 02/23/07 12:58 AM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
Buckeye Offline
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I could understand it IF mom said she was bring him home to take care of him BUT no, she wants him in an apartment by himself.

He needs to be with people who can "monitor" his eating.

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#197536 - 02/23/07 03:15 AM Re: child support [Re: Buckeye]
Gecko Offline
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That's why I suggested a rehab center. I can't see a Judge forcing parents to pay for an apartment for their adult child so he can get his shyt together. He needs coping skills, he needs structure, he needs monitoring...he's not going to get that sitting in a recliner shutting out the rest of the world.
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#197537 - 02/23/07 08:45 PM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
Thanks all. I've been working and couldn't get back here. I decided to pay the interest on the loans along with my son who has been helping since it accrues and we get a bill for it. He has worked the past 2 summers inspite of all this. I would rather keep the interest to zero if possible. This is a fatal disease and the most fatal of all psychiatric disorders. Our son has been in rehab for 2 months and is coming home today as I speak. He has depended on Mom a lot, too much the last 2 years. One reason is because the severe anxiety he has had and the lack of parental involvement with the other parent. He did not buy into theray the first 2 times. The third time almost finsihed him. I remember watching his heart rate dip to below 20 during the first night in the hospital and wondering what was going to happen. His father never showed till the next morning after he went in to work first. Our son stayed in acute care for a week then transferred to a new facility 2 hrs from home. He stayed inpatient for 4 weeks then outpatient for another 6. The child support is court ordered and contributing to college is court ordered. The ex told our son he would give him $2000 in November and that never happened. I guess I am fearful the ex will not give the monney I have been giving to our son out of child support to our son. His track record stinks. I offered to give our son that portion of child support in a check to prove he's getting it rather than cash like I usually do. The therapists want our son to get out on his own and start dealing with this on his own with out the added stresses at home. He will be monitored by 3 visits a week to the psychologist, 1 to the psychiatrist, 1 to a medical doctor , and 1 to a nutritionist. With all those appts he won't be able to hold down a full time job for a while until he is stable at home. He is planning to return to school in the fall. Yes, college is giving him a medical and he is still enrolled but without any classes now. My questions are, do I agree to let him stop giving me the child support money for our son, how do I figure that amount out since there are 2 kids, can he just stop giving me the money without going back to court? we obviously have to contribute to his support for apartment rent, food, etc until further time, and he makes more than me. I realy don't want to pay a lawyer, it cost me $35k for the divorce.

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#197538 - 02/23/07 09:23 PM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
My questions are, do I agree to let him stop giving me the child support money for our son, how do I figure that amount out since there are 2 kids, can he just stop giving me the money without going back to court? we obviously have to contribute to his support for apartment rent, food, etc until further time, and he makes more than me. I realy don't want to pay a lawyer, it cost me $35k for the divorce.

---> NEITHER of you can make private arrangements regarding child support...it HAS to go through the courts.

---> Since the reason is medical...chances are that CS will continue through the summer since he is supposed to be going back to school in the Fall and the courts can order that son's portion be paid directly to him. If he is unable to continue...then the support should stop period.

---> I honestly do NOT see a Judge ordering EITHER of you (since son would not be living at "home", the Judge would order you to also pay child support) to fully support your adult "child" OUTSIDE of the home...it's just plain ludercious!
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#197539 - 02/23/07 09:42 PM Re: child support [Re: Gecko]
Avaya Offline
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Registered: 02/09/06
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Loc: Arkansas
Of course they can privately agree on the Cs and it does NOT have to go through the courts. For them both to be protected, it probably should go through them, but it certainly doesn't have to.

OP, this is not a mental issue if his blood pressure is dropping like that. And mental issues are not 'fatal diseases'. And finally, there are Thousands of people living with physical or mental impairments whose parents do NOT financially support them. If you are taking this on, then you need to get with social services and find out what they will provide for your son. His father may or may not contribute, but that is not up to you to decide or demand.
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#197540 - 02/23/07 11:17 PM Re: child support [Re: Avaya]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
Thank you. It wasn't his blood pressure that 20 is was his heart rate. Yes, anorexia is a disease, it is not a choice. The other thing is that once he finds part time work he will indeed contribute and he will back off more. I just want the child support for him to continue and I give it to our son. I'm not sure how to figure it though. I don't think you just cut it in half. The other child, a girl, is 17. Right now I get $550 every 2 weeks for child support. I've been giving our son around $215 every 2 weeks to cover all his needs for college like food, meals out, supplements, gas, clothes, supplies. I also pay the $500 deductible every year for medical, all medical above that not covered for glasses/contacts etc. Some of child support is figured for living expenses other than those I listed right? Like to cover other costs in the home?

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#197541 - 02/23/07 11:20 PM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Sherron Offline
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"Like to cover other costs in the home? "

If you mean other costs in the home associated with the children who are residing at that home and for who cs is being paid - yes. If you mean pedicures or Bingo night for yourself - no.

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#197542 - 02/23/07 11:24 PM Re: child support [Re: Sherron]
Sherron Offline
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Registered: 11/25/06
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"Yes, anorexia is a disease, it is not a choice. "

Okay, i am really not trying to be insensitive, but from what I understand about anorexia... people who feel completely out of control will use their control over food as an outlet, so how is that not a choice? I understand that eventually their body can get to the point that it can't handle any nourishment, but it would still start out as a choice, wouldn't it?

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#197543 - 02/24/07 12:46 AM Re: child support [Re: Sherron]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
nope, the anorexia can actually result from several things. It is definitely not a choice. In fact they have determined it is biologically based. What is an Eating Disorder?

Eating disorders such as anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating disorder include extreme emotions, attitudes, and behaviors surrounding weight and food issues.
They are serious emotional and physical problems that can have life-threatening consequences for females and males.
ANOREXIA NERVOSA is characterized by self-starvation and excessive weight loss.
Symptoms include:
Refusal to maintain body weight at or above a minimally normal weight for height, body type, age, and activity level
Intense fear of weight gain or being “fat”
Feeling “fat” or overweight despite dramatic weight loss
Loss of menstrual periods
Extreme concern with body weight and shape


When these kids/adults have this and are extremely low body weight it affects the whole thought process. So one of the first things they try to do is get the weight up. Then the disease starts lifting, so to speak. My son was switched to a new medication in the fall, while in college, by a new psychiatrist and I feel it made everything worse and caused a rapid downward spiral while going off one graduallly and going on another medication.

Surprisingly there are a growing number of males with this disease too. Athletes like runners, wrestlers, etc are very prone to it. My son told me of a boy a few years younger than him who is there who has OCD so bad the child can't stop exercising while inpatient.

My son has told me that his one way to cope with all the stress was to exercise and restrict. I hope he has learned new coping mechanisms and will continue to do so.

Anyway, thank you all for listening and some of your comments I will take to heart.

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#197544 - 02/24/07 01:11 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
Gecko Offline
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Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
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NOT to be argumentative...but your explaination did include "refusal to..." and as such, "refusing" IS a choice.
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#197545 - 02/24/07 04:31 AM Re: child support [Re: jrl1951]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
>>>>>do I agree to let him stop giving me the child support money for our son

No. He still owes it per court order. And until the court says otherwise, he will continue to owe it regardless of what you agree to.

>>>>>how do I figure that amount out since there are 2 kids

You don't. The court does, using the guidelines.

>>>>can he just stop giving me the money without going back to court?

He can stop anytime. He can also have his wages garnished, lose his license, go to jail, have his taxes taken, any number of things. Stopping paying doesn't equate to not owing.

My question is...knowing he has NOT followed the CO in contributing to college, WHY would you AGREE to let him stop CS and VOLUNTEER to pay your son directly. I can guarantee you that your son would never get one red cent from him if you did.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197546 - 02/24/07 04:33 AM Anorexia is a mental disorder... [Re: Avaya]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Anorexic patients starve themselves to the point that their liver, kidney, etc. shuts down. They become skeletons. In their HEAD, they still see themselves as huge, even if their bones are protruding. Their bodily functions stop working one by one until they die. But it's ALL in the head. It's the mental disorder causing them to starve themselves that causes the physical complications. It's a very difficult disease to beat and requires a lot of therapy. They never really GET OVER it either. They can always slip back into anorexia if they don't monitor it constantly.
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Char Fox

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#197547 - 02/24/07 04:35 AM It is as much a choice as... [Re: Sherron]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Being schitzophrenic or psychotic or narcissistic, etc. etc.
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Char Fox

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#197548 - 02/24/07 01:17 PM Re: It is as much a choice as... [Re: almostheaven]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
Thank you "Almost Heaven" and what you say makes total sense. If anyone is interested in reading more about this to enlighten yourselves you can go to the National Eating Disorders Association website

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#197549 - 02/24/07 04:53 PM Re: It is as much a choice as... [Re: jrl1951]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
I make a committment to lose weight back in 2002 and have spent a lot of time researching healthy eating. I post on weight loss boards and so have read quite a bit about many EDs. There was also a recent segment on some show I caught of a girl with anorexia. She was almost to the brink of death too. They pulled her back, but she was STILL anorexic. It was only with a lot of support that she was keeping alive and eating.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197550 - 02/24/07 05:39 PM Re: It is as much a choice as... [Re: almostheaven]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
Thanks Char, my son was shutting down too. He has had reversal of most of the problems with his liver, kidneys, etc. He still has some bone loss in his hip and we don't yet how bad that is or if it will repair itself. I know you can beat the illness but it takes a lot of work and time.
Judy-New Jersey

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#197551 - 02/24/07 06:35 PM Re: It is as much a choice as... [Re: almostheaven]
Miranda Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20822
Loc: North of Mexico
[quote]Being schitzophrenic or psychotic or narcissistic, etc. etc. [/quote]

I am unsure if I'd agree with that. As an anorexic you make a choice NOT to eat. It starts somewhere at some point you decide to starve yourself. Now the root of the anorexia could be stress or depression, or body dysmorphic disease, but there is no conscious effort to become a schizophrenic-that is a brain malfunction. Anorexia starts with some sort of an obsession. An obsession about food, and obession about weight, and obsession about control, etc.

Anorexics can seek counseling and treatment and can live normals lives being "cured" similar to alcoholics or drug addicts. Schizophrenics do not have that option and cannot funcion in a "societal norm" without heavy doses of medication.
_________________________
13.1...because I am only half crazy!

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#197552 - 02/25/07 12:15 AM Not precisely... [Re: Miranda]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
You DO make a choice; however, it's because MENTALLY you keep seeing yourself as huge, fat, obese. You can be 5' 10" and weight 100 pounds and look in the mirror and see a 300 pound slob. You'll see fat rolls hanging where bone is actually protruding. It's all in the mind. The brain still malfunctions, creating this incorrect body image. The choice to starve is DUE to the brain malfunction. And yes, they can get counseling and treatment and live normal lives, but like alcoholics, they are NOT cured. Once an alcoholic, ALWAYS an alcoholic. They can NEVER take one drink again for fear of slipping back. Anorexia is just like that.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197553 - 02/25/07 01:57 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
Its like drug addicts making a choice to use drugs or an alcoholic making the choice to drink. It is a choice, but people who have these conditions are not capable of making any other choice. You cannot simply eat, or stop taking drugs, or drinking and all is well, you have to deal with mechanisms of the choices being made, or you will make the same choices again.

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#197554 - 02/25/07 02:48 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: Redlegg]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
when you are depleted nutritionally you can't make decisions, the disease has taken control then. I'm not sure the same reasons exist for men as they do for women as the cause. I know my son had severe anxiety/depressin and that triggered it. He is learning new coping skills and has switched to a new medication that seems to be helping a lot. It's fairly new and now that I look back the other medication never was helping. He goes to a psychopharmacologist now for his medication. This doctor is very good. I do think the switching of the medication may have been factor in a very fast downward spiral along with him not seeking help. Right now I can hear him in his room and he is acting like the old son I haven't had for over 2 years.

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#197555 - 02/25/07 02:49 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
I think it's even a bit different than that. An alcoholic isn't an alcoholic UNTIL they start drinking. Same with an addict. But an anorexic patient IS anorexic before they start starving themselves. Their brain sees fat where fat doesn't even exist. They have a distorted body image that starts first. THEN they start starving themselves to get the body where they want. But they can never get it there because in their mind, it's still distorted.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197556 - 02/25/07 06:05 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
Not ALL anorexics have a "distorted body images"...some simply just don't eat because they have no appetite.

This is what a close friend of mine is going through...she went from a size 9 to a size 0...she is now a size 5.

It all started when she moved in with her fiance who had custody of his kids. The oldest two kids were grossly overweight and Dad has some extra pounds himself...so she clearned out the kitchen of sugary cereals, Twinkies and "fried" everything and introduced broiled lean meats, fresh vegetables, salads and fruit. While this new "diet" had the desired effect upon the family...she suddenly found herself with no appetite...no desire to eat.

The doctor wanted to put her on a high calorie "diet", but she knew that if she brought such foods into the house, the kids would start gaining again and she didn't think if "fair" for her to sit in front of them eating something really fattening so what she did was to retrain herself to eat. And then hubby installed a lock on her nightstand and she keeps a "stash" in there.
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#197557 - 02/25/07 08:19 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Did her doctor actually label her as anorexic? I've never heard of a case like that before.
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Char Fox

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#197558 - 02/25/07 08:25 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
Yep. Anorexia can be an "eating" or a "psychological" disorder.
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#197559 - 02/26/07 03:36 AM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
preemiemom Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 19391
I kinda disagree on that AH (sorry!!). Alcoholics are alcoholics whether they drink or not. My father was/is a dry drunk. Whatever imbalance in his brain that makes him an alcoholic is still there.. he just doesn't actively act on it, but the personality things are still there. Now, if he had one beer tomorrow, he'd be buying a fifth of scotch the next night. Either he controls the alcoholic urge entirely or he doesn't.

The same with other addictions I think. Growing up in a highly addictive family (my mother is a recovering gambling addict, 8 years "clean"), and having been through a lot of ACOA, Co-dependent's Anonymous and even having done some GA myself... the addict isn't necessarily about the drug itself.. it's about whatever they get from it. GA folks describe it as "more".. they're chasing "more".. More "what" no one can quite say, it's just "more".

I think you'll also find alot of addicts who get "clean" develop other, albeit "healthy" addictions.. Overeating, overspending, shopping, compulsive collecting of some sort.

It's hard to explain... but I think, in most addicts, there's just a chemical thing in their brain that if given the opportunity/means, they'd become addicted to whatever...

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#197560 - 02/26/07 02:27 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: preemiemom]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
But was he termed a dry drunk BEFORE he ever had even one drink? The chemical reaction may have been there, just like with anorexia I suppose. If there were a way to find it, we could warn the alcoholic to never pick up a drink and expose themselves to it, because they'd become addicted. But to me, the difference is in that the alcoholic doesn't actually become "alcoholic" until they've at least taken one drink. The anorexic is anorexic even before they start starving themselves. They still see themselves fat, even if they're not, before they stop eating.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197561 - 02/26/07 11:34 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
Sherron Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 20729
Okay, so how do you know/diagnose someone as anorexic BEFORE they start starving themselves? Again, I apologize if I come across as argumentative, I AM trying to understand.

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#197562 - 02/26/07 11:50 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: Sherron]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
I don't think they can, anymore than they could the alcoholic, as I said. If they could, they could force feed the anorexic, just as they could withhold any alcoholic beverages from the alcoholic. One though would be a matter of telling someone not to ever take a drink so they don't become alcoholic, the other however would require intervention. Because they're STILL going to stop eating because of what their mind is seeing, unless someone actually force feeds them.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197563 - 02/26/07 11:50 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Actually, now that I think about it, a good therapist might spot the signs of anorexia before one would start starving themselves. I dunno.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#197564 - 02/27/07 06:33 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: almostheaven]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
I don't think you can diagnose someone who might become anorexic prior to. I know my son ate everything in good quantities before hand. I will say that it was a slow progression and I knew something was wrong but couldn't put my finger on it. I enocuraged him to get help and the new family doctor told him that he should get help when it started interfering in his life. So yes there were signs and no one really saw it in black and white. I do agree addicts can develop other tendencies when they get "sober". There are addictions on my ex's side and a cousin on my side had anorexia when she was younger. My father had psychological problems all his life so unfortantely our son got a double whammy. Then again what family is perfect? My ex had brainwashed our kids against any kind of mental therapy. I had asked him on numerous occasins to get professinal help. It wasn't until things were very bad the frist time he finally asked for help.

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#197565 - 02/27/07 06:35 PM Re: Not precisely... [Re: jrl1951]
jrl1951 Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 30
Loc: New Jersey
A footnote here. We started family therapy last night and the ex denied he had a drnking problem. Our daughter stuck up for him too even though she has told me many times she knows there is a problem and is worried about him. I hope when the 3 of them get into their own sessins they can work on some of these isssues proviid he will.

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