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#199378 - 02/26/07 06:31 PM What is CS supposed to cover?
hibiscush Offline
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Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 7
My first post. I'm not divorced quite yet, so I'm not too clear on something about temp. C.S. payments received and what it should pay for. My ex thinks it should pay for 100% of the needs of the kids, and he shouldn't have any further obligation when it comes to extra-curricular sports (fees, uniforms, other expenses), as well birthday parties when they are with him on his weekend, school tutors, and things as such. I'm really not clear on this myself. I pay for all the school supplies, uniforms, parties and field trips, but here's the problem that occurred today. My son made the school baseball team. I've spent over $200 on the uniform, including terf shoes and metal cleats, and practice clothes. As well as my younger son's $100 registration fee for little league this month. Then there popped up a $35 school bb fee at the end of the month that I didn't know about or budget for. I asked the ex to pay it, and he objected telling me that the child support he paid me should cover all of it. I'm down to my last $40 until next month, and then he's always late in making his support payment.
Bottom line is, I'm just not clear as to everything C.S. is supposed to pay for myself. I've spent this entire morning, online, trying to find this answer. I know it's only $35, but I can see where this is leading. Since I'm not yet divorced, I want to try to solve problems before the ink is dry.

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#199379 - 02/26/07 06:37 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
Susanf31 Offline
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Each state is different. In some states, extra-curriculiar activites are included in the CS. In other states, extra-curricular activies are in ADDITION to child support.

Consult your state guidelines and make sure your ex is paying the proper amount of child support to begin with.

Since your divorce is not final, I would seek his portion of the current extra-curricular activies via your lawyer.

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#199380 - 02/26/07 06:59 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
M5M5 Offline
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Any school fees are normally what CS is used for also, this includes school lunch, fees, yearbook, etc. Birthday parties...CS is used for that...meaning..he doesn't have to pay extra for it. The only thing he really has to pay extra for..on top of CS..is uncovered medical expenses (after insurance has paid). Extra curriculars...some states include that in CS...other's make the NCP pay half of the costs on top of CS. It really depends on your state guidelines...what they say.

Other things CS is used for:

-household bills
-gas
-movies, clothes, shoes, misc.

I hope you have a better idea now.

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#199381 - 02/26/07 07:00 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
Gecko Offline
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It can vary depending on how it is calculated.

In ALL states...you have a "base" amount. In a nutshell, this is the OP's (other parent's) share of housing, clothing, food and basic education (school supplies).

In some states...the cost of medical insurance, daycare, medical** and extraordinary*** expenses are added to the support amount, in other states...this is separate amount.

** - Counseling, special medical needs

*** - Tutors, private school

Extra-curricular activities (clubs, sports, lessons) are generally handled separately. If at the time of the divorce, the child(ren) are already engaged in certain activities/sports the courts will allow for the continuation of said and direct each parents financial contribution.

If the child(ren) are not involved in these, the issue CAN STILL be addressed on a future basis...in fact I highly recommend that some kind of verbage be included because otherwise...the OP is NOT responsible.
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#199382 - 02/26/07 07:14 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Gecko]
hibiscush Offline
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Registered: 02/26/07
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So by "extra-curricular" that means the parents are to share this obligation over and above the monthly c.s.?
BTW, I live in Florida.
And when you speak of the State guidelines, are you talking about the Child Support Guideline form that is used to determine monthly C.S. amounts? If that isn't what you are referring to, can you be more specific so I can look it up?
My attorney told me that when they came up with these guidelines, a % was allocated per child for how much it cost for their share of the water bill, the power bill, etc. But I've done an exhausted search to try to find information about this online, and it's just not available that I can find. My ex thinks the CS $ he pays is going towards grocery's, clothes, and other things the kids need. Not power bill, water, etc. Can't seem to convince him otherwise.

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#199383 - 02/26/07 07:29 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
Gecko Offline
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So by "extra-curricular" that means the parents are to share this obligation over and above the monthly c.s.?

---> Yes...it would be IN addition to the base amount.

And when you speak of the State guidelines, are you talking about the Child Support Guideline form that is used to determine monthly C.S. amounts?

---> Yes.

My attorney told me that when they came up with these guidelines, a % was allocated per child for how much it cost for their share of the water bill, the power bill, etc.

---> Your attorney is correct. What it basicly calculates at is...what is a single person's normal housing (rent, electic, gas, water, sewer/garbage) costs and then what does it cost to add a child. Example...a one-bedroom apartment might cost $500/month, a two-bedroom would cost $600, so $100 is attributed to the child. It's the same way with your utilities...you have your base costs, like say your electric bill is $50, but goes up to $60 with a child...the child's "share" is $10.

---> You will note that utilities like telephone, cable and internet are NOT included; this is because these costs are "fixed" and you would have them regardless.

But I've done an exhausted search to try to find information about this online, and it's just not available that I can find.

---> And you won't find them.

My ex thinks the CS $ he pays is going towards grocery's, clothes, and other things the kids need. Not power bill, water, etc. Can't seem to convince him otherwise.

---> Just have your attorney talk to his attorney and explain the facts of life to him and that if he wants to pay extra for "housing"...then I'm sure the courts will be happy to oblige him.
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#199384 - 02/26/07 08:27 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
M5M5 Offline
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So by "extra-curricular" that means the parents are to share this obligation over and above the monthly c.s.?

-----

Only IF your state guidelines and/or CO specify it. When we had custody of my skids...NCP was not ordered to pay for any part of extra curriculars. We just took it out of the CS she paid.

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#199385 - 02/26/07 09:07 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: M5M5]
Gecko Offline
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M5M5 is correct...I should have qualified my response as I did in my first post to you.

It will be dependent on how your state addresses said issues, so it could be included in CS and it could be separate or it could not be included at all.
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#199386 - 02/26/07 09:41 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Gecko]
Redlegg Offline
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It doesn't mean anyone has to share it at all, sometimes you just can't afford extra curricular activities and that is the way it goes. CS is to insure that the child(ren) have all the things needed to have a decent life, that their basic needs are met. If you use the money for a gas bill, electric bill, food or rent, or gas for the car, it is all things that the children need. Extra is just that extra. If the court order specifies it then so be it, if not, you treat it like you would any exta activitie, if you can, you do, if you ask for help from the ex and they can, you do. The court order lays out obligations, the rest is extra. Hopefully it can worked out and the child(ren) benefit, but not always.

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#199387 - 02/26/07 09:46 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
etindall8 Offline
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just to reiterate what has already been said, it depends on how your state addresses those issues.

In TX, all you get is CS and the insurance premium. There's no extra for child care or extra-curricular stuff unless there's something specific the 2 parents agreed to and written into the decree. So if you decide to sign your child up for something, you pay it. If your ex decides to sign your child up for something, he pays for it.

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#199388 - 02/26/07 09:50 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Redlegg]
Gecko Offline
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It doesn't mean anyone has to share it at all, sometimes you just can't afford extra curricular activities and that is the way it goes.

---> I understand that which why I said what I did.
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#199389 - 02/26/07 09:59 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: etindall8]
hibiscush Offline
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Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 7
Well, that's the thing. I just looked at the Fl. State guidelines and they are very basic. It has a table that gives figures for "basic needs". So I guess it's what is interpreted as "basic needs" that will determine what the State means by child support. Yet, it's not defined. And, again, I am only getting temp. support at this point, so none of this is spelled out. But it's still an issue I'm dealing with with him.
But, according to the State's guideline, it leads me to believe that his baseball fee is not included in c.s. and then would be a shared expense based on salary %'s.
But, what do I know?! It's all very confusing and a source of further conflict that's nothing to look forward to.

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#199390 - 02/26/07 10:02 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
Gecko Offline
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Loc: Third rock from the sun
But, according to the State's guideline, it leads me to believe that his baseball fee is not included in c.s. and then would be a shared expense based on salary %'s.

---> That is true...baseball is NOT a "need"...it is a "want".
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#199391 - 02/26/07 11:02 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Gecko]
Avaya Offline
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Loc: Arkansas
Exactly, and if the OP 'wants' her son to be involved it that sport, she will have to pay for it.

Can you imagine (OP) being the one paying CS and then constantly being asked for more money for things that YOU did not get a say in whether they'd be signed up for? It's unfortunate, but again, it's just one of those things that happen when parents divorce - their kids have to do without certain things sometimes.
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#199392 - 02/26/07 11:06 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Avaya]
hibiscush Offline
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Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 7
[quote]Can you imagine (OP) being the one paying CS and then constantly being asked for more money for things that YOU did not get a say in whether they'd be signed up for?[/quote]
Unfortunate when it's for the kids and will only enhance their youth. As well as it's an interest both parent's fully supported and participated in when the family was intact.

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#199393 - 02/26/07 11:08 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Avaya]
Susanf31 Offline
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Can you imagine (OP) being the one paying CS and then constantly being asked for more money for things that YOU did not get a say in whether they'd be signed up for? It's unfortunate, but again, it's just one of those things that happen when parents divorce - their kids have to do without certain things sometimes.

+++++++++

Hellll yes! It's so unfair that all a NCP has to do is cut a check each month. They should never be asked for 'extras?" Why should extras only fall on CP's shoulders? Why should CP be the only one who has to say "no" to the kids.

Kids don't cost a "set" amount each month. As they grow and get involved in things, costs changed. It's grossely unfair that those extra costs fall soley on CP's shoulders.

God forbid an NCP ever have to do antying but cut a check.

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#199394 - 02/26/07 11:19 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
almostheaven Offline
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http://www.divorcesource.com/FL/ARTICLES/hastings1.html

"Additional longstanding extracurricular activities such as 4-H club justify an increase in the child support award. Stock v. Stock, 693 So.2d 1080 (Fla. 2d DCA 1997). In Stock, the trial court increased the father’s child support in excess of the guideline amount so to maintain the expense of the children’s horse hobby. (Id). The Second District reversed and remanded for further consideration. (Id). The Second District held that on remand, the trial court must consider the parties’ substantial debts and whether the parties can afford the maintenance and expense of the horses. (Id)."

Since it wasn't included in the CS order, you would need to have the order modified to include it. Until modified, he's not responsible for anything other than what the CO says.
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#199395 - 02/26/07 11:21 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Susanf31]
Avaya Offline
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Registered: 02/09/06
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Loc: Arkansas
Susan, many NCP's would LOVE to be more a part of their kids lives so that they ARE more than a stupid check. Writing that check each month is the EASY part. But after 15 years of being NOTHING but a check because the kid is PAS'd you get sick of it.

Mostly the extra's should fall on the CP's shoulders because that is the person signing the kid up for said extra - that is the person encouraging said child to participate in 'this sport or this pageant or this dance troupe' so that the parent can live vicariously through their child. That is the parent who is signing the child up for extras that take up tons of the child's free time so that the other parent loses the ability to plan things with the child. You want all the responsibility, you get to pay for it.
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#199396 - 02/26/07 11:53 PM Why must everyone be so all inclusive?... [Re: Avaya]
almostheaven Offline
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No more so than all CPs being the ones to pick up the extras check, NEITHER are ALL CPs the ONLY ones signing the child up for extras or the ones wanting "all the responsibility". Sometimes the kid was participating prior. Sometimes the NCP signed them up. Sometimes the NCP AGREED to it. Sometimes it's just a standard activity...just ONE...just so the kid can live normally. And sometimes it's a CP signing them up for everything like in M5's case.
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#199397 - 02/27/07 12:56 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
PhoenixRising Offline
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I agree with Redlegg. “Sometimes you just can't afford extra curricular activities.”

My boys have reduced their extra-curriculars to nil. Partially, because of finances and partially to reduce conflict with the stbx.

Children don’t keep detailed memories of all those practices but they do seem remember every fight. It is completely stressful for us as parents; think of what it is like for them. It is extremely dehabilitating

You have to choose your battles. I fought for therapy and health insurance for the boys because I thought those were important. I didn’t fight for their karate lessons, sports, school field trips, etc.

Perhaps when I graduate; I will be able to swing more “want-to’s” for them.

EOW was a big enough adjustment so on my weekends they just enjoy being able to be in their own home with their own friends and toys with a routine they are comfortable with.

If you replace the more expensive extra-curriculars with low-cost activities, for instance we bike a lot (when there isn’t all this snow) or like today (schools were closed, again) we went sledding and built snowmen and snow forts with the whole neighborhood. I couldn’t drag them back inside and it didn’t cost me a dime.

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#199398 - 02/27/07 01:52 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
etindall8 Offline
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Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 342
[quote]Unfortunate when it's for the kids and will only enhance their youth. As well as it's an interest both parent's fully supported and participated in when the family was intact. [/quote]

Like someone else said, baseball is a want, not a need and if 'wants' aren't covered in the CO, then you don't get any money from your ex for it.

If ex does agree to pay for part of this stuff, then don't be surprised if he wants approval rights. So, if he doesn't approve of the activity, he doesn't have to pay his part. Sucks, but there are some CPs who sign their kid up for everything just to bleed the NCPs.

Sucks, but there are some NCPs who simply can't afford extra-curriculars. My SD (who lives with BM) is in 3 different activities and goes on 2-3 vacations a year. She gets new clothes at all the name brand shops and has THE most expensive hobby for little girls (she collects American Girls). Compared to us -- we haven't taken a vacation in about 3 years and my son is 2 and 95% of his wardrobe is hand-me-downs. We make do, but that's it. There's no extra for anyone, including SD.

If DH and BM were still married and they didn't have money, there would be no extras. If they did have money, there would be extras. Same goes for divorced parents. If you can do it, great. If you can't, it's not going to kill the kids.

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#199399 - 02/27/07 02:51 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: etindall8]
hibiscush Offline
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Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 7
For him, money isn't an issue, as some of his inherited stock got bought up this past summer, and he has a couple of million to play with now. Although, suddenly he is unable to earn an income at his job and is crying poor, since the separation (it's been 1 year and 9 months since we separated). He just thinks that since he "pays me all this money in child support every month (he just started a formal temp. support this past November), then he shouldn't have to come up with anything extra." He won't even agree for me to reinroll them in the same school they've gone to for over 7 years now (my oldest). They had a tuition hike and he's not sure he agrees with the amount they raised the tuition, so he's not agreeing to their reinrollement for next year. Judge only made a temp. ruling that he maintains them in their school for this year, at this point. That was back in September. After nearly two years, and 2 mediations, we still aren't divorced. (He's the one that asked for it after 21 years together and 13 years of marriage...three kids). Get this...he left me for an OLDER woman! Ugh! A coworker of his with no children. Said he couldn't handle me, the kids, and the hectic lifestyle anymore. Long story....
Again, our divorce isn't final, so I have time to try to understand what part of the divorce agreement needs to be looked at again. Obviously this is an issue and needs to be looked at before the ink is dry.
Forgive my ignorance, but I've racked my brain to try to figure it out. What does "SD", "BM" and "DH" mean? Can't find any type of FAQ that would explain these terms.

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#199400 - 02/27/07 03:11 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
M5M5 Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
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SD - step daughter
BM - bio mom
DH - dear husband

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#199401 - 02/27/07 11:07 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Gecko]
Runswithscissors Offline
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Registered: 05/30/04
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In addtion?

------------->not necessarily. If your State provides guidelines or it's ordered.

In my state, I am not required to pay "extra activities". by State or by Order, however.. I do. I pay it.. Medical I split 50/50. (sometimes).


Edited by Runswithscissors (02/27/07 11:08 AM)

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#199402 - 02/27/07 11:08 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Gecko]
Runswithscissors Offline
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oopsss.. should of read through! My bad!

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#199403 - 02/27/07 03:07 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
etindall8 Offline
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Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 342
[quote]Get this...he left me for an OLDER woman! Ugh! A coworker of his with no children. Said he couldn't handle me, the kids, and the hectic lifestyle anymore. [/quote]

if this is why he left you then you should automatically assume from this point forward that he is never going to give more than is spelled out in specific orders and probably only after being harrassed by you or lawyers. He's not putting his kids first, so he's certainly not going to open his wallet to you.

It's going to be an uphill battle all the way. I suggest you get as much specifically spelled out as possible because it sounds like he will exploit any loophole possible.

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#199404 - 02/27/07 08:02 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
Gecko Offline
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Registered: 06/02/04
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Get this...he left me for an OLDER woman!

---> So? Us "older" women are pretty hot ya know!!!
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#199405 - 02/27/07 08:03 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Runswithscissors]
Gecko Offline
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Registered: 06/02/04
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Loc: Third rock from the sun
Yes you ARE bad.
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#199406 - 02/27/07 10:17 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: hibiscush]
PeaceTalks Offline
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Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 4
Loc: Los Angeles 90293
It depends on the state. Generally, the monthly support amount covers the child's portion of your rent, car insurance, groceries, day-to-day expenses, haircuts, clothing while the child is with you, entertainment when the child is with you, etc. In California, in addition to the monthly amount, there are also child support "add-on" expenses which are divided by the parents (many do it 50/50 but you can do it according to incomes or whatever you decide). Required add-ons are healthcare costs and work-related childcare and preschool. Most parents [voluntarily] include things like lessons, sports fees, activities, camp--all those little extras that as you get more money you provide these kinds of things for your children.
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#199407 - 02/28/07 01:13 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: PeaceTalks]
Gecko Offline
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"Car Insurance" LOL You HAVE to have CI whether or not you have a child so CS does NOT cover CI.
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#199408 - 02/28/07 04:44 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
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However, you wouldnt' have to have car insurance for a licensed 16 yo driver if you didn't have a 16 yo in your home and an insurance company requiring they be listed on the policy or placing you in a higher risk category because of the teen. Even some homeowners policies increase with teens, because of higher risk.
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#199409 - 02/28/07 12:16 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
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If a 16 year old wants to drive, he can pay for his own seperate insurance policy. I will not put him on mine for the exact reason you say, the risk is unacceptable. As for the home owners insurance, you never hear about it going down when the kids leave the house, I would have a serious talk with another agent if kids in the house are making my homeowners more expensive. A childs share of the rent, how exactly do you figure a childs share of the rent, his income potential, how do you do it when you are married, what is the child responsible for when it comes to paying rent. You have to have a place to live regardles of whether you have a child or not. I know alot of times it helps pay the rent, or it frees up some money in one place and allows a different need to be met, or even maybe an extra, but the childs portion of the rent just sounds crazy.

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#199410 - 02/28/07 06:48 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Redlegg]
NancyD Offline
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Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 2117
Loc: New York
Child's portion of the rent is NOT crazy if there is not 50/50 parenting, and not that hard to figure.

As a single person, I could, and did, live in a studio apartment. However as a single parent, I could not live in an area that small. I would need at least a one-bedroom, and practically speaking, a two-bedroom place. The price of studio apartments in my area are @$900 (for a dingey finished basement). The price of one-bedroom apts are @1500+, and two bedroom apts are $1900+. So there is easily a $600 difference per month in what I would have to pay for living space for my child. I would expect 1/2 of that to be covered by CS from my ex.

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#199411 - 02/28/07 07:58 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
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Loc: West Virginia
With some companies, it doesn't matter if the teen WANTS to drive or not. Just that they are a licensed driver.
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#199412 - 02/28/07 08:01 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
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>>>>>A childs share of the rent, how exactly do you figure a childs share of the rent, his income potential, how do you do it when you are married, what is the child responsible for when it comes to paying rent. You have to have a place to live regardles of whether you have a child or not. I know alot of times it helps pay the rent, or it frees up some money in one place and allows a different need to be met, or even maybe an extra, but the childs portion of the rent just sounds crazy.<<<<<

It does? Well when I was married, my ex and I rented a ONE bedroom duplex. When my daughter was 2, I was legally REQUIRED to put her in her own room. She couldn't share a room with me. Doing so made my rent increase $50. A one BR was $50 cheaper. In some instances, a two BR increases by $100 and sometimes even more, depending on the COL in the area.

Same thing with owning. If you buy a house BASED on having children...you choose an area with safer living conditions, better schools, and a house with more bedrooms and yard, and that ends up costing you more than it would if you were childless and had none of those considerations, the child(ren) has cost you more.
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#199413 - 02/28/07 08:10 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: almostheaven]
Avaya Offline
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Loc: Arkansas
Folks, CS is supposed to pay for the CUSTODIAL parent's so-called increase in rent, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER PARENT? The other parent, even if they have EOWE visitation STILL has to provide living space for that child. They get to PAY for BM to put a roof over the kid's head (with NO say in the appropriateness of said roof!) AND PAY for a roof at their own house. Deliberately allocating CS to living expenses is just plain silly IMO. CP doesn't pay extra for a place to live because they are caring for DAD'S child, they're paying extra because THEY have a child. You act like the NCP has to pay for the extra and the CP pays nothing toward the increase!
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#199414 - 02/28/07 08:24 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Avaya]
NancyD Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 2117
Loc: New York
No they don't have to provide the same space if the child is there for a fraction of the time. And in the case of my ex, it's a very small fraction. So he has the kids sleep in the couch or floor. He doesn't provide any storage space for them for clothing, nick-nacks. He could move to another area and have more space, but he has reasons why he is living where he is and they don't involve the children.

And they don't have to live in a high-tax school district since the child is going to school where the CP resides.

My ex's car insurance won't go up when/if our chldren get their driver's license, only mine because it is my address that will be on their driver's license and my car they will be driving, not his.

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#199415 - 02/28/07 08:30 PM Sometimes they don't... [Re: Avaya]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Should I make the claim that you act like they ALWAYS have to pay? I've never made any claim that NCPs never have that same increase. But most of the CPs here don't deal with that. My NCP has NEVER had to provide a room for his daughter because?...her never wanted to see her. And some here have exes that don't provide rooms and just have their kids sleep on the couch or floor. If they provide the room, I'm sure the CS could be put to use on other things. But if you have increased costs for the child THAT is what the NCP's CS is supposed to cover part of. And who knows, THEIR portion of extra room and board MAY have been calculated into the guidelines. We don't know what all was considered in setting the figures.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199416 - 02/28/07 11:19 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
What conditions exist as far as numbers of children after the divorce that didn't before the divorce, you would have been legally required to provide that room regardless. Whether or not the NCP chooses to see their children is not the issue, because CPs can be just as cruel and they can beat their kids. You can what if this to death, but the truth of the matter is that the same number of children existed before the divorce as they did after, and you are legally required to spend more money on your children to provide them rooms whether your divorced or not(where ever that law exists). Of course children cost more than not having children, but how does that change after divorce. If you buy a house when your planning a child, and oops you have twins, do you have to go buy a new house in two years or do they take a child away or give you tickets you can't pay anyways, because if you could you would get a bigger apt. I mean come on, next you will be having realtors poking holes in condoms just to drum up business. You can only afford what you can afford. Children cost the same if you are married or if you are divorced, you don't figure a childs "share" of the rent when your married, you know they cost more. Once your divorced, you have to figure out who is going to pay that cost. You don't just jump from being a single person to being a single parent, you had to have been a parent before, what if the NCP kept the marital house, and there was an extra bedroom, is that figured into the CS, is the NCP paying too much becuase there is a third bedroom and should they pay for this excess. I understand a two bedroom apt/house costs more than a one bedroom, but CS is for the child(ren) and their living conditions should not change too much, but what if you have two girls they can share a room and CS should not be higher? They eat more, need more clothes. I just don't think you can pinpoint a childs share of the rent, do the guidelines take into account sex, I mean a daughter probably uses more clothes than a son and could even eat less. There are so many variables, it is impossible to figure all scenarios.

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#199417 - 02/28/07 11:39 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
And who knows, THEIR portion of extra room and board MAY have been calculated into the guidelines.

---> Actually not. Child support guidelines are "based on expenditures for children in intact households". In other words...they only consider the cost in ONE home, NOT two. Now while the courts HAVE acknowledge that through the excerise of Parenting Time, "a portion of the costs
for children normally expended by the custodial parent shifts to the non-custodial parent" and said "costs" are very limited. Example...NCP has kids 30% of the time, their adjustment is NOT 30%...it's 16.1%; 35% of the time, it's 19.5%; 40% of the time, it's 30.7%.

---> I have three kids, CS is $574; let's say I get them 30% of the time...I would get a "credit" of $92. Even eating at home...I'm looking at $20 a day to feed three kids three meals x 10 days a month...that's $200 JUST for food. You do the math.

---> Unless the parents have 50/50 (or 55/45), the courts do NOT consider "room" in the OP's house.

NOTE: The above comes from the Superior Court of Arizona and is for 2007.

We don't know what all was considered in setting the figures.

---> I do.
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#199418 - 03/01/07 12:55 AM You don't get it... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Because you've never had to live it. So it's like apples talking to oranges and not worth expending any further energy on. Besides, I have the feeling you DO get it and just want to act like you don't. So that's more of why I'm just gonna let you rant on.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199419 - 03/01/07 12:58 AM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
And they don't allow any decrease because of two households? You know that for a fact?

>>>>>their adjustment is NOT 30%...it's 16.1%;

Yup. So the CP isn't picking up 15% and the NCP 15% by giving the NCP the full 30%. And if the NCP earns more, that would make sense. If they don't, it wouldn't. But guidelines are guidelines for a reason. Because we can't nit pick every case to an exact science. Judges do have SOME leeway if there is a real glaring difference though.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199420 - 03/01/07 03:51 AM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
And they don't allow any decrease because of two households? You know that for a fact?

---> No and yes...one of the advantages on working in Family Law and being friends with someone who served on the committe.
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#199421 - 03/01/07 12:20 PM Re: You don't get it... [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
Really thats why your going to let me "rant on". Well thank you. As far as apples and oranges, I am a CP and I pay CS, so which part do I get, except the CS. I don't have a problem paying it because I know when he goes to visit, I want him to be in a decent place, and I think its the right thing to do. But I never once heard of the "you have a boy and a girl so you need more than if you had two boys or two girls argument". Is saying you are going to let me rant the technical term for "whatever"?

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#199422 - 03/01/07 12:23 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
Well then, maybe people shouldn't use some of those companies that put you in a higher risk category just for having a licensed 16 year old in the house.

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#199423 - 03/01/07 05:29 PM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
With some companies, it doesn't matter if the teen WANTS to drive or not. Just that they are a licensed driver.

---> Yeah...SO's insurance company tried that SCAM when I moved in with him and I told him to tell them "no" and if they threatened to cancel his insurance because of it, that I would personally pay for his lawyer and start a class action lawsuit for extortion.
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#199424 - 03/02/07 01:20 AM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Gecko]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
What I was meaning was, when they did the calculations, did they take the total costs from the intact family and divide it according to income, or did they take the total cost, decrease a bit for the reduced SOL due to two homes, and then divide it by income? And...did they not do it like that in ANY state? Because not all states are the same guidelines.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199425 - 03/02/07 01:25 AM Re: You don't get it... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
It's the technical term for I have the flu and have no time for your B.S. So now I understand you, you PAY CS. Very enlightening.

>>>>>What conditions exist as far as numbers of children after the divorce that didn't before the divorce, you would have been legally required to provide that room regardless. Whether or not the NCP chooses to see their children is not the issue, because CPs can be just as cruel and they can beat their kids. You can what if this to death, but the truth of the matter is that the same number of children existed before the divorce as they did after, and you are legally required to spend more money on your children to provide them rooms whether your divorced or not(where ever that law exists).

And your argument is that ONLY the CP should be the one to spend more. Ahhhh, seeing the light even more.

>>>>>I understand a two bedroom apt/house costs more than a one bedroom, but CS is for the child(ren) and their living conditions should not change too much, but what if you have two girls they can share a room and CS should not be higher? They eat more, need more clothes. I just don't think you can pinpoint a childs share of the rent, do the guidelines take into account sex, I mean a daughter probably uses more clothes than a son and could even eat less. There are so many variables, it is impossible to figure all scenarios.

Again, apples and oranges. It APPEARS (and I may be wrong here since finding you owe CS so that you may be arguing for a reduction in CS for all NCPs) that you don't think CS should INCREASE because of these issues. And yet NO ONE here argued for increasing CS because of housing. Someone just wanted to know what the CURRENT CS covers. And housing and food, utilities, clothing, etc. etc. are what it covers. If the appearances are deceiving, maybe you just want NCPs to not have to pay for ANY of that, not have it figured into the current guidelines, change the guidelines and do away with it all, so that the NCP can pay a pittance and the CP foot the bigger bill....because "you would have been legally required to provide that room regardless".
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199426 - 03/02/07 01:28 AM Re: What is CS supposed to cover? [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
And maybe the NCP can pay the upfront huge premium to enable you to switch companies to a new one after you've been with that same one for many years. Perhaps pay the excess for the larger monthly premiums too...since they want the change to be made to save a buck.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199427 - 03/02/07 07:32 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
when they did the calculations, did they take the total costs from the intact family and divide it according to income, or did they take the total cost, decrease a bit for the reduced SOL due to two homes, and then divide it by income?

---> They use the "intact family" stardard which is a false standard simply because you cannot support two households at the same SOL with the same income that once supported one. And there is some recognition of that fact...which is why the SOL ONLY applies to one household instead of two and why FRGs come up with the term "hidden alimony".


And...did they not do it like that in ANY state? Because not all states are the same guidelines.

---> Tha actual caculations that are used to determine the two models are the same regardless of which state you live in...the difference lies in the "median" figures used.
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#199428 - 03/03/07 06:11 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Gecko]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
The legally provided room requirement existed before the divorce. You jumped on the fact that I pay CS, but you seemed to miss the fact that I am also the CP. What part are you not getting. Are you missing the fact that I don't get CS, that I pay CS or that My son lives with me. I know exactly how much it costs to raise a teenage boy, I pay all the insurance (medical/dental/homeowners etc) all the extras, every cent that it costs comes from me. I have no problem with that because he is my son. As far as any anger I have for "owing" CS, your wrong, in fact I am at least a month ahead of schedule, every month, and that is 500 for one child. Have you ever paid Child support, or are you on the other side. As of right now she owes me over 400 for just loans, I don't ask for it, if I get it, great, if I don't drive on. Here is the way I see it. She is his mom, I do not go for a modification for the simple fact that while he is in either house, I will not cause an uproar which will affect him more than it would me. I have bought presents for birthdays and Christmas and put her name on it just to not disappoint him. You have not ever once seen me complain about paying CS. You said the law required the extra room, and I will ask you now, what happens if you can't provide the room ? Is that like the perjury where no one cares unless your famous or a clinton. Your enlightenment may be premature, the amount I agreed on is actually more than what the court would have required, and I am also a CP that does not receive child support.

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#199429 - 03/03/07 06:13 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Redlegg]
Gecko Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 20602
Loc: Third rock from the sun
Can I correctly assume that this is not directed at me since I am discussing this issue with AH?
_________________________
If you air your dirty linen in public, expect people to comment on the skid marks!

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#199430 - 03/03/07 06:27 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Hon, I once paid CS...willingly. I didn't need to be court ordered to do it. And until you can show me why you're arguing against CS being used to help with the costs of a child INCLUDING extra for housing for them you would NOT have needed without a child, extra for their food, etc., I will continue thinking you're just another CS payor who wants to find a way to either reduce or get out of your CS entirely. Because as of yet, I've NEVER heard a good reason why a child's expenses (ALL their expenses) should not be footed by BOTH parents. But you just keep saying the CS shouldn't help with their room, because they'd have had to provide this while married. Well Duh! Yeah, BOTH would've while married. Why should it differ after? I can guarantee you that you won't provide an answer to that that will sway my thoughts on it.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199431 - 03/03/07 06:46 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
Sugar, you mean you have a divorce decree that doesn't address child support. Well thats a technique. I don't need to sway you at all, the apples and oranges you talk about are the fact that I don't think of housing as [b]extra[/b] as you keep saying it is. When we got divorced, CS was in the decree, using the state's formula it would have been one number, I said make it this, which was more. I don't see myself as paying anything extra since housing is a need, and the same need that existed before the divorce, since housing is extra, food would be extra, clothes would be extra, all the things you need to raise a child are not extra. As far as me wanting a modification, do you really think that if I went to court to have it modified, and my son lives with me, that I would not get it?? She would end up paying me CS. Actually, to help her out even more, I let her claim the exemption when its tax time. I am not trying to change your mind. I have no idea what your used to in dealing with an ex, but I am not trying to destroy mine, I just want to make sure she has a better than fair chance to make a life for herself. And I hope I answered your questions, and I did not even call BS or accuse you of ranting. We do disagree, but at the end of the day, its the children who count and I am sure we agree on that.

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#199432 - 03/03/07 06:49 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Gecko]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
You are dead on, sorry for the misdirect.

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#199433 - 03/03/07 07:38 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Hon, no that's not what I meant or said and how you concluded it is beyond me. That you don't think of housing as extra is YOUR problem. It IS extra. WITHOUT A CHILD, there would be NO ADDITIONAL housing costs. WITH A CHILD, there IS. Therefore, that it IS an extra IS a fact. WITHOUT A CHILD, there would be no additions to your grocery bill. WITH A CHILD, there IS. That YOU feel these should not be counted so that all CS payors can suddenly experience a huge decrease in what they pay out, by discounting most every need of the child they could throw into this "you'd have it anyway" category, says more about you than you really needed to say. I already got the hint of what you are. But thanks anyway.

As for you and your ex, I could care less. Because you've shown me your true colors. You feel that just about EVERYTHING for a child is NOT extra so only ONE parent should have to pay it. IOW, all NCPs should get a free ride. But thanks for playing. Glad the world disagrees with you.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199434 - 03/03/07 09:40 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
"Hon, I once paid CS...willingly. I didn't need to be court ordered to do it"

I did not have to make a conclusion, you said that.

See thats what your not getting, of course it should be shared, but why would you think its extra, whats not extra when it comes to child support then. And you really did not need to resort to personal opinions about me in your answers. You are alluding to what I am, but why don't you say, why are you beating around the bush and tell me what my true colors are. Innuendo is not a nice thing. I don't think anyone should get a free ride. I personally think both parents should be repsonsible if anything is considered truly extra then it should be addressed as extra or maybe even call it extra-curricular. You did mention the law about having to get an extra room, what would have happened if you did not get the "extra" room. Maybe the world disagrees, but until you become the world spokesman, thank you for playing.

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#199435 - 03/03/07 11:20 PM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
>>>>>"Hon, I once paid CS...willingly. I didn't need to be court ordered to do it"

I did not have to make a conclusion, you said that. <<<<<

I'm sorry, but saying I paid CS willingingly without needing to be court ordered is NOT the same as "you mean you have a divorce decree that doesn't address child support". If you MUST know, I paid CS to my parents when my daughter was needing some specialized medical attention and stayed with them since my dad was disabled, home and more able to care for her on a full-time basis. And the CS her dad was SUPPOSED to pay was to be sent directly to them as well. But of course, they didn't get anything from him. And yes, I DID have a "divorce decree" that addressed the CS. He just wouldn't pay it.

>>>>>See thats what your not getting, of course it should be shared, but why would you think its extra, whats not extra when it comes to child support then.<<<<<

Actually it's what YOU'RE not getting. NO ONE said it was extra CS. Just that it is extra child expense. It is NOT something you would incur if you did NOT have a child. This started with someone asking what CS (CURRENT CS) covers. Someone else mentioned housing. To which it went off that CS shouldn't cover housing because they thought that (ALL) NCPs apparently would also have that cost, and you started arguing against having housing figured into CS. So which is it. Do you want housing taken out of CS, reduced CS across the board for everyone? Well, since you also said the food, utilities, etc. weren't extra, I supposed you want those also removed? At what point do you start calling things non-extra...when CS reaches zero? But NO ONE even ONCE brought up the notion of increasing CS to cover housing...just you.

>>>>>And you really did not need to resort to personal opinions about me in your answers. You are alluding to what I am, but why don't you say, why are you beating around the bush and tell me what my true colors are. <<<<<

Apparently I do, since you decided to spin this topic into something it wasn't and make it appear as if CPs were wanting CS increased to cover housing costs when that was NEVER mentioned. And I HAVE told you your true colors...CS payor looking to get a CS decrease for all NCPs. Otherwise, why would you have placed such a spin on this? From all appearances, you're trying to argue that housing (and in the end, utilities, food, etc.) should be removed from CS altogether. If not, then what the hell ARE you on about? Because if it were TRULY about not increasing CS to cover those costs, as was said, NO ONE has even broached that subject but you.

>>>>>I personally think both parents should be repsonsible if anything is considered truly extra then it should be addressed as extra or maybe even call it extra-curricular.<<<<<

ENTIRELY different topic from the housing. You're mixing two subjects. Purposely?

>>>>>You did mention the law about having to get an extra room, what would have happened if you did not get the "extra" room.<<<<<

CPS would have removed the child.

>>>>>Maybe the world disagrees, but until you become the world spokesman, thank you for playing.<<<<<

Until you figure out which topic you're speaking about, you're the ONLY one playing. But I'm onto your game.
_________________________
Char Fox

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#199436 - 03/04/07 12:04 AM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: almostheaven]
Redlegg Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 27903
I apologize for the willingly issue, my whole point is that it is CS, thats it, you pay for the same things you paid for when you were married, housing, food etc. It should be split accordingly, you should not suddenly get extra CS,(by extra, I mean what is considered beyond the needs) the child needed the same things when you were married that they do when your divorced. I just can't consider housing food and needs as extra. I too willingly pay it even when I don't need to. Because its the right thing to do. I never once considered what others do, I have been told I am stupid (by others besides you)for paying the CS when he lives with me, and I agreed to pay more than the state because it was again, the right thing to do. What I am about is that utilities, housing and food are exactly what CS is about and to me they are not extra. I never looked at them as extra when I was married, not when he lived with her for two months, and not since he has lived with me for the last 30 months. Again I apologize for assuming anything wrong, it is just my opinion. The whole extra cost about housing was brought up as the difference between a 1 and 2 bedroom house/apt. I didn't see it as extra because its not like anyone suddenly had this expense because they were divorced, the need was there during the marriage so I could not see it as extra. You mentioned that the law where you are at said you had to get an another room. Actually it kind of burns me up that anyone thinks of any part of CS as covering extra when it barely covers the usual needs. I probably got hung up on the word extra.

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#199437 - 03/04/07 12:34 AM Re: Sometimes they don't... [Re: Redlegg]
almostheaven Offline
Carpal \'Tunnel

Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 10468
Loc: West Virginia
Ok, so maybe I was reading you wrong. I've had enough people come around arguing to get out of support or reduce their support any way they can, that anytime I see someone arguing strongly against something that CS should cover, they seem to be in this category.

First, I don't call someone stupid for paying above guidelines unless they do it because they don't know any better and thought they had no other recourse. If they do it for their child, they're doing it for the right reasons, and if they have the extra to pay, good for them. I don't even have a problem with an NCP who CAN'T pay what is ordered. I have a problem with those who won't or those who try to lower CS below something reasonable or below guidelines when they CAN afford it and when the child is benifitting from it, just because they don't wanna pay their ex a dime.

Yes, it was the "extra" comment that derailed everything. I consider anything a child costs to be extra above and beyond what an adult alone would cost, and that "extra" cost should be adequately split between the parents accordingly.

As for the extra-curriculars. I figure if the child is doing them while in an intact family, they should continue them after and both split the costs IF feasible. If they were barely on the edge and now have two households, the activity might have to go. If the child was too young or the family was never intact, an activity should be considered according to income (as to whether the family can afford it) as a normal part of growing up. Multiple activities, no. But I think everything needs to be reasonable. I think all the petty bickering over the money is brought on by unreasonable CS orders and unreasonable parties (CPs and NCPs alike). It's the reasonable people who suffer because of it. IE: My ex unreasonably thought he shouldn't have to pay one penny for a child he decided he didn't want since I wasn't part of the package. So it was our daughter that suffered for it. I only felt he should pay half of her actual costs, which I figured out to be about $161/mo. plus $100/mo. daycare for her first 12 years. I paid my parents more than that.
_________________________
Char Fox

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